[gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Sven Vermeulen]

Hi all

The last few days I have been spamming #gentoo-wiki with numerous edits,
translation tagging, new pages, and so on, with the main goal to copy the
current Gentoo Linux handbooks to the Gentoo Wiki. Before doing the last
steps (i.e. updating links and marking the current handbooks as obsoleted) I
thought about informing the broader development community about the change.

You might ask "why move them to the wiki?" (or perhaps you just say "about
time" - in that case ignore the next few paragraphs and jump immediately to
"what is the result" further down in the mail ;-), well let me tell why.

First of all, the Gentoo Handbooks were the only user-oriented documents
that the Gentoo Documentation Project "manages" that were not on the Gentoo
Wiki yet. And although 'back in the days' the choice for the XML-based
documentation development was valid (offline development of documentation
was a primary concern) times have changed, as well as documentation
developer abilities.

The need to train users into the dark corners of GuideXML (and the almost
programmatic approach to the Gentoo Handbooks) pushes down hard on the
team's growth. And that in essence is the second reason as well: the Gentoo
Documentation Project is no longer the huge project it once was. We reduced
from over 20 authors/editors to only one or two active members - and even
those do not do it "full time" anymore. Moving towards a better known (and
popular) documentation platform makes sense.

Any request to update the handbook (we have a few bugs open on it) had to be
taken by those few documentation developers, whereas with the move to the wiki,
I hope that other developers would take up the opportunity to update the
documentation themselves. Especially for the architecture teams who would
like to update the Gentoo Handbooks with their specific installation
instructions will this be a blessing (I hope). Also the developers in charge
of the "additional sections" of the handbook, such as networking, can now
help update and maintain the documentation.

A third reason is that the current website runs an XSLT parser to transform
the documentation into HTML. The Gentoo Handbook being in GuideXML kept on
hindering any progress on the website development and future as it was a
blocker for potential infrastructural changes. With the move to the Gentoo
Wiki, this is one less concern to think about.

Of course, consolidating all documentation (including the handbook) to the
wiki provides a common platform for Gentoo's documentation development and
single writing style. And it gives a universal look and feel to the
documentation, instead of having two different views (GuideXML rendering and
Wiki rendering look different), which hopefully puts a bit less confusion to
the users.

An advantage is also that the links to the Gentoo Handbook become a bit
simpler. Consider the link to configuring GRUB2 for AMD64:

Current handbook:
https://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?part=1&chap=10#doc_chap2
Wiki handbook:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader#Default:_Using_GRUB2

Although a tad longer, the link is much more readable, and when pasted on
things like IRC users can immediately see what it is about.

So, what is the result of this move?

The various handbooks are available in their own namespace (with thanks to
Alex Legler for creating it as well as supporting the move):

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:Alpha
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:HPPA
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:IA64
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:MIPS
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC64
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:SPARC
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86

If I am not mistaken, these locations should be editable by developers and
trusted contributors (and if not yet then that is the idea to implement).

All handbooks use the same structure. In effect, there is lots of re-use of
documentation snippets (as was the case with the Gentoo Handbooks in
GuideXML). Although I did not implement the same "programming-like"
documentation development as was done with the GuideXML ones, the wikified
Gentoo Handbook uses transclusion (inclusion of other pages) and Semantic
MediaWiki for the dynamic generation and changes of documentation.

Unless people object heavily, I will start updating the GuideXML handbooks
to redirect the users to the wiki handbooks, as well as update the links on
the website and wiki articles.

Note that, when moved, the translations might take some time to catch up.
This is because the translated information (in GuideXML) cannot be easily
moved towards the wiki (with the move, texts have been updated as well to
reflect the wiki writing style), and because the wiki uses a translation
extension that supports parallel translation development - but different
than how GuideXML translations worked.

Users interested in the "development" side (what are the reused parts and so
on) can feed their lusts on
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Documentation/HandbookDevelopment

I hope this is a start of many updates and improvements. Feedback is always
welcome of course.

With kind regards

	Sven Vermeulen
	aka SwifT

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Manuel Rüger]

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Hash: SHA512

On 12.12.2014 16:30, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> The last few days I have been spamming #gentoo-wiki with numerous
> edits, translation tagging, new pages, and so on, with the main
> goal to copy the current Gentoo Linux handbooks to the Gentoo Wiki.
> Before doing the last steps (i.e. updating links and marking the
> current handbooks as obsoleted) I thought about informing the
> broader development community about the change.
> 
> You might ask "why move them to the wiki?" (or perhaps you just say
> "about time" - in that case ignore the next few paragraphs and jump
> immediately to "what is the result" further down in the mail ;-),
> well let me tell why.
> 
> First of all, the Gentoo Handbooks were the only user-oriented
> documents that the Gentoo Documentation Project "manages" that were
> not on the Gentoo Wiki yet. And although 'back in the days' the
> choice for the XML-based documentation development was valid
> (offline development of documentation was a primary concern) times
> have changed, as well as documentation developer abilities.
> 
> The need to train users into the dark corners of GuideXML (and the
> almost programmatic approach to the Gentoo Handbooks) pushes down
> hard on the team's growth. And that in essence is the second reason
> as well: the Gentoo Documentation Project is no longer the huge
> project it once was. We reduced from over 20 authors/editors to
> only one or two active members - and even those do not do it "full
> time" anymore. Moving towards a better known (and popular)
> documentation platform makes sense.
> 
> Any request to update the handbook (we have a few bugs open on it)
> had to be taken by those few documentation developers, whereas with
> the move to the wiki, I hope that other developers would take up
> the opportunity to update the documentation themselves. Especially
> for the architecture teams who would like to update the Gentoo
> Handbooks with their specific installation instructions will this
> be a blessing (I hope). Also the developers in charge of the
> "additional sections" of the handbook, such as networking, can now 
> help update and maintain the documentation.
> 
> A third reason is that the current website runs an XSLT parser to
> transform the documentation into HTML. The Gentoo Handbook being in
> GuideXML kept on hindering any progress on the website development
> and future as it was a blocker for potential infrastructural
> changes. With the move to the Gentoo Wiki, this is one less concern
> to think about.
> 
> Of course, consolidating all documentation (including the handbook)
> to the wiki provides a common platform for Gentoo's documentation
> development and single writing style. And it gives a universal look
> and feel to the documentation, instead of having two different
> views (GuideXML rendering and Wiki rendering look different), which
> hopefully puts a bit less confusion to the users.
> 
> An advantage is also that the links to the Gentoo Handbook become a
> bit simpler. Consider the link to configuring GRUB2 for AMD64:
> 
> Current handbook: 
> https://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?part=1&chap=10#doc_chap2
>
> 
Wiki handbook:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader#Default:_Using_GRUB2
>
>  Although a tad longer, the link is much more readable, and when
> pasted on things like IRC users can immediately see what it is
> about.
> 
> So, what is the result of this move?
> 
> The various handbooks are available in their own namespace (with
> thanks to Alex Legler for creating it as well as supporting the
> move):
> 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:Alpha 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:HPPA 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:IA64 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:MIPS 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:PPC64 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:SPARC 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86
> 
> If I am not mistaken, these locations should be editable by
> developers and trusted contributors (and if not yet then that is
> the idea to implement).
> 
> All handbooks use the same structure. In effect, there is lots of
> re-use of documentation snippets (as was the case with the Gentoo
> Handbooks in GuideXML). Although I did not implement the same
> "programming-like" documentation development as was done with the
> GuideXML ones, the wikified Gentoo Handbook uses transclusion
> (inclusion of other pages) and Semantic MediaWiki for the dynamic
> generation and changes of documentation.
> 
> Unless people object heavily, I will start updating the GuideXML
> handbooks to redirect the users to the wiki handbooks, as well as
> update the links on the website and wiki articles.
> 
> Note that, when moved, the translations might take some time to
> catch up. This is because the translated information (in GuideXML)
> cannot be easily moved towards the wiki (with the move, texts have
> been updated as well to reflect the wiki writing style), and
> because the wiki uses a translation extension that supports
> parallel translation development - but different than how GuideXML
> translations worked.
> 
> Users interested in the "development" side (what are the reused
> parts and so on) can feed their lusts on 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Documentation/HandbookDevelopment
>
>  I hope this is a start of many updates and improvements. Feedback
> is always welcome of course.
> 
> With kind regards
> 
> Sven Vermeulen aka SwifT
> 

Hello Sven,

thanks for moving the handbooks to the wiki!

Just two things I noticed:
Do you know if it's possible to get the same "full view" as with prior
xml pages?
https://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?full=1

In addition it would be great if we can export full viewed handbooks
as pdf/epub. I guess mediawiki could support that via extensions. Do
you have any plans for that?

Cheers,

Manuel
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 04:44:47PM +0100, Manuel Rüger wrote:
> Just two things I noticed:
> Do you know if it's possible to get the same "full view" as with prior
> xml pages?
> https://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?full=1

Possible? Perhaps, but it will not be as functional. With GuideXML we could
"programmatically" update links so that links between pages become a link
within a single page. With the wiki, this is no longer the case.

It is not too difficult to create a single-page "let's include all and
everything" if I can selectively ignore things (like the table of contents
and navigation), which is doable.

I'll think about it.

> In addition it would be great if we can export full viewed handbooks
> as pdf/epub. I guess mediawiki could support that via extensions. Do
> you have any plans for that?

We might focus in a later stage on the PDF/ePub generation like used by
wikibooks. However that needs to be weighted against the downside of
maintaining (and tracking security of) additional extensions in the wiki.

So yes, we might go towards that. But there are no exact plans on that yet.

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Alexander Berntsen]

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I had a quick look and did not immediately see a way to choose between
seeing one chapter per page or the entire handbook in one page.

If this is not presently possible, please bring back the old handbook
until it will be possible.

The wiki is not nice to use in elinks or lynx with one small section
at the time. Nor is it useful to make a printed version. I want a
hand*book*, not a handwiki.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

> The wiki is not nice to use in elinks or lynx with one small section
> at the time. Nor is it useful to make a printed version. I want a
> hand*book*, not a handwiki.

I see that Wikipedia has some tool for creating books from collections
of articles, maybe that could be used for creating a printed version?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Books
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Collection
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PDF_Writer

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 03:55:30PM +0100, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> > The wiki is not nice to use in elinks or lynx with one small section
> > at the time. Nor is it useful to make a printed version. I want a
> > hand*book*, not a handwiki.
> 
> I see that Wikipedia has some tool for creating books from collections
> of articles, maybe that could be used for creating a printed version?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Books
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Collection
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PDF_Writer

As mentioned before, yes there are ways to accomplish that. But as
mentioned, these extensions can't just be enabled and hoping for the best.
They'll need to be maintained, the resources on the server(s) need to be
available for the dynamic generation of books and perhaps some other things
that I am missing (I haven't managed a mediawiki server yet so I can't speak
from much experience).

However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and will look into
that first. It will not have working links for in-book navigation though but
it might already be enough for users who want everything on one page (esp.
those who want to print them out).

Thanks for the feedback!

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/12/14 16:40, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for all the work you have put in.

- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and will look into
> that first.

s/need/want

I think it is more important to migrate the handbook than to make it
work like a book.  As you pointed out it is not as well-maintained
today and if it were on the wiki there are many more who would be able
to contribute to it.

If there are some who really want to see it work like a book I'd
suggest that they take the lead on making this happen.

Yes, I realize that this is a temporary regression, but so is not
having anybody on the docs team working on the current handbook.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/12/14 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org>
>  wrote:
>> However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and will
>>  look into that first.
> s/need/want
Pointless distinction.

Please do not make the old handbook website inaccessible until this is
in place.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:02:57 +0100
Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 13/12/14 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org>
> >  wrote:
> >> However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and will
> >>  look into that first.
> > s/need/want
>
> Pointless distinction.

It's really not. Refusal to make changes that remove an obscure piece
of functionality is one of the reasons Gentoo has stagnated.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 13/12/14 17:27, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:02:57 +0100 Alexander Berntsen 
> <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 13/12/14 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> s/need/want
>> Pointless distinction.
> It's really not. Refusal to make changes that remove an obscure 
> piece of functionality is one of the reasons Gentoo has stagnated.
It is a subjective sensation whether you are feeling a "need" or
merely a "want". "need" vs. "want" becomes a pointless exercise in
semantics bikeshedding if I can just redefine your "needs" as "wants",
simply because I do not care about them,
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Alexander Berntsen
<bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 13/12/14 17:27, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:02:57 +0100 Alexander Berntsen
>> <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> On 13/12/14 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>> s/need/want
>>> Pointless distinction.
>> It's really not. Refusal to make changes that remove an obscure
>> piece of functionality is one of the reasons Gentoo has stagnated.
> It is a subjective sensation whether you are feeling a "need" or
> merely a "want". "need" vs. "want" becomes a pointless exercise in
> semantics bikeshedding if I can just redefine your "needs" as "wants",
> simply because I do not care about them,

I think the most practical definition of "need" is that it means that
you step up to do the work.

I don't mean to pick on you, but Ciaran has a point.  There are many
examples of cases in Gentoo where people don't want to step up and fix
things, because they're expected to maintain every corner-case
somebody bothered to add over the years when they do so.  They have an
itch to scratch, but they'd just as soon fork the thing instead of try
to fix it.  And on that note, for a bonus challenge go ahead and see
how many alternate Gentoo install handbooks you can find floating
around.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Samstag, 13. Dezember 2014, 17:27:40 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:02:57 +0100
> 
> Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On 13/12/14 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org>
> > > 
> > >  wrote:
> > >> However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and will
> > >> 
> > >>  look into that first.
> > > 
> > > s/need/want
> > 
> > Pointless distinction.
> 
> It's really not. Refusal to make changes that remove an obscure piece
> of functionality is one of the reasons Gentoo has stagnated.

++

(Just think of the git migration.)

(Cheers! / Prost! / На здоровье!)

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Markos Chandras]

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Hash: SHA512

On 12/13/2014 06:35 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Am Samstag, 13. Dezember 2014, 17:27:40 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:02:57 +0100
>> 
>> Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> On 13/12/14 16:53, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Sven Vermeulen
>>>> <swift@gentoo.org>
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and
>>>>> will
>>>>> 
>>>>> look into that first.
>>>> 
>>>> s/need/want
>>> 
>>> Pointless distinction.
>> 
>> It's really not. Refusal to make changes that remove an obscure
>> piece of functionality is one of the reasons Gentoo has
>> stagnated.
> 
> ++
> 
> (Just think of the git migration.)
> 
> (Cheers! / Prost! / На здоровье!)
> 
oh noes... let's not turn this thread into another "git migration"
topic. can we stay on-topic please?

https://imgflip.com/i/fauzy

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 03:40:35PM +0000, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> However, I do capture the need for an "all-on-one-page" and will look into
> that first. It will not have working links for in-book navigation though but
> it might already be enough for users who want everything on one page (esp.
> those who want to print them out).

I've been able to create all-in-one pages for each separate part. The links
are available on https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:Main_Page

I was not able to create a single one-page for the entire handbook (in other
words, it is one page for "Installing Gentoo Linux", one page for "Working
with Gentoo", etc.) due to restrictions in MediaWiki - I can imagine that
the multi-transclusion approach that we need for generating
architecture-specific handbooks takes up quite some resources on the
generation.

Hopefully this at least covers the most cases of users who want a
single-page view on the installation instructions (which I believe is the
most common one).

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Ben de Groot]

On 13 December 2014 at 21:05, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I had a quick look and did not immediately see a way to choose between
> seeing one chapter per page or the entire handbook in one page.

Is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Quick_install_guide not enough for your needs?
-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 14/12/14 14:57, Ben de Groot wrote:
> Is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Quick_install_guide not enough for 
> your needs?
No.

I like having a comprehensive book to lend friends and look at when
helping friends install Gentoo. This is not comprehensive enough for a
newbie.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Ben de Groot]

On 14 December 2014 at 21:59, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 14/12/14 14:57, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> Is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Quick_install_guide not enough for
>> your needs?
> No.
>
> I like having a comprehensive book to lend friends and look at when
> helping friends install Gentoo. This is not comprehensive enough for a
> newbie.

In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the wiki
is perfectly usable.

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Andrew Savchenko]

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Hi,

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 22:04:28 +0800 Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 14 December 2014 at 21:59, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > On 14/12/14 14:57, Ben de Groot wrote:
> >> Is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Quick_install_guide not enough for
> >> your needs?
> > No.
> >
> > I like having a comprehensive book to lend friends and look at when
> > helping friends install Gentoo. This is not comprehensive enough for a
> > newbie.
> 
> In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
> graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
> next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the wiki
> is perfectly usable.

No, this is not a solution, because on particular hardware live
media (live usb/cd/dvd/whatever) may fail with video or gui support.

I had such problem this year, when I had to install Gentoo from
LiveCD without ability to use any other host for support (reading
howtos, googling and so on). I used SystemRescueCD because of ample
set of debug, admin and analysis tools I needed to configure
system properly, but GUI was just a failure due to lack of nvidia
drivers out of the box. Of course, I can easily fix such issues
when fresh system is installed, but while it was being installed I
had to use what is available from the live media. And elinks was a
great help back there.

So it will be really nice to keep handbook copies outside of wiki
interface. Probably a reasonable compromise will be to keep
handbooks at the wiki, but to use some script to generate simpler
htmls for out of the wiki usage scope.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Matthias Maier]

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This discussion is getting absurd.

Centralizing the documentation (i.e. moving to the wiki in this place)
makes a lot of sense. If we loose some of the former layouts for a
moment, then that's the way it is.


And again, thanks for all the hard work that was put into the
documentation!

Best,
Matthias



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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Matthias Maier <tamiko@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> This discussion is getting absurd.
>
> Centralizing the documentation (i.e. moving to the wiki in this place)
> makes a lot of sense. If we loose some of the former layouts for a
> moment, then that's the way it is.
>

++

If necessary it could be stuck on the council agenda, but I'd be
shocked if the vote wasn't 7-0 to let it move it to the wiki with
whatever compromises are necessary to make it happen (this isn't
nearly as controversial as dropping changelogs when we move to git).
I'd suggest just moving forward - if anybody wants to force a council
vote they can stick it on the next agenda.

I'm all for having versions of the handbook available in any format
that people are willing to provide, including a hardcover tabletop
edition with glossy pages and a bronze Larry the Cow on the cover.  I
just think that the onus is on those who want such things to provide
them.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Jeff Horelick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2345 bytes --]

On 14 December 2014 at 09:22, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 22:04:28 +0800 Ben de Groot wrote:
> > On 14 December 2014 at 21:59, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > >
> > > On 14/12/14 14:57, Ben de Groot wrote:
> > >> Is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Quick_install_guide not enough for
> > >> your needs?
> > > No.
> > >
> > > I like having a comprehensive book to lend friends and look at when
> > > helping friends install Gentoo. This is not comprehensive enough for a
> > > newbie.
> >
> > In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
> > graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
> > next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the wiki
> > is perfectly usable.
>
> No, this is not a solution, because on particular hardware live
> media (live usb/cd/dvd/whatever) may fail with video or gui support.
>
> I had such problem this year, when I had to install Gentoo from
> LiveCD without ability to use any other host for support (reading
> howtos, googling and so on). I used SystemRescueCD because of ample
> set of debug, admin and analysis tools I needed to configure
> system properly, but GUI was just a failure due to lack of nvidia
> drivers out of the box. Of course, I can easily fix such issues
> when fresh system is installed, but while it was being installed I
> had to use what is available from the live media. And elinks was a
> great help back there.
>
> So it will be really nice to keep handbook copies outside of wiki
> interface. Probably a reasonable compromise will be to keep
> handbooks at the wiki, but to use some script to generate simpler
> htmls for out of the wiki usage scope.
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
>


I feel like we do not need to optimize for this case really. I feel that
the odds of installing Gentoo where you have no GUI (via either the LiveDVD
or SystemRescueCD), no smartphone to use to look at the wiki, no tablet to
use to look at the wiki (I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in the US,
you can get a brand-new Android tablet for $40 USD at a physical store
(less online) and in the UK you can find them under 50GBP), no spare
computers to use to look at the wiki are extremely unlikely.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Andrew Savchenko]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2604 bytes --]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:02:36 -0500 Jeff Horelick wrote:
> > > In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
> > > graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
> > > next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the wiki
> > > is perfectly usable.
> >
> > No, this is not a solution, because on particular hardware live
> > media (live usb/cd/dvd/whatever) may fail with video or gui support.
> >
> > I had such problem this year, when I had to install Gentoo from
> > LiveCD without ability to use any other host for support (reading
> > howtos, googling and so on). I used SystemRescueCD because of ample
> > set of debug, admin and analysis tools I needed to configure
> > system properly, but GUI was just a failure due to lack of nvidia
> > drivers out of the box. Of course, I can easily fix such issues
> > when fresh system is installed, but while it was being installed I
> > had to use what is available from the live media. And elinks was a
> > great help back there.
> >
> > So it will be really nice to keep handbook copies outside of wiki
> > interface. Probably a reasonable compromise will be to keep
> > handbooks at the wiki, but to use some script to generate simpler
> > htmls for out of the wiki usage scope.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
> >
> 
> 
> I feel like we do not need to optimize for this case really. I feel that
> the odds of installing Gentoo where you have no GUI (via either the LiveDVD
> or SystemRescueCD), no smartphone to use to look at the wiki, no tablet to
> use to look at the wiki (I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in the US,
> you can get a brand-new Android tablet for $40 USD at a physical store
> (less online) and in the UK you can find them under 50GBP), no spare
> computers to use to look at the wiki are extremely unlikely.

This case was really simple: use of any electronic devices aside
from PC in question was prohibited due to company's security
policies. In fact this is quite common case when we're talking
about business setups and not private workstations.

Also I'd like to note that smartphone is not solution for people
without perfect eyesight (e.g. me): reading too much text from small
screen is either painful (with small fonts) or inconvenient (with
large ones).

Please note I'm not saying "do not put handbooks in wiki" — this
is really a good idea to have all docs in one place; I'm talking
about some backup solution for such cases, like simple generated
htmls.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[malc]

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What about simple transclusion? [1] Example of first few handbook-chapters
at [2]
It's not pretty (the top TOC works, but the inline-toc on the
right-hand-side doesn't work) That could be prevented with some <noinclude>
directives on the source pages but I didn't want to trample over Sven.
Would that work? (And yes - a few other includes are broken because this is
rooted in my user-space and not under the handbook, but I think these
should work if a page of this type was included in the Handbook namespace.)

Cheers,
malc.

[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion
[2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Mlashley

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:02:36 -0500 Jeff Horelick wrote:
> > > > In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
> > > > graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
> > > > next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the
> wiki
> > > > is perfectly usable.
> > >
> > > No, this is not a solution, because on particular hardware live
> > > media (live usb/cd/dvd/whatever) may fail with video or gui support.
> > >
> > > I had such problem this year, when I had to install Gentoo from
> > > LiveCD without ability to use any other host for support (reading
> > > howtos, googling and so on). I used SystemRescueCD because of ample
> > > set of debug, admin and analysis tools I needed to configure
> > > system properly, but GUI was just a failure due to lack of nvidia
> > > drivers out of the box. Of course, I can easily fix such issues
> > > when fresh system is installed, but while it was being installed I
> > > had to use what is available from the live media. And elinks was a
> > > great help back there.
> > >
> > > So it will be really nice to keep handbook copies outside of wiki
> > > interface. Probably a reasonable compromise will be to keep
> > > handbooks at the wiki, but to use some script to generate simpler
> > > htmls for out of the wiki usage scope.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Andrew Savchenko
> > >
> >
> >
> > I feel like we do not need to optimize for this case really. I feel that
> > the odds of installing Gentoo where you have no GUI (via either the
> LiveDVD
> > or SystemRescueCD), no smartphone to use to look at the wiki, no tablet
> to
> > use to look at the wiki (I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in the
> US,
> > you can get a brand-new Android tablet for $40 USD at a physical store
> > (less online) and in the UK you can find them under 50GBP), no spare
> > computers to use to look at the wiki are extremely unlikely.
>
> This case was really simple: use of any electronic devices aside
> from PC in question was prohibited due to company's security
> policies. In fact this is quite common case when we're talking
> about business setups and not private workstations.
>
> Also I'd like to note that smartphone is not solution for people
> without perfect eyesight (e.g. me): reading too much text from small
> screen is either painful (with small fonts) or inconvenient (with
> large ones).
>
> Please note I'm not saying "do not put handbooks in wiki" — this
> is really a good idea to have all docs in one place; I'm talking
> about some backup solution for such cases, like simple generated
> htmls.
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Andrew Savchenko]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3837 bytes --]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 19:46:27 +0000 malc wrote:
> What about simple transclusion? [1] Example of first few handbook-chapters
> at [2]

Looks quite readable in elinks.

> It's not pretty (the top TOC works, but the inline-toc on the
> right-hand-side doesn't work) That could be prevented with some <noinclude>
> directives on the source pages but I didn't want to trample over Sven.
> Would that work? (And yes - a few other includes are broken because this is
> rooted in my user-space and not under the handbook, but I think these
> should work if a page of this type was included in the Handbook namespace.)

Well, it doesn't have to be perfect, it should be usable enough.
Looks like transclusion solves usability problem :)

> Cheers,
> malc.
> 
> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion
> [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Mlashley
> 
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:02:36 -0500 Jeff Horelick wrote:
> > > > > In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
> > > > > graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
> > > > > next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the
> > wiki
> > > > > is perfectly usable.
> > > >
> > > > No, this is not a solution, because on particular hardware live
> > > > media (live usb/cd/dvd/whatever) may fail with video or gui support.
> > > >
> > > > I had such problem this year, when I had to install Gentoo from
> > > > LiveCD without ability to use any other host for support (reading
> > > > howtos, googling and so on). I used SystemRescueCD because of ample
> > > > set of debug, admin and analysis tools I needed to configure
> > > > system properly, but GUI was just a failure due to lack of nvidia
> > > > drivers out of the box. Of course, I can easily fix such issues
> > > > when fresh system is installed, but while it was being installed I
> > > > had to use what is available from the live media. And elinks was a
> > > > great help back there.
> > > >
> > > > So it will be really nice to keep handbook copies outside of wiki
> > > > interface. Probably a reasonable compromise will be to keep
> > > > handbooks at the wiki, but to use some script to generate simpler
> > > > htmls for out of the wiki usage scope.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Andrew Savchenko
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I feel like we do not need to optimize for this case really. I feel that
> > > the odds of installing Gentoo where you have no GUI (via either the
> > LiveDVD
> > > or SystemRescueCD), no smartphone to use to look at the wiki, no tablet
> > to
> > > use to look at the wiki (I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in the
> > US,
> > > you can get a brand-new Android tablet for $40 USD at a physical store
> > > (less online) and in the UK you can find them under 50GBP), no spare
> > > computers to use to look at the wiki are extremely unlikely.
> >
> > This case was really simple: use of any electronic devices aside
> > from PC in question was prohibited due to company's security
> > policies. In fact this is quite common case when we're talking
> > about business setups and not private workstations.
> >
> > Also I'd like to note that smartphone is not solution for people
> > without perfect eyesight (e.g. me): reading too much text from small
> > screen is either painful (with small fonts) or inconvenient (with
> > large ones).
> >
> > Please note I'm not saying "do not put handbooks in wiki" — this
> > is really a good idea to have all docs in one place; I'm talking
> > about some backup solution for such cases, like simple generated
> > htmls.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
> >


Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:31:07PM +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 19:46:27 +0000 malc wrote:
> > What about simple transclusion? [1] Example of first few handbook-chapters
> > at [2]
> 
> Looks quite readable in elinks.
> 
> > It's not pretty (the top TOC works, but the inline-toc on the
> > right-hand-side doesn't work) That could be prevented with some <noinclude>
> > directives on the source pages but I didn't want to trample over Sven.
> > Would that work? (And yes - a few other includes are broken because this is
> > rooted in my user-space and not under the handbook, but I think these
> > should work if a page of this type was included in the Handbook namespace.)
> 
> Well, it doesn't have to be perfect, it should be usable enough.
> Looks like transclusion solves usability problem :)

I'm not sure why the discussion is still ongoing. The full-page handbooks
have been implemented on the wiki a few days ago already (see my message to
gentoo-project [1]). The redirects on the old handbooks have been put in
place to the wiki ones.

[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/4141

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Ben de Groot]

On 14 December 2014 at 23:02, Jeff Horelick <jdhore@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 14 December 2014 at 09:22, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 22:04:28 +0800 Ben de Groot wrote:
>> > On 14 December 2014 at 21:59, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > > Hash: SHA256
>> > >
>> > > On 14/12/14 14:57, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> > >> Is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Quick_install_guide not enough for
>> > >> your needs?
>> > > No.
>> > >
>> > > I like having a comprehensive book to lend friends and look at when
>> > > helping friends install Gentoo. This is not comprehensive enough for a
>> > > newbie.
>> >
>> > In such cases I would recommend a Live USB (or CD/DVD) that has a
>> > graphical environment, so that the user can keep a modern web browser
>> > next to a terminal window, to ease installation. In that case the wiki
>> > is perfectly usable.
>>
>> No, this is not a solution, because on particular hardware live
>> media (live usb/cd/dvd/whatever) may fail with video or gui support.
>>
>> I had such problem this year, when I had to install Gentoo from
>> LiveCD without ability to use any other host for support (reading
>> howtos, googling and so on). I used SystemRescueCD because of ample
>> set of debug, admin and analysis tools I needed to configure
>> system properly, but GUI was just a failure due to lack of nvidia
>> drivers out of the box. Of course, I can easily fix such issues
>> when fresh system is installed, but while it was being installed I
>> had to use what is available from the live media. And elinks was a
>> great help back there.
>>
>> So it will be really nice to keep handbook copies outside of wiki
>> interface. Probably a reasonable compromise will be to keep
>> handbooks at the wiki, but to use some script to generate simpler
>> htmls for out of the wiki usage scope.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Andrew Savchenko
>
>
>
> I feel like we do not need to optimize for this case really. I feel that the
> odds of installing Gentoo where you have no GUI (via either the LiveDVD or
> SystemRescueCD), no smartphone to use to look at the wiki, no tablet to use
> to look at the wiki (I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in the US, you
> can get a brand-new Android tablet for $40 USD at a physical store (less
> online) and in the UK you can find them under 50GBP), no spare computers to
> use to look at the wiki are extremely unlikely.

And it's not like the wiki is unusable in a text-based browser like
elinks. It may be a little more inconvenient, but we are really
talking about corner cases here.

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Handbooks moving to the wiki

[Tom Wijsman]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:30:40 +0000
Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org> wrote:

> copy the current Gentoo Linux handbooks to the Gentoo Wiki

That's awesome news! Congratulations. Thank you... :)