From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5087138334 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:19:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 79A9EE08EF; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:19:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pl0-f49.google.com (mail-pl0-f49.google.com [209.85.160.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17CD5E08ED for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:19:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl0-f49.google.com with SMTP id a7-v6so8482558plp.3 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=x4xg++yH4bUzDyVplfLXAtjGY/0hoatuP4jRBHGi6dE=; b=p1t6D00zsX7TzdZY8wqLEMNZb0TXDhEaZ6MrRqVS8D9uAupA1E7ZpbwhT7XxeN1Pim JP/lzJxmR1aLIdQLA7Gjvpd4gPy6WCp9C/sUBjZtY/jhKeqJkfwn17v5LHXfDXuojfCV Z3fUlJEmViZ+EFqhydVHvgx+15L86kGyIVVDUsG0VYuKQyMsddBsQcBaUszdDguS6h+b vkdKPPlxcFiWG2pydwjfX3Cw+wE+bRSllbbxywy3VOLBalY5CU0TJY9MbeFCNTUVH6/G leVPF5NbF//w7PtlNqzvT/LrjJRxNwnYZGUz1brQYW94660byWEy2Opq61ATAFOFmZKu V33Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E11KFZrW1fqKl3m415ohyxQaoeDJK4HAAhm90D11XQcn5yzLeFY DAT7f1OM3JPdGIyeGYwK0PJWoo7N4C23gMWVwvfm/Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKIppdukO5XlXO8o8yiRXIEcKVhwK5a9D/RcwtkcGUdAYrSx1+crs1raN7YghfxOLE4J2T12hbw6TU0D13cxYE8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:bd8f:: with SMTP id q15-v6mr15096770pls.161.1528651185564; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5810916.EmyZUXBcj5@pinacolada> <5384311.EBcQyDrdbO@pinacolada> <5276585.i7BZcjErNl@monkey> <2619723.dyicR4dehs@pinacolada> In-Reply-To: <2619723.dyicR4dehs@pinacolada> From: Rich Freeman Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 13:19:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Council meeting Sunday 10/June/2018 18:00 UTC To: gentoo-project Cc: bman@gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: 312d4811-3475-4997-a060-260f2a7bef1d X-Archives-Hash: 81e8e731c675396f167a7ede3c497b52 On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 12:34 PM Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > > I'm more worried that at the moment we're all checks and balances (or more > precisely, unclear areas of responsibility and unclear procedures), so that in > the end nothing gets done. > ++ This whole situation is in part the result of having two decision-making bodies with different constituencies, and perhaps even slightly different missions. Adding yet another decision-making body (literally a single body in this case) with yet another constituency and also somewhat independent is going to make the problem worse, not better. Checks and balances makes sense for governments, because a government can literally raid your house, seize your property, or lock you in prison. They also have endless funding available to pay as many levels of bureaucracy you might want to employ, and an entire army of people and businesses looking to profit from the checks and balances which help "make it work." You almost never see this kind of arrangement in any kind of private organization, whether for-profit or non-profit. You just have one ultimate decision-making body, and anything else serves at their convenience. It works because of competition - if your employer/vendor/whatever does something you don't like, you can just freely choose to leave and work for another. IMO this is part of why Gentoo is struggling here - other distros are less niche and can afford to fork when they disagree over issues. IMO one of the bigger challenges will be working with the umbrella group to make it clear who gets to appoint the liaison and so on. They probably could make suggestions in this area. -- Rich