From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1QsnCy-00060y-Ps for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 02:47:24 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BAE521C135; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 02:47:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-fx0-f53.google.com (mail-fx0-f53.google.com [209.85.161.53]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BC321C0D5 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 02:46:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxd23 with SMTP id 23so4225104fxd.40 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:46:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=c5KBX9jPygb68361mhsxVg3/IP8rt1s1wNgRl5SUHPI=; b=f0y0Sv4udBBzuaaTvd9JPR32oYJEFDCEu5FQ7uo1UktPwe/Hpm/51aONBKr3tqEqI6 1CNc/OFdgBUMwxtpw8Mf2j/Vy0N9hoIqx88Wz0wCHXON4YxHq0R3uZs0uCfy8Jyi5JH3 v6QmPCmbRp+tfpwQbIkpKHzH5Nlo2E614LDDk= Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.55.205 with SMTP id v13mr4736166fag.88.1313376419226; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.223.105.208 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:46:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E488238.4070004@gentoo.org> References: <4E47ADA0.2060906@gentoo.org> <201108141501.11949.vapier@gentoo.org> <4E488238.4070004@gentoo.org> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:46:59 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: k3kUXiWFfjwcbik7A6UiDYtaDXo Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council? From: Rich Freeman To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Archives-Salt: X-Archives-Hash: 319b00f49f34da36309dcaeffc8ded67 On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote: > in developer relation bugs, the accused should also be allowed to recuse > such double members; as > > "i'm not saying this as devrel member but..." > "i'm not saying this as council member but..." > > is constantly being used as weapon by selected people, making the whole > process of devrel unfair when other members get semi ignored I don't think the accused should have any such rights. I do think they (or their accusers) should have a right to a speedy appeal after any disciplinary actions are imposed or denied. Then whatever the decision of the Council is, the will of the Gentoo Developer Community has been done. That's why we elect them. Now, if people are somehow being denied an appeal then that is a different matter. Is your concern that non-council members of devrel feel like they have less say, since the decision can be appealed to council and so they're forced to more-or-less go along with what they feel the council will want? If so, then I'd say the system is working as intended. When a district judge is making a ruling, the first thing he does is sees what higher courts have ruled in the past. It is a waste of everybody's time for a judge to come up with a ruling that he knows will be reversed. The only reason we have lower courts is that it doesn't scale well to have every dispute heard by the highest court of the land. It is much the same with the Council. If the Council thinks that a certain devrel stance will improve the distro, then it is their place to make that request and enforce it via appeals if necessary. Face it, Gentoo is a pretty easy place to get something done as long as it doesn't involve stepping on everybody else's toes. Actually, most teams are good about cooperating - if I got pinged that one of my packages didn't work with the latest libfoo stable candidate I'd be sure to take a look at it, and treecleaners would step in if I didn't after a reasonable time. The only time we really need the Council is for the big decisions. And, those big decisions don't get made more effectively if everybody is questioning the right of anybody to make the big decisions. In the end, SOMEBODY has to make the last call. We might as well make it an elected body. Rich