[gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[ajak]

From: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>

There are numerous projects that do not keep up with the GLEP's
requirement of yearly elections. Few people seem to think the
requirement is really necessary, as evidenced by the lack fo
elections, so loosen it to "as necessary".

Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/683934
Signed-off-by: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
---
 glep-0039.rst | 7 ++++---
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/glep-0039.rst b/glep-0039.rst
index 82bf1d9..293a7c7 100644
--- a/glep-0039.rst
+++ b/glep-0039.rst
@@ -117,9 +117,10 @@ A. A project is a group of developers working towards a goal (or a set
       out-of-date.)  If the Wiki page isn't maintained, it is presumed
       dead.
    *  It may have one or many leads, and the leads are
-      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
-      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
-      time.
+      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
+      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
+      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
+      project membership deems an election unecessary.
    *  It may have zero or more sub-projects.  Sub-projects are
       just projects that provide some additional structure, and their
       Wiki pages are defined as sub-projects of the parent project.
-- 
2.38.1

Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 08 Nov 2022, ajak  wrote:

> -      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
> -      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
> -      time.
> +      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
> +      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
> +      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
> +      project membership deems an election unecessary.

How would you reliably determine this, other than by having a vote?

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[John Helmert III]

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On Tue, Nov 08, 2022 at 09:17:34AM +0100, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 08 Nov 2022, ajak  wrote:
> 
> > -      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
> > -      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
> > -      time.
> > +      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
> > +      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
> > +      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
> > +      project membership deems an election unecessary.
> 
> How would you reliably determine this, other than by having a vote?

By any project member initiating the election process, I'd think. The
GLEP doesn't dictate anything about how elections have to happen, so
I'm not sure we need/want to add anything to that effect.

> 
> Ulrich



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Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[Michał Górny]

On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 10:59 -0600, John Helmert III wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 08, 2022 at 09:17:34AM +0100, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tue, 08 Nov 2022, ajak  wrote:
> > 
> > > -      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
> > > -      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
> > > -      time.
> > > +      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
> > > +      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
> > > +      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
> > > +      project membership deems an election unecessary.
> > 
> > How would you reliably determine this, other than by having a vote?
> 
> By any project member initiating the election process, I'd think. The
> GLEP doesn't dictate anything about how elections have to happen, so
> I'm not sure we need/want to add anything to that effect.
> 

I think the rough point behind requiring a periodic elections is to give
people an opportunity to issue secret votes against the current lead,
i.e. without requiring them to publicly oppose the lead.  I'm not saying
this is really necessary in the case of Gentoo, though.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[Matt Turner]

On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 12:46 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 10:59 -0600, John Helmert III wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 08, 2022 at 09:17:34AM +0100, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tue, 08 Nov 2022, ajak  wrote:
> > >
> > > > -      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
> > > > -      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
> > > > -      time.
> > > > +      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
> > > > +      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
> > > > +      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
> > > > +      project membership deems an election unecessary.
> > >
> > > How would you reliably determine this, other than by having a vote?
> >
> > By any project member initiating the election process, I'd think. The
> > GLEP doesn't dictate anything about how elections have to happen, so
> > I'm not sure we need/want to add anything to that effect.
> >
>
> I think the rough point behind requiring a periodic elections is to give
> people an opportunity to issue secret votes against the current lead,
> i.e. without requiring them to publicly oppose the lead.  I'm not saying
> this is really necessary in the case of Gentoo, though.

There's value in that, but prior to me pushing for the Elections team
to run the last base-system lead election, had any project election
actually had a secret ballot?

Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[Michał Górny]

On Wed, 2022-11-09 at 10:01 -0500, Matt Turner wrote:
> > I think the rough point behind requiring a periodic elections is to
> > give
> > people an opportunity to issue secret votes against the current
> > lead,
> > i.e. without requiring them to publicly oppose the lead.  I'm not
> > saying
> > this is really necessary in the case of Gentoo, though.
> 
> There's value in that, but prior to me pushing for the Elections team
> to run the last base-system lead election, had any project election
> actually had a secret ballot?

All the elections I've been running were via HeliosVoting, so yes, they
had.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[Florian Schmaus]

On 08.11.22 01:31, ajak@gentoo.org wrote:
> From: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
> 
> There are numerous projects that do not keep up with the GLEP's
> requirement of yearly elections. Few people seem to think the
> requirement is really necessary, as evidenced by the lack fo
> elections, so loosen it to "as necessary".
> 
> Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/683934
> Signed-off-by: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
> ---
>   glep-0039.rst | 7 ++++---
>   1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/glep-0039.rst b/glep-0039.rst
> index 82bf1d9..293a7c7 100644
> --- a/glep-0039.rst
> +++ b/glep-0039.rst
> @@ -117,9 +117,10 @@ A. A project is a group of developers working towards a goal (or a set
>         out-of-date.)  If the Wiki page isn't maintained, it is presumed
>         dead.
>      *  It may have one or many leads, and the leads are
> -      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
> -      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
> -      time.
> +      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
> +      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
> +      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
> +      project membership deems an election unecessary.
>      *  It may have zero or more sub-projects.  Sub-projects are
>         just projects that provide some additional structure, and their
>         Wiki pages are defined as sub-projects of the parent project.

How about additionally adding the reverse of "…if project membership 
deems an election unecessary., i.e., "Additionally, any member can 
request a lead election if the last election was more than 12 months ago."?

Btw, s/unecessary/unnecessary/ :)

- Flow

Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[John Helmert III]

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On Tue, Nov 08, 2022 at 09:38:36AM +0100, Florian Schmaus wrote:
> On 08.11.22 01:31, ajak@gentoo.org wrote:
> > From: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
> > 
> > There are numerous projects that do not keep up with the GLEP's
> > requirement of yearly elections. Few people seem to think the
> > requirement is really necessary, as evidenced by the lack fo
> > elections, so loosen it to "as necessary".
> > 
> > Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/683934
> > Signed-off-by: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
> > ---
> >   glep-0039.rst | 7 ++++---
> >   1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)
> > 
> > diff --git a/glep-0039.rst b/glep-0039.rst
> > index 82bf1d9..293a7c7 100644
> > --- a/glep-0039.rst
> > +++ b/glep-0039.rst
> > @@ -117,9 +117,10 @@ A. A project is a group of developers working towards a goal (or a set
> >         out-of-date.)  If the Wiki page isn't maintained, it is presumed
> >         dead.
> >      *  It may have one or many leads, and the leads are
> > -      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
> > -      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
> > -      time.
> > +      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
> > +      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any
> > +      time. Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if
> > +      project membership deems an election unecessary.
> >      *  It may have zero or more sub-projects.  Sub-projects are
> >         just projects that provide some additional structure, and their
> >         Wiki pages are defined as sub-projects of the parent project.
> 
> How about additionally adding the reverse of "…if project membership 
> deems an election unecessary., i.e., "Additionally, any member can 
> request a lead election if the last election was more than 12 months ago."?

I would've thought that was implied by "[elections] may occur at any
time", but I can add it.

> Btw, s/unecessary/unnecessary/ :)
> 
> - Flow
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 08 Nov 2022, John Helmert wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 08, 2022 at 09:38:36AM +0100, Florian Schmaus wrote:
>> How about additionally adding the reverse of "…if project membership 
>> deems an election unecessary., i.e., "Additionally, any member can 
>> request a lead election if the last election was more than 12 months ago."?

> I would've thought that was implied by "[elections] may occur at any
> time", but I can add it.

It would help clarifying the intent.

Also, I am wondering if we'd have to be more specific elsewhere.
For example, we'd still want projects like QA and Comrel to have their
elections yearly, right?

Ulrich

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[gentoo-project] [PATCH] glep-39: drop hard requirement of yearly lead elections

[John Helmert III]

There are numerous projects that do not keep up with the GLEP's
requirement of yearly elections. Few people seem to think the
requirement is really necessary, as evidenced by the lack fo
elections, so loosen it to "as necessary".

Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/683934
Signed-off-by: John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
---
 glep-0039.rst | 13 ++++++++-----
 1 file changed, 8 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)

diff --git a/glep-0039.rst b/glep-0039.rst
index 82bf1d9..16a4b5c 100644
--- a/glep-0039.rst
+++ b/glep-0039.rst
@@ -7,7 +7,7 @@ Type: Informational
 Status: Final
 Version: 2
 Created: 2005-09-01
-Last-Modified: 2019-11-07
+Last-Modified: 2022-11-17
 Post-History: 2005-09-01, 2006-02-09, 2007-10-12, 2008-01-19
 Content-Type: text/x-rst
 Replaces: 4
@@ -117,10 +117,13 @@ A. A project is a group of developers working towards a goal (or a set
       out-of-date.)  If the Wiki page isn't maintained, it is presumed
       dead.
    *  It may have one or many leads, and the leads are
-      selected by the members of the project.  This selection must
-      occur at least once every 12 months, and may occur at any
-      time.
-   *  It may have zero or more sub-projects.  Sub-projects are
+      selected by the members of the project.  This selection should
+      occur at least once every 12 months, but may occur at any time.
+      Leads may keep their position for more than 12 months if project
+      membership deems an election unecessary.  Additionally, any
+      member can request a lead election if the last election occurred
+      more than 12 months ago.
+   * It may have zero or more sub-projects.  Sub-projects are
       just projects that provide some additional structure, and their
       Wiki pages are defined as sub-projects of the parent project.
    *  Not everything (or everyone) needs a project.
-- 
2.38.1