From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91CA3138334 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:40:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 398FDE0946; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 038B7E0943 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:40:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id w79so4195530oif.10 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 09:40:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2Qem97R9lujiPSPS9owIiEH2IMYEvj/XTB6EP31mtaM=; b=Q3P/gegQMxBmpfHNdgurQrGbY6RQuoo3TL5tVlCeM0Oq+kbllKK+WMlLaWUWQEUCZY 1bifoYU+yDDwHv6RtkXA+VifsIafmJ/q4/mzn1dlJ6RExaaei4Y58HNbm/rebq0ODImX Kj05lQxF8ul/jZKvkOCmb83z61CoQBgA11d84hTkoZIX72VAcBRxkXyTy2gaNg54b5+R Iwqoka/KohzMsG/sGuMpKyXADrg/SSM6fhoNJsbtFITOppQdwsQKb/pREPMqWZhCLs0+ HNlXcu4thsMmYzbN/MWsShBWkLEJDZ126ZvT4SxE4ngeleqj+HAPqJftwoivRbJiyS8t aVlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=2Qem97R9lujiPSPS9owIiEH2IMYEvj/XTB6EP31mtaM=; b=jwmpsoB3ZQ5EEFNjvJCD9wOguA90mNQK2rVHduAN90D4Uu/hiVYyqGDYMObhE2Shqu oRE7rYNvjk0c0BYUa4AWSd2buPkjw4/ASBc2eeKKK5XraF3nZFLpK5/GGkZavCd1zR6g spmMlEc8Gde9IhDaVfnCXwB0G+/V/vkbPYBAfTaiAy0xmi/D9LQlhLN1hxxGG4m1mXHW yrCKEyLU7zPrTdE8T9jqKMUVpPqVdayJCOUaKVDePSAlC/8VoPzbZfJxNjqYKulAgRJ7 3vCRy3xHNJZGRG8JM0/+03pKsoxBvt4+J13EMOJbKQ5f1n+N+YCxBZTlasfhmlll8T80 8ECA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUcdhgxfVYwZI/WuD2oBqSTp2FyC82/tRZovbkrYKGf5BniC3Y5 iFyOHf5o5AJoPbNNNcdWx+YZCqGQup2vZGHEgctpnKss X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwA2trCU8ukvsyRIstB4W7ZzdvuaKH5D60W76q5cFoFlnjWqTmhJDlH0nhXR2qYq9OAycEwaWggvEagZ84ow/8= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5050:: with SMTP id e77mr5379070oib.52.1560616816656; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 09:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Raymond Jennings Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 09:39:40 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Deferred decision: Forums (specifically OTW) To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fcc604058b5f6aa9" X-Archives-Salt: fa05e276-ac9b-4267-8d02-135d319a8e21 X-Archives-Hash: 44e227745e0ecc53394e3120e59d8a46 --000000000000fcc604058b5f6aa9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 8:53 PM desultory wrote: > On 06/12/19 22:36, Alec Warner wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 7:09 AM Rich Freeman wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:00 AM Alec Warner wrote: > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 4:13 AM Rich Freeman wrote: > >>>> > >>> > >>> (a) I believe that the CoC is a tool to achieve a goal. The goal is to > >> apply a policy to have a community where people feel its safe to > contribute. > >> > >> Also to have a community where people feel like they actually WANT to > >> contribute. > >> > >> Why would I want to be a part of an organization that is constantly > >> slinging mud on the mailing lists? Why would I even want to read > >> these lists? > >> > >> Ultimately the many volunteers who give their time to Gentoo deserve > >> to have a place where they can do it in reasonable harmony. Some > >> disagreement is inevitable and just a direct result of our mission. > >> However, there are many disagreements that could come up that have > >> nothing to do with our mission, and part of the reason for the CoC is > >> so that people understand that this just isn't the place to discuss > >> those other things. > >> > >>>> > >>>> Well, that is easy enough. If there isn't any legal reason to object > >>>> to a change, then don't. If there is, then please speak up before > >>>> somebody does something bad. > >>> > >>> > >>> I'm not convinced my duty as a trustee ends at legal. The *community* > >> has no representation on the Council at all (users don't get to vote) > and > >> so I struggle to see how the *community* is represented. > >> > >> So, first, you don't have to have a vote to be represented by somebody. > > > > > >> And, second, anybody in the community has the opportunity to vote by > >> contributing. > > > > > >> Not every voice is equally important to listen to, and the ones > >> casting the votes are arguably the voice that are most worth listening > >> to. > > > > > > > > > >>> To help Gentoo's development, the community provides a continuous > stream > >> of feedback and contributes to the various aspects of the Gentoo > >> distribution. > >> > >> Indeed, and all those who do contribute in this way already get to > >> vote for Council, and if somebody feels they have been missed they > >> should apply for dev status so that this can be fixed. > >> > >> In any case, the job of the Trustees is to facilitate Gentoo's > >> mission, not interfere with those chosen to lead it... > > > > > > So just to keep your IRC commentary on the ML record, you believe the > > Foundation should be run such that the board approves any council action > > provided its legal; whether or not the board believes the action > > facilitates Gentoo's mission, because in your words "anything else leads > to > > endless infighting between the two groups." > > > > We could update the mission to reflect this mode of operation; feel free > to > > propose an amendment or run for the board. Its not what I perceive the > > mission of the board to be though. > > > Since conversations from IRC are being pulled in, one point that you > mentioned in our recent discussion was that, at least by your > impression, some (unspecified) members of the council were actively > seeking to cause the council and trustees to vote in opposition to one > another. Given that, I have a question for you and for such council > members. > > Which council members appear to you to be attempting to cause a schism > between the council and foundation? > My personal point of view is that while council and trustees have different roles and should presumably focus on the respective responsibilities for those roles, and avoid stepping on each other's toes, I think it should also be born in mind that both of them exist for the service of the Gentoo distro. The council oversees cross-project issues and the trustees look after the foundation as stewards of its assets that are used, per its own paperwork, in support of its mission to support the distro. By analogy, a foot ball team has wide receivers, quarterbacks, and so on. Each of them has a different role to play, but they all part of the same team. I see council and trustees likewise, and though they may have distinct roles to play in the distro, both of them are allies because they serve the same cause. > To all such council members: what benefit would there be in such a > scenario? > > > -A > > > > > >> -- > >> Rich > >> > >> > > > > > --000000000000fcc604058b5f6aa9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 8:53 PM desultory= <desultory@gentoo.org> w= rote:
On 06/12/19 22:36, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 7:09 AM Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:00 AM Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 4:13 AM Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote: >>>>
>>>
>>> (a) I believe that the CoC is a tool to achieve a goal. The go= al is to
>> apply a policy to have a community where people feel its safe to c= ontribute.
>>
>> Also to have a community where people feel like they actually WANT= to
>> contribute.
>>
>> Why would I want to be a part of an organization that is constantl= y
>> slinging mud on the mailing lists?=C2=A0 Why would I even want to = read
>> these lists?
>>
>> Ultimately the many volunteers who give their time to Gentoo deser= ve
>> to have a place where they can do it in reasonable harmony.=C2=A0 = Some
>> disagreement is inevitable and just a direct result of our mission= .
>> However, there are many disagreements that could come up that have=
>> nothing to do with our mission, and part of the reason for the CoC= is
>> so that people understand that this just isn't the place to di= scuss
>> those other things.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, that is easy enough.=C2=A0 If there isn't any le= gal reason to object
>>>> to a change, then don't.=C2=A0 If there is, then pleas= e speak up before
>>>> somebody does something bad.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not convinced my duty as a trustee ends at legal. The = *community*
>> has no representation on the Council at all (users don't get t= o vote) and
>> so I struggle to see how the *community* is represented.
>>
>> So, first, you don't have to have a vote to be represented by = somebody.
>
>
>> And, second, anybody in the community has the opportunity to vote = by
>> contributing.
>
>
>> Not every voice is equally important to listen to, and the ones >> casting the votes are arguably the voice that are most worth liste= ning
>> to.
>
>
>
>
>>> To help Gentoo's development, the community provides a con= tinuous stream
>> of feedback and contributes to the various aspects of the Gentoo >> distribution.
>>
>> Indeed, and all those who do contribute in this way already get to=
>> vote for Council, and if somebody feels they have been missed they=
>> should apply for dev status so that this can be fixed.
>>
>> In any case, the job of the Trustees is to facilitate Gentoo's=
>> mission, not interfere with those chosen to lead it...
>
>
> So just to keep your IRC commentary on the ML record, you believe the<= br> > Foundation should be run such that the board approves any council acti= on
> provided its legal; whether or not the board believes the action
> facilitates Gentoo's mission, because in your words "anything= else leads to
> endless infighting between the two groups."
>
> We could update the mission to reflect this mode of operation; feel fr= ee to
> propose an amendment or run for the board. Its not what I perceive the=
> mission of the board to be though.
>
Since conversations from IRC are being pulled in, one point that you
mentioned in our recent discussion was that, at least by your
impression, some (unspecified) members of the council were actively
seeking to cause the council and trustees to vote in opposition to one
another. Given that, I have a question for you and for such council members= .

Which council members appear to you to be attempting to cause a schism
between the council and foundation?

My = personal point of view is that while council and trustees have different ro= les and should presumably focus on the respective responsibilities for thos= e roles, and avoid stepping on each other's toes, I think it should als= o be born in mind that both of them exist for the service of the Gentoo dis= tro.=C2=A0 The council oversees cross-project issues and the trustees look = after the foundation as stewards of its assets that are used, per its own p= aperwork, in support of its mission to support the distro.

By analogy, a foot ball team has wide receivers, quarterbacks, and so on.= =C2=A0 Each of them has a different role to play, but they all part of the = same team.=C2=A0 I see council and trustees likewise, and though they may h= ave distinct roles to play in the distro, both of them are allies because t= hey serve the same cause.
=C2=A0
To all such council members: what benefit would there be in such a scenario= ?

> -A
>
>
>> --
>> Rich
>>
>>
>


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