* [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list
@ 2014-03-26 11:29 Ulrich Mueller
2014-03-26 11:53 ` Alexander Berntsen
2014-03-27 0:17 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Ulrich Mueller @ 2014-03-26 11:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev-announce, gentoo-project
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Hi,
So far most license discussions took place on the licenses@g.o alias
which makes it impossible to trace many license related decisions.
This isn't in line with the Social Contract which says that "we will
not hide problems".
We have therefore created a new gentoo-licenses mailing list for
discussion of packages' licenses and related issues. (Thanks to the
Infra team for setting it up.) To subscribe to the list, send a
message to gentoo-licenses+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org and reply to
the confirmation message. Postings will be archived at Gmane and at
The Mail Archive.
Please note that all legal issues other than licenses should still go
to the gentoo-project or gentoo-nfp lists.
Of course, the licenses@gentoo.org alias also still exists for topics
that shouldn't be discussed in public.
Ulrich
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list
2014-03-26 11:29 [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list Ulrich Mueller
@ 2014-03-26 11:53 ` Alexander Berntsen
2014-03-27 0:17 ` Rich Freeman
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Berntsen @ 2014-03-26 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
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On 26/03/14 12:29, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Of course, the licenses@gentoo.org alias also still exists for
> topics that shouldn't be discussed in public.
Team members: Please note that the *alias* should be CC'd when we do
upstream licence queries, since only subscribers may post to the
mailing list. Authoritative/official statements of public interest
should be forwarded to the mailing list, in order to become publicly
archived.
- --
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list
2014-03-26 11:29 [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list Ulrich Mueller
2014-03-26 11:53 ` Alexander Berntsen
@ 2014-03-27 0:17 ` Rich Freeman
2014-03-27 0:40 ` Robin H. Johnson
2014-03-27 1:34 ` Mike Frysinger
1 sibling, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-03-27 0:17 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:29 AM, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So far most license discussions took place on the licenses@g.o alias
> which makes it impossible to trace many license related decisions.
> This isn't in line with the Social Contract which says that "we will
> not hide problems".
> We have therefore created a new gentoo-licenses mailing list for
> discussion of packages' licenses and related issues. (Thanks to the
> Infra team for setting it up.)
So, I 100% support the concept here. However, there is one potential
wrinkle I can think of here, and I'd be interested in how other
distros like Debian handle it.
We're incorporated in the US, which is fairly well-renown for its
"strong" IP stance and litigious culture. That actually can be a
benefit to us since Gentoo is largely an IP-holding organization so
holding the IP in a venue where we can actually do something about
violations makes sense (which isn't to say there isn't benefit to
being incorporated elsewhere). However, it is also a two-edged sword
since accusations of infringement against us can cost us dearly in
time and money.
Is openly discussing a purported licensing problem something that
could be considered an admission of guilt in a court of law,
especially if officers, trustees, council members, or project leads
(who might be construed as officially speaking for Gentoo) are
involved in the conversation? I believe that lkml bans talk of
patents for just this sort of reason.
As I said, I'd be interested in the stance other distros take on this.
Now, I don't want the solution to be "hiding problems" or not being
open to broader participation. Maybe we just need ground rules like
being careful not to make statements like "Gentoo is breaking the law"
or "we are violating this license" and so on. It would be better to
say that "we MIGHT be in violation of a license" or "somebody claims
we are in violation of their license" or something like that. I'd
also suggest that if anybody from Gentoo is actually contacted by a
copyright-holder or a lawyer about a purported violation that this
first go straight to the trustees so that they can see legal council
before we engage in open discussion that might be more likely to end
up being cited in court as evidence that we did or didn't handle a
situation appropriately.
After all, the only body that can actually say with certainty that
Gentoo is or isn't breaking a law is an actual court. Anything else
is just opinion and speculation. We should be clear that discussion
really is just healthy debate and speculation, and in no way
represents any kind of actionable determination on its own. This is
why lawyers love words like "allegedly" or "purportedly" and so on -
claims are just claims, and we can talk about them without endorsing
them.
Bottom line is that I'd especially encourage anybody who is in a role
like an officer/trustee to just be careful about the language we use.
Sometimes I've seen in private conversation statements like "we're
technically violating the law" and such - I understand the spirit (we
DO want to follow the law), but statements like this said with the
best of intentions can end up being used against us. We can just as
seriously consider the matter while saying things like "it is possible
that a court might think that this is in violation of the law" and
being clear that our speculation/opinion is just that.
Just my two cents. I do fully support making this more open to the community.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list
2014-03-27 0:17 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2014-03-27 0:40 ` Robin H. Johnson
2014-03-27 1:34 ` Mike Frysinger
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Robin H. Johnson @ 2014-03-27 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 08:17:43PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Bottom line is that I'd especially encourage anybody who is in a role
> like an officer/trustee to just be careful about the language we use.
> Sometimes I've seen in private conversation statements like "we're
> technically violating the law" and such - I understand the spirit (we
> DO want to follow the law), but statements like this said with the
> best of intentions can end up being used against us. We can just as
> seriously consider the matter while saying things like "it is possible
> that a court might think that this is in violation of the law" and
> being clear that our speculation/opinion is just that.
Thanks for the reminder.
As one of the people on the licenses@ alias that often gives advice and
helps make decisions, I try to always include IANAL, but this should go
doubly for any postings we make to the list.
Of course, if somebody on the list DOES happen to be a lawyer, then
they don't need to use IANAL, and we have had developers in the past
that were actually lawyers.
If there are more lawyers lurking on this list, and are interested in
licensing issues [1], I encourage you to join the list and help us work
on issues as they are raised.
[1] I do fully understand that you might want to get away from "work",
and just be coding instead of doing anything like your dayjob.
--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list
2014-03-27 0:17 ` Rich Freeman
2014-03-27 0:40 ` Robin H. Johnson
@ 2014-03-27 1:34 ` Mike Frysinger
2014-03-27 8:36 ` Rich Freeman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Mike Frysinger @ 2014-03-27 1:34 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Rich Freeman
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Debian has been doing this for 15+ years. i don't see what's unique here.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/
-mike
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list
2014-03-27 1:34 ` Mike Frysinger
@ 2014-03-27 8:36 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2014-03-27 8:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Mike Frysinger; +Cc: gentoo-project
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Debian has been doing this for 15+ years. i don't see what's unique here.
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/
Which is why I asked the question. How do they handle discussions in
a manner that doesn't create liability for them? Do they just not
worry about this? Do they have guidelines for officers posting, etc?
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
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2014-03-26 11:29 [gentoo-project] New gentoo-licenses mailing list Ulrich Mueller
2014-03-26 11:53 ` Alexander Berntsen
2014-03-27 0:17 ` Rich Freeman
2014-03-27 0:40 ` Robin H. Johnson
2014-03-27 1:34 ` Mike Frysinger
2014-03-27 8:36 ` Rich Freeman
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