* [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? @ 2020-06-26 10:47 Michał Górny 2020-06-26 12:23 ` Ulrich Mueller ` (4 more replies) 0 siblings, 5 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Michał Górny @ 2020-06-26 10:47 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1215 bytes --] Hello, Here's another question for the nominees. Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do with the Council matters. Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they have reasons enough to attack others? Should they not participate in flames, unless only to extinguish them? Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists? Is it good that he throws false accusations without verifying them? Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes by finding 'a common enemy'? Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo? Or should they maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after discrediting themselves in the middle of election? -- Best regards, Michał Górny [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 618 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 10:47 [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? Michał Górny @ 2020-06-26 12:23 ` Ulrich Mueller 2020-06-26 12:29 ` Jeroen Roovers ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Mueller @ 2020-06-26 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw To: Michał Górny; +Cc: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1432 bytes --] >>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020, Michał Górny wrote: > Here's another question for the nominees. > Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been > approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo > representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do with > the Council matters. > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should > lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they > have reasons enough to attack others? Should they not participate > in flames, unless only to extinguish them? > Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other > developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists? Is it > good that he throws false accusations without verifying them? > Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused > on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes > by finding 'a common enemy'? > Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo? Or should they > maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after > discrediting themselves in the middle of election? These sound like rhetorical questions to me. Can you tell us who they are directed at, please? (I can guess, but I may be wrong.) So, I am not going to answer. Ulrich [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 507 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 10:47 [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? Michał Górny 2020-06-26 12:23 ` Ulrich Mueller @ 2020-06-26 12:29 ` Jeroen Roovers 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Jeroen Roovers @ 2020-06-26 12:29 UTC (permalink / raw To: Michał Górny; +Cc: gentoo-project Hello Michał, On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:47:17 +0200 Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote: > Hello, > > Here's another question for the nominees. Allow me to intrude. > Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been > approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo > representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do > with the Council matters. Yes. > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should > lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe > they have reasons enough to attack others? Should they not > participate in flames, unless only to extinguish them? Yes. > Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other > developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists? Is it > good that he throws false accusations without verifying them? This is you exhibiting an example of the unwanted behaviour above? > Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused > on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes > by finding 'a common enemy'? This is you exhibiting an example of the unwanted behaviour above? Kind regards, jer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 10:47 [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? Michał Górny 2020-06-26 12:23 ` Ulrich Mueller 2020-06-26 12:29 ` Jeroen Roovers @ 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel ` (2 more replies) 2020-06-28 20:36 ` Aaron Bauman 2020-06-28 23:18 ` Andreas K. Huettel 4 siblings, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Thomas Deutschmann @ 2020-06-26 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4830 bytes --] Oh hi, someone is running his campaign again like previous years [1]. First he attacked project members working for Sony [2], then he started to attack Patrick and now, the person who shared his idea that Gentoo should be ruled by a triumvirate [3] which he later declared as an 'out-of-season' April fool after getting tremendous backlash is digging up old stuff about me in hope people have forgotten the details about. On 2020-06-26 12:47, Michał Górny wrote: > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should > lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they > have reasons enough to attack others? Should they not participate > in flames, unless only to extinguish them? You are demanding that council members should participate in mailing list discussions in the past [1]. But when someone is doing that and don't agree with you, you are immediately attacking people (you were told more than once that it is very hard to discuss with you). And if they reply to that attack in *any* way you blame them for participating in flame wars. So how should that work? > Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other > developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists? Is it > good that he throws false accusations without verifying them? The exact words I used [4] were > You are lacking humanity. I am curious why you bring this up again given that it was resolved and parts of Proctor did their job. Anyway, like you know, I am not a native English speaker. It's also not a secret that my English is not good at all. Once I was made aware that someone misunderstood what I wrote I clarified my words. But I still stick to my statement (meaning) today. And unfortunately the last year has confirmed all of this: May I remind you that everyone in this project should basically share same goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell me, you as someone who is really good in technical writing and almost perfect compared to myself in using English language, why you have to use terms like "exhibit" [5] which Cambridge dictionary explains as > a thing used as evidence (= proof that something is true) in a trial What is Gentoo for you? I hope most Gentoo developers agree with me that words like that aren't appropriate to describe *anything* in Gentoo. Heck, why are you even creating *cases* against people sharing same goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell us why you are the reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of most bugs filed by others. Tell us why you are collecting stuff against other project members at all. This is crazy. We are on the same project. We should share same goals. We agreed on the same code of conduct. When you feel the need to do anything like that then anything else went already wrong. I mean *really* wrong. Please tell us why you are attacking new Gentoo user posting to our public mailing list [6] for the first time? Sorry, I would really like to stand corrected. That I have to tell world, "He has changed" but I cannot. > Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused > on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes > by finding 'a common enemy'? ...said the one who has the longest track record of negative campaigning in Gentoo for how many years? Heck, why do have to do negative campaigning at all in a project like Gentoo? This is soooo wrong and makes me very sad to see. > Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo? Or should they > maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after > discrediting themselves in the middle of election? If you or anyone else don't like that I don't accept the behavior I listed above and that I won't keep my mouth shut whenever I am concerned how we as project interact with each other because I am somehow representing Gentoo, do NOT vote for me. The society itself is already brutalized. It is time to no longer tolerate such behavior. See also: ========= [1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/ab301f4500b144188fa708e96cc0c66e [2] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/da65e9b6aea6bd72a2b331942d710044 [3] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/d6fb0a63608e9175563b903b3b425491 [4] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/e659564c6377eef8f44d75ef666dd56a [5] https://bugs.gentoo.org/701536 [6] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/8513b97cb2eabec619e26602b0086015 -- Regards, Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5 [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 618 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann @ 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-26 15:24 ` Rich Freeman 2020-06-26 16:32 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-27 19:24 ` Michał Górny 2020-06-28 10:35 ` Mikle Kolyada 2 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2020-06-26 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Thomas Deutschmann [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 445 bytes --] > Tell us why you are the > reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of > most bugs filed by others. Err... how did you arrive at that? I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long ago). -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfridge@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 981 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel @ 2020-06-26 15:24 ` Rich Freeman 2020-06-26 15:53 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-26 16:32 ` Thomas Deutschmann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Rich Freeman @ 2020-06-26 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Thomas Deutschmann On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:57 AM Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote: > > > Tell us why you are the > > reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of > > most bugs filed by others. > > Err... how did you arrive at that? > > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of > statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long ago). > Frankly, if statistics like this do exist they shouldn't be the subject of public discussion on lists. An anonymous histogram on #of complaints for any dev might be interesting. (ie 5 unnamed devs had 3 complaints, 1 dev had 14, etc). However, unless we shift to a model where comrel complaints are public we shouldn't have people divulging information about how many complaints (qualitatively or quantitatively) any particular dev has filed or been the subject of. Nobody should even know that somebody has been the subject of a complaint. Everybody already sees how most devs conduct themselves in public as it is, they can judge for themselves if they are concerned with this. If somebody has been a menace in private comrel should be dealing with that outside the court of public opinion. -- Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 15:24 ` Rich Freeman @ 2020-06-26 15:53 ` Andreas K. Huettel 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2020-06-26 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Thomas Deutschmann, Rich Freeman [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 712 bytes --] Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 17:24:43 CEST schrieb Rich Freeman: > > Err... how did you arrive at that? > > > > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of > > statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long > > ago). > > Frankly, if statistics like this do exist they shouldn't be the > subject of public discussion on lists. Right, I fully agree with this. My point is merely that I do not know of the existence of any such statistics in the first place. And unfounded numbers should probably be avoided even more. -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfridge@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 981 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-26 15:24 ` Rich Freeman @ 2020-06-26 16:32 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 16:55 ` Brian Dolbec 2020-06-26 19:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Thomas Deutschmann @ 2020-06-26 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1075 bytes --] On 2020-06-26 16:57, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: >> Tell us why you are the >> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of >> most bugs filed by others. > > Err... how did you arrive at that? > > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of > statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long ago). To be fair, it was just a quick bugzilla search. I don't do statistics about that (note: I can't even do that even if I would like to because of missing permissions): Just do two searches, each with Product: Community Relations Changed: (is greater than or equal to) 2017-01-01 One with Reporter: (is equal to) m... and the other one with Reporter: (is not equal to) m... Of course you will have to drop some bugs from that list but I still believe it will proof that *small* point I made if you just scan the subjects and compare... -- Regards, Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5 [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 618 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 16:32 ` Thomas Deutschmann @ 2020-06-26 16:55 ` Brian Dolbec 2020-06-26 19:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Brian Dolbec @ 2020-06-26 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:32:27 +0200 Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote: > On 2020-06-26 16:57, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > >> Tell us why you are the > >> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject > >> of most bugs filed by others. > > > > Err... how did you arrive at that? > > > > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any > > kind of statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been > > removed long ago). > > To be fair, it was just a quick bugzilla search. I don't do statistics > about that (note: I can't even do that even if I would like to because > of missing permissions): > > Just do two searches, each with > > Product: Community Relations > Changed: (is greater than or equal to) 2017-01-01 > > One with > > Reporter: (is equal to) m... > > and the other one with > > Reporter: (is not equal to) m... > > Of course you will have to drop some bugs from that list but I still > believe it will proof that *small* point I made if you just scan the > subjects and compare... > > I think this thread should be closed before things get even worse. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 16:32 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 16:55 ` Brian Dolbec @ 2020-06-26 19:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2020-06-26 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Thomas Deutschmann [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1029 bytes --] Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 18:32:27 CEST schrieb Thomas Deutschmann: > On 2020-06-26 16:57, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: > >> Tell us why you are the > >> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of > >> most bugs filed by others. > > > > Err... how did you arrive at that? > > > > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of > > statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long > > ago). > > To be fair, it was just a quick bugzilla search. I don't do statistics > about that (note: I can't even do that even if I would like to because > of missing permissions): These are the bugs that were for whatever reason opened up with agreement of all participants. Newly filed comrel bugs are confidential and by default remain so. You've mostly discovered that Michał is more open about things than others. -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfridge@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 981 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel @ 2020-06-27 19:24 ` Michał Górny 2020-06-28 10:35 ` Mikle Kolyada 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Michał Górny @ 2020-06-27 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10461 bytes --] Hello, First of all, I'm really sorry to see that this mail doesn't seem to achieve the desired affect of making the nominees think twice about what they do. On the other hand, it seems that you've chosen that this is indeed the face you'd like us to see. This is really sad. If you read my mail, you'd notice that there are no names there. Even if you think it's obvious who I'm concerned about (it isn't to bystanders), the major difference is that if someone tries to look you up (say, a potential employer), he is unlikely to find my mail. On the other hand, you've chosen to tarnish my reputation in a way that's easily found. It's sad. On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 15:50 +0200, Thomas Deutschmann wrote: > someone is running his campaign again like previous years [1]. I have concerns about the people representing the distribution I've dedicated a lot of effort to. Is that forbidden? Are Council members beyond reproach? > > First he attacked project members working for Sony [2], Firstly, why do you consider that an attack? It is a legitimate concern about conflicts of interest, and as you can easily see there are other developers in Gentoo who share the concern to some degree. You can disagree with it but having a different opinion than somebody else's does not seem to me to be 'attacking' that person. Secondly, I don't see why you're singling out one particular company. My mail certainly doesn't do that, so it seems that you are putting words in my mouth, and I don't even understand to what purpose. > then he started > to attack Patrick and now, the person who shared his idea that Gentoo > should be ruled by a triumvirate [3] which he later declared as an > 'out-of-season' April fool after getting tremendous backlash Firstly, it was intended as a joke. You can believe it or not but I think you know me enough to realize that I wouldn't seriously consider this proposal possible within Gentoo. Why would I push for something that could risk putting Gentoo in hands of someone disagreeable? Secondly, I would suggest you read again wrt 'tremendous backslash'. The proposal got much more support than I expected. This pretty clearly suggests that people see that the things as they are now are far from perfect. > is digging > up old stuff about me in hope people have forgotten the details about. ...and I thought the second part was just last Saturday. I must be being delusional then. > On 2020-06-26 12:47, Michał Górny wrote: > > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should > > lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, > > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they > > have reasons enough to attack others? Should they not participate > > in flames, unless only to extinguish them? > > You are demanding that council members should participate in mailing > list discussions in the past [1]. But when someone is doing that and > don't agree with you, you are immediately attacking people (you were > told more than once that it is very hard to discuss with you). Don't you think that generalizations are harmful? Especially when one tries really hard to make the other party look bad and filters the data into the cases that support his cause. > And if > they reply to that attack in *any* way you blame them for participating > in flame wars. So how should that work? I don't really know what you're referring to. I suspect you might think of something else than I was referring to. However, in general don't you think that elected public representatives of Gentoo should show higher standards than lowly developers who resigned from political positions? > > Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other > > developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists? Is it > > good that he throws false accusations without verifying them? > > The exact words I used [4] were > > > You are lacking humanity. > > I am curious why you bring this up again given that it was resolved and > parts of Proctor did their job. Anyway, like you know, I am not a native > English speaker. It's also not a secret that my English is not good at > all. Once I was made aware that someone misunderstood what I wrote I > clarified my words. But I still stick to my statement (meaning) today. > And unfortunately the last year has confirmed all of this: > > May I remind you that everyone in this project should basically share > same goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell me, you as someone > who is really good in technical writing and almost perfect compared to > myself in using English language, why you have to use terms like > "exhibit" [5] which Cambridge dictionary explains as > > > a thing used as evidence (= proof that something is true) in a trial > > What is Gentoo for you? I hope most Gentoo developers agree with me that > words like that aren't appropriate to describe *anything* in Gentoo. > Heck, why are you even creating *cases* against people sharing same > goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Firstly, it was never my intention to offend anyone using that word, and I still don't really understand why people nitpick at that. As you're perfectly aware, I'm not a native speaker either and it is common for us, non-native speakers, not to be aware of specific associations of some terms. I have thought it sounds better than 'example'. I never expected to be bashed about that single word. Secondly, I would like to remind you that discussing restricted bugs on public mailing lists is not appropriate. > Tell us why you are the > reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of > most bugs filed by others. I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to answer to that. This single paragraph poses so many problems, I'm not even sure where to start. I am aware that some people were unhappy with me but I had no reasons to assume what you're saying. Nor I really understand how you could be in possession of such data, given that you're not a member of ComRel. This either means you've obtained access to restricted data that shouldn't be available to you, or you're guessing (?) from incomplete data. Both options are problematic: the former sounds like an abuse of power, the latter sounds like a quick way towards slander. Furthermore, whether this is true or not, I'm pretty sure we aren't supposed to discuss restricted ComRel bugs on a public mailing list. So why are you doing that? Now, as one of the Bugzilla admins I could technically access ComRel bugs and verify that. However, I've never done that as I consider that an abuse of power. > Tell us why you are collecting stuff against other project members at > all. This is crazy. We are on the same project. We should share same > goals. We agreed on the same code of conduct. When you feel the need to > do anything like that then anything else went already wrong. I mean > *really* wrong. Your claim sounds like I'm proactively collecting some 'stuff' against others. This is not true. Even if I wanted to, don't you think I have better things to do? I can't manage my ever-growing backlog, and the last thing I need is to monitor the activity of other developers. Now, if you're asking why I'm supporting my complaints against actions of other developers, then isn't the answer obvious? Last I checked, QA is supposed to work based on evidence and not unproven judgment. This means that if some developer is repeatedly causing problems and QA needs to act on it, it is necessary to collect some examples of these problems. However, believe me, I've never really 'digged' into stuff -- whenever I felt like QA really needs to act, I've been literally hit with the problematic commits. Because they actually broke stuff, because they caused warnings, because they affected my packages... > Please tell us why you are attacking new Gentoo user posting to our > public mailing list [6] for the first time? This was a misunderstanding, and it was resolved. Unless I'm mistaken, there are no hard feelings there. Can you say the same of your attacks? > > Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused > > on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes > > by finding 'a common enemy'? > > ...said the one who has the longest track record of negative campaigning > in Gentoo for how many years? Heck, why do have to do negative > campaigning at all in a project like Gentoo? This is soooo wrong and > makes me very sad to see. We do what we believe the best for the project. If I believe that a particular person has proven that he isn't a suitable candidate for a Council member yet he decides to stand for the election, how can I share my opinion positively? It's something that's negative by its sole nature. It's nothing personal. It is just a concern for the fate of the project. It is a concern that what is a verbal attack on a mailing list today will turn into bias during the Council meetings, and eventually into abuse of power. > > Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo? Or should they > > maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after > > discrediting themselves in the middle of election? > > If you or anyone else don't like that I don't accept the behavior I > listed above and that I won't keep my mouth shut whenever I am concerned > how we as project interact with each other because I am somehow > representing Gentoo, do NOT vote for me. > > The society itself is already brutalized. It is time to no longer > tolerate such behavior. Don't you think that it's better to improve the quality of communications by providing a good example rather than multiplicating the bad behavior? Usually violence leads to more violence. Well, unless the goal is to hope that one person takes one step too much first and the other gets the excuse to enforce disciplinary measures. Don't you think we are very much alike? I've been 'bullying the bullies' too in the past. I didn't ever consider it the right thing to do, though. It was an efficient way to reach the goal, yes, but not the right one. -- Best regards, Michał Górny [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 618 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-27 19:24 ` Michał Górny @ 2020-06-28 10:35 ` Mikle Kolyada 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Mikle Kolyada @ 2020-06-28 10:35 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1058 bytes --] Hello, Thomas On 26.06.2020 16:50, Thomas Deutschmann wrote: > What is Gentoo for you? I hope most Gentoo developers agree with me that > words like that aren't appropriate to describe *anything* in Gentoo. > Heck, why are you even creating *cases* against people sharing same > goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell us why you are the > reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of > most bugs filed by others. Could you please: - Stop appealing to the community by using forms like "tell us". Who are "us"? As long as I see, you are the only one questioning this. I believe others can ask themselves if they deem necessary. - Slandering people by using wishful thinking approach. As the ComRel lead I can assert that your statistics has nothing with the reality. I am therefore asking you to refrain from any strong statements as long as you are not in the possession of the full set of data. (No matter if this is about mgorny or any other member of the gentoo community). Thank you. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 10:47 [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? Michał Górny ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann @ 2020-06-28 20:36 ` Aaron Bauman 2020-06-28 23:18 ` Andreas K. Huettel 4 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Aaron Bauman @ 2020-06-28 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2078 bytes --] On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:47:17PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: > Hello, > > Here's another question for the nominees. > > Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been > approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo > representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do with > the Council matters. > > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should > lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they > have reasons enough to attack others? Should they not participate > in flames, unless only to extinguish them? > I don't believe anyone should *attack* others. As far as being a "pillar of the community" let us remember that each of us are human. We have faults, but overall individuals should strive to lead by example. If they are in the wrong then they should take responsibility. If they wronged someone else then they should make that apology to them. > Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other > developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists? Is it > good that he throws false accusations without verifying them? > Of course not, but again we are human and we often let things get the best of us. The appropriate course of action here is to right that wrong... some will and some won't. > Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused > on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes > by finding 'a common enemy'? > > Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo? Or should they > maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after > discrediting themselves in the middle of election? > A choice to remove oneself from the election is purely up to that individual. Should the circumstances be significant enough (and without going over "what if's?") then they should absolutely do so. "to err is human..." -- Cheers, Aaron [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? 2020-06-26 10:47 [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? Michał Górny ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2020-06-28 20:36 ` Aaron Bauman @ 2020-06-28 23:18 ` Andreas K. Huettel 4 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2020-06-28 23:18 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Michał Górny > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should > lead the community by example? Should their reputation be untainted, > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they > have reasons enough to attack others? Yes. That said, one of the reasons for me personally to leave ComRel was that I wanted to be more able to tell people my opinion (and not always have to force myself to do that hyper-diplomatically). ComRel is where standards should be higher than the Council still. If you can't keep disagreements within the team, you shouldn't be in it. If you can't behave in a way that you demand of others, you shouldn't be in it. -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfridge@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-06-28 23:18 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-06-26 10:47 [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community? Michał Górny 2020-06-26 12:23 ` Ulrich Mueller 2020-06-26 12:29 ` Jeroen Roovers 2020-06-26 13:50 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 14:57 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-26 15:24 ` Rich Freeman 2020-06-26 15:53 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-26 16:32 ` Thomas Deutschmann 2020-06-26 16:55 ` Brian Dolbec 2020-06-26 19:05 ` Andreas K. Huettel 2020-06-27 19:24 ` Michał Górny 2020-06-28 10:35 ` Mikle Kolyada 2020-06-28 20:36 ` Aaron Bauman 2020-06-28 23:18 ` Andreas K. Huettel
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