From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7C71382C5 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2018 22:22:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B7064E0BD9; Sat, 31 Mar 2018 22:22:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pl0-x234.google.com (mail-pl0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80855E0BA2 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2018 22:22:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl0-x234.google.com with SMTP id x4-v6so2009171pln.7 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:22:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=KbhWDJrqH3gIe02McfbAeNlv9NUMQXViKurxsudEvzQ=; b=KhbuXqCLRI74tTt9o+lmGeTsSlnqQWTtgWbPDPpUL4vHRocpAH2MJfYpUEm/LI6Jnz ewhHYQP+fe5d+xSOhpD4rkGehih+erAAFlJrYayFYL70WAUhomxNdJ/NQKzfBYKxdBNX 32kWa8mRorH3oLSaGs6bjx+oRw2jFo6NzIPswEhgGNYoPLtoj8xsVVIq1yGatIVAirwV 4hwSty1etCQfCNa3Y96NQ9JlAvPR8YcxoZ7QdbGC5RWtJUadv7wK5JYQNZFbRHVZJjHo 92SG1Ikhi80SrpG7rvLoQm8cgHR3NZjiEmkTHyDmc+Pijryq6XheB63sgAY07xcNtFDr ad9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=KbhWDJrqH3gIe02McfbAeNlv9NUMQXViKurxsudEvzQ=; b=a8xMukm6L1HayXgWE94Eo4XmWLD66gN8T0N4bIv1tcCLmlqsQfvf+hstAanfGoW66t 8rVXtFGDbhFrrUaUf437bwfq8fz9YR/JuUpyLG8xWnyTxL33r2UOKy4JcZpMDHvHpX1B GR8psyHkPERCs+qFzAdgvOw/Fd9tycgguo/etvxxige2o78lHTS+PRa5Rt1cqJf51or+ 8mXHKkRqHDAyK9Fncv72TlVbdm1+aRqXV8Gx5F6Pj6SL7ywxwMDgYP8z4gw290xcrgMa x/mGwvx6+OvguJtycoU8YN3eIFOxodJtTRm+QQCdP9lIbGbXhWpy+Ph4PUAWam+6pXbd d9KA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Ecp5SCJVboPyal2HYXMitcvu/9npaye/SU60dgtYbG6Ebn2g1t USobLAWgCNOhAX69pfMVUlJA1vRlFtCq8oXepTCD+IWj X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/BAfDaxO5vtSluVEKejMgnzVxNmtl9vm3ljDBrmNf8ir6f+uktD+jcR3dJZUPaAXOrZ3M2OW/+TZiPAVghJhM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:341:: with SMTP id 59-v6mr4183435pld.407.1522534955893; Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.236.174.22 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:22:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <23227.50997.942551.336507@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <11815711.Ukc4K8cNtV@porto> From: Rich Freeman Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:22:35 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5pCzDvWvUZPqqj88VuTTEhFTFTE Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Social Contract clean-up To: gentoo-project Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: ebf0cbbe-0511-45e5-8ead-aed19415fa2e X-Archives-Hash: acc82e8f2859a9de19e5d1fd4da686ec On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Daniel Robbins wrote: > On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: > >> >> You act as if Gentoo is doing something egregious here. In fact, I'm >> not aware of any organization that operates in the manner you suggest. >> If you were aware of one you'd be citing it instead of arguing in the >> abstract. > > > So you are unaware of any > organization that produces software which solicits feedback from the people > who actually use the software? EVERY organization does this. Find me one > that doesn't. The burden of proof is on you. You didn't propose soliciting feedback from users. You proposed giving non-contributing users the power to vote for members of the board of directors. As far as orgs that do not do this, I'll go ahead and cite a few: Software in the Public Interest (Debian, Wikipedia, etc) https://www.spi-inc.org/membership/guidelines/ (non-contributing members do not get to vote for the board) Ubuntu https://www.ubuntu.com/community/governance (Closest thing to a user rep there is the Community Council, which is only elected by what we would call developers.) https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers Funtoo Solutions (Couldn't find published bylaws, but with only one director named I have a pretty good guess as to how he was selected.) To avoid an extra reply, you clearly advocate giving users a direct vote in the governance of the organization in your original proposal. Quoting your original email: > Therefore, I propose that the Foundation have a new position of User Representative and that these officers have an official (voting) role in the Council decision-making process. > Encourage Gentoo users to become members of the Foundation through outreach and other initiatives. So, basically users become members. Members vote for Trustees. Trustees appoint User Representative. User Representative gets to vote in Council decision-making, and Trustees get to remove Council members in your proposal. The key part of the above is users becoming Foundation members, who ultimately govern the Foundation through their representatives, the Trustees. In any case, my point is basically that no organization I'm aware of allows non-contributing users to vote for their board of directors. Gentoo already has a path for contributing users to vote for the board. -- Rich