From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C2D13888F for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:35:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 43AA9E07D1; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:35:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ig0-f177.google.com (mail-ig0-f177.google.com [209.85.213.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B29E4E07C5 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:35:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by igbni9 with SMTP id ni9so210444igb.1 for ; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:35:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n4Kj3RwLprIT6wmNqn/FqnYiK+cnbXRoMYcHduFcp28=; b=DOiMkZp9iF53RFbaoNraUUrGL6MW+1D6IVLCz4U+qf1py+oorHlW/+Bpa8hvQqAgw0 c6xlwnNhCQ2Hrc1pXU03ZJ/hX7BEYj2cfM0NEmHPFLw+DrXEEtsqUtMs7qeAm9oiKSmr +N7euvNlp8y5wg3JZjiE+LhKfnA+z4fd6SF12onrati6QSzgce+gmY889tlRLREIKEuV I9B9yf3XH4O6OVn7FPBueELPdtzEkGhnd8YK3p6933aRde9ZKzwxg6n+O0IDHVv0RzL+ OMwv7NPHfs+VMo/yoLUjx5Wzerb6CzlIbYYm+gOrIWJu9lM5D6H9C0pcnosBIa5zKoHt kJ1g== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.4.65 with SMTP id i1mr9648948igi.0.1444383347017; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.79.103.70 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 02:35:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20151008203032.4d3fe6aa.mgorny@gentoo.org> References: <1904237.nU16iSOlTl@kailua> <20150930204510.7e0bd29f.mgorny@gentoo.org> <20151008154237.c5b94b546444d7204ab91a98@gentoo.org> <56166864.2050204@gentoo.org> <9C591B75-DE0D-4AB6-8A6E-89FA178513BF@gentoo.org> <5616855D.8000106@gentoo.org> <20151008203032.4d3fe6aa.mgorny@gentoo.org> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 05:35:46 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: h6N0lc_KmjCQO_2SvUQ4rSKdFBw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for Agenda Items -- Council Meeting 2015-10-11 From: Rich Freeman To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Cc: "Anthony G. Basile" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: fa8ec81a-acbe-4dcc-b969-ead51320ad68 X-Archives-Hash: e166dbe1a49075f8d52235f68ead3bc8 On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny = wrote: > > Thank all of your for your continuous support. I will not be deploying > any scripts to improve integration in any way. Ok, this makes this the second item on the agenda where the proponents essentially have announced an intention to quit before the meeting because of voiced disagreement. As with the other, I suggest we move forward and discuss/decide so that at least the issue has some closure and either Micha=C5=82 or others have a sense of what does and doesn't have support. Gentoo is a relatively large project. If this were a group of 5 self-selected developers maybe we could all just do our own thing and rely on the fact that we knew we agreed on everything before we started. If we had a big complex release process we could perhaps rely on the fact that revert wars and such aren't really visible to our users. We have neither of those, so we need to have at least a semblance of governance before we go making changes. In both of the cases at hand (dynamic deps and github integration) the proponents have known for many months that the issues were controversial. When you propose any change you're going to have to expect opposition. When you propose a controversial change you're deluding yourself if you think you'll avoid it. People have a right to voice contrary opinions with reasoned arguments. The fact that not everybody agrees with those arguments does not diminish their value. You do have a right to expect timely resolution of the issues, but the council meeting schedule isn't a mystery. We meet once a month per the wiki page, and the meeting chairs are all pre-announced. Your issue will be discussed on the lists before we meet, as a courtesy to the entire community so that we can make informed and reasoned decisions, and there is no appearance of insiders/etc. We just have too many users to go shooting from the hip on things that are directly visible to them, even if this might have been more fashionable at a time in the past. I appreciate the efforts individuals and teams go through to come up with new features, and seeing them criticized, perhaps unfairly, is no doubt difficult. However, there are others in Gentoo who contribute and they need us to have some kind of semblance of policy to do so. That includes teams like QA, or Comrel, or Infra, who don't want to be the referees in revert wars and battles over bugzilla configuration and so on. They count on some kind of semblance of order to do their jobs. So does the entire developer community, because in the end we're all trusting each other to cooperate. The Council doesn't operate solely as a popularity contest. We don't print out and weigh the emails for and against to make every decision. Bring your arguments to the lists. You don't have to have the last reply to every email to win. Indeed, you don't /necessarily/ need to reply to any of them to win. So, take a break from the argument if it is making your blood boil. Half the time when people seem to want to give up on issues it is in cases where 6/7 council members seem inclined to support them. You'll never persuade everybody, nor do you have to. --=20 Rich