From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48121381F3 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:41:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA901E0B37; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:41:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com (mail-wg0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA742E0B35 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:41:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id m15so6238747wgh.7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:41:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=fWiiRIookVqM7Cc3ugILOPWaYlOvS5x9GnXc3vvD2Xc=; b=V4Ph1d+h0dVX9WZjx+2YDCN85o83QB5QIXt3aPmapdLCKu1FelyS9sHjZ4iDGAOuiH qTMOubpx13b+VBEl1uIjp29Qs0ZIWIlqxI6ccR9jiZtaMs2akm40rRu3aBnJVzbiGRer pzY5qKkl54jOAa9+WG9UmrHiMu+LgEtPOt8yJWopluIO6OOl8swQiW1kTtWisYOdQ7Y5 8Nj5fKXT6V4GudQ80WikZDQ6oliLT7tolYEfFUuvgwGyDFzXpzgk4IHVjwYAV0D6zjss xwaNMzEh7zzNYp27AH9B9lgyh8QstMmRmulyLfhyPl6VYu3W4rXksYLQZO74y7/ys2oV QqXQ== X-Received: by 10.194.119.8 with SMTP id kq8mr874178wjb.45.1379493661370; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: markos.chandras@gmail.com Received: by 10.194.58.74 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:40:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130918080219.GA22806@gentoo.org> References: <21020.30575.805569.383992@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <20130829152248.GA3432@shimane.bonyari.local> <1377796652.5477.15.camel@localhost> <1379258522.8240.3.camel@localhost> <523915A2.7090504@sporkbox.us> <20130918080219.GA22806@gentoo.org> From: Markos Chandras Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 09:40:21 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fu7nf42H1Ny_lrByg236CH3j3Tk Message-ID: Subject: Re: Daunting developer process? (was Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting) 2013-09-10 To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Archives-Salt: c71480d3-7da3-4c6d-bbe3-5953dd253b81 X-Archives-Hash: 6aaa65581b56c8fc3b453c791316d817 On 18 September 2013 09:02, Sven Vermeulen wrote: > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 09:53:22PM -0500, Daniel Campbell wrote: >> As a user, I've considered becoming a developer but the process is >> rather contrived and multi-tiered. It doesn't seem like you're becoming >> a developer through said process, but rather joining a fraternity. >> There's lots of bureacracy involved that really turns prospective >> developers off. I don't know how common it is, but if Gentoo has a lack >> of developers, there must be a clear reason as to why. Clearly Gentoo >> has a lot of avid users *and* developers, so if developers are needed, >> perhaps the process to become a developer should be improved. Why else >> would the distro be lacking devs if it has a bright and enthusiastic >> userbase? > > The process looks daunting at first, but in my opinion it is not as "hard" > as it is often seen. Yes, we work with questions & answers to make sure > proper knowledge is in place. But these questions are not all that difficult > if you already have experience with ebuild creation & development (assuming > you're talking about the ebuild developer quizzes, not the staff quizzes). > > Of course, if you have no experience with it and want to get developer > access, then immediately focusing on the quizzes is the wrong approach. Try > to help where possible with bug fixing and contributing ebuilds - you don't > need CVS (yeah, still CVS) access to do so. > > An important part of joining the Gentoo crew is to work with others - work > with your mentor, interact with the recruiters, etc - because, as with every > free software project, we are all a bunch of individuals whose actions can > impact others. > > Gentoo currently has 245 active developers. That is not a small amount. > Ubuntu is at 210, Debian has many more (I tried to parse > http://www.debian.org/devel/people and was over 2000). > > Using a different approach to gain more developers might have more impact > than you imagine on the quality of the distribution as well as the progress > it makes. If the distribution would be 12 developers, it wouldn't be all > that hard to make a good roadmap and focus areas. Twelve people can easily > decide amongst each other what to do. But 200+ developers is a different > ballgame (hence the need for "bureaucratic" things like the Gentoo Council) > where decisions need to be weighted and where every individual can > contribute (or block) to the progress of the distribution. > > Imagine what would happen if we had 500+ developers. > > Wkr, > Sven Vermeulen > We have been through the same discussion over and over again and it usually starts by users who think that the process is mostly non-sense and part of the 19th century. What Sven said is mostly true. Most users tend to focus too much on the "theoretical" part of the recruitment (aka the quizzes) but they don't actually see beyond that. The quizzes might be "hard" or "long" at first look, but *if* you have been part of the community for a not-so-long time, you will notice that you can probably answer all the questions within 2 hours tops! What this means is that, you can't just become a developer out of the blue with the expectation to be an easy process just because you understand what 'emerge' does and what package.accept_keywords is for. If this is how you think, then you clearly are not ready to become a developer. However, if you try to make some real contributions to the project, get involved with teams and the mailing lists, you will notice that most of the questions make sense, and having them in the quizzes is the correct thing. Of course, I don't expect my reply to prevent similar threads in the future but maybe someone could point "scared" users to this thread and make them realize that they need to do their homework before they go blame the process without concrete evidences. -- Regards, Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang