From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A4C21382C5 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 01:50:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 145E9E092D; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 01:50:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2ADCE08E0 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 01:50:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id v22so13447821edt.9 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 17:50:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gentoo-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=N+ExIfhg4g2sjd7rzpE0TUrGH8uR3fFWn1Q2vkPQUw8=; b=FIiARjNQdoYd5LBL/AFJkLGcVhlThmVp3Dtgfv/bu8BNzTAcZTG6KKjJWSebUh02td SXsUttqxK6qk8l5kyOtTUAGiNPF2mHBjSAF+nmZesEAKKwAqUg4dOe2cvl13Jt5hlcCb tHxQ+wQnoIrUuFROwh3l8vVSpOw6tQX3mFRotLs1bRx9axpwdiY26Y47G9waqy7aNPCP msy5rrrGg5AjfjsbV/7ziEhIQirXOCHklVUvUzGU0UbzvavgGI4ovyghFe8Rrw+bXQWm yIbKpvuURi6oico2L2+kX9pSmx/sO9ySVfIeKKZzHfi0Bw1QSagj4rXS+uOpH+wdoYk1 c42w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=N+ExIfhg4g2sjd7rzpE0TUrGH8uR3fFWn1Q2vkPQUw8=; b=B6v4jE4UYYKrYGoD1vhQESrhfktKV8B7eTDQuWfztQcisZ08IDgVcox6b5ZjOrvExZ gYmt49M0TS9carZBs3g9qgpNo4w8D7ByHfJ67zFNkwtm3RRx7ilTI71rFZR7RGofFToj 4h6jJJTfx4S62j+YaT2dJZRcPjqMXbwE6dGsjNf+qbbv7z8FIU4qaqvgyMtp7aLY/gKy Z3XS/S7PyMhmastII7N0MDp/M/aB5HAevfj26K3x/BkE8L/LKthdALgtIj1jwNYxQo84 5GHEygSrtnaYIn1D39i9hfXPlf23mrTdcZyIdI9hBAyaQ5nf78vzRlyhhMkB7dkEiyWo dFqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530znAk9UvS+bByfsBMCQU/9cNF3wgepcy4OXss5O2ia283IhShW ZnyynIPyXWf/lEumQLCuwmuEjj/IzHMroCleQ4V3/nX+QdMLkpbi X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJws0Kqobpsa6zJtnjDeE3G/TzoEyLBqbxXTIvdrS+uDHN1a11IfnNgk3c4b6GMmdDOym7IMbUD0En33cgKuXZI= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:ce8a:: with SMTP id y10mr19026258edv.264.1607824242011; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 17:50:42 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2LFZC3RZ.WVSUWEDL.VQXYWEFC@CMM6QA7H.D55IMDXP.EKCHVXDO> <134682b4303fd9d0ed28c767decab89a2498e591.camel@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <134682b4303fd9d0ed28c767decab89a2498e591.camel@gentoo.org> From: Alec Warner Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 17:50:30 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Shutting down the Off the Wall (was: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items ...) To: gentoo-project Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce87b605b64ec0a7" X-Archives-Salt: 3fa87e4a-3bf3-49a5-aebe-c7a2d89d5b4b X-Archives-Hash: eac31502aa585757e3b2abcbd548fb4b --000000000000ce87b605b64ec0a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 2:23 PM Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny = wrote: > On Sat, 2020-12-12 at 14:42 +0000, Roy Bamford wrote: > > Now we have a council member appealing directly to council again ... > > that sends the message to the community, yet again, that the > > processes that council are supposed to enforce don't apply to > > council > > members. > > Will the damage from that message ever be undone? > > Is this really a message sent 'by the event', or a deliberate FUD > spread by people who don't like the message? Because when people start > disputing the process and not the actual arguments, the message I get > is 'they are right and we can't argue with that, so let's try to sweep > it under the rug'. Then we get walls of meaningless text, arguments > about the process, conflicts of interest, etc. > When a group uses their powers, IMHO, the process is important to provide a justification of using said powers. Otherwise we lose faith in the institution because instead of using its powers to solve problems, it uses its powers in an arbitrarily and poorly justified way. This is why people care about the process. I even agree we should do something about the forum; but my expectation is more messages like the one whissi wrote (where we actually attempt to resolve the issue) and less the dilfridge message. I assume Dilfridge did try to work with the forums-mods, but if he did it was not clear what was discussed, proposed, or otherwise. If I'm a council member, what facts am I supposed to use to make a decision? Certainly dilfridge's email is not sufficient to really make one one way or the other...there are not enough facts there to justify action IMHO. It's not even clear *who* owns the problem. If we had said "Hey forums team, you have a CoC problem in OTW, you have six months to implement moderation in OTW that meets our requirements or we will shut off OTW" then I think it clearly assigns the problem (ball in forum-mods court) and there is a clear timeline to resolve the issue and we could add more text around the actual requirements (and again if you reference whissi's latest mail you see more of this information and tone.) However in the previous bug report we didn't even accurately describe the problem, assign it to anyone, or provide any timeline to resolution. -A > > -- > Best regards, > Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny > > > > --000000000000ce87b605b64ec0a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 2:23 PM Micha=C5= =82 G=C3=B3rny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
On Sat, 2020-12-12 at 14:42 +0000, Roy Bamford wro= te:
> Now we have a council member appealing directly to council again ... > that sends the message to the community, yet again, that the
> processes that council are supposed to enforce don't apply to
> council
> members.
> Will the damage from that message ever be undone?

Is this really a message sent 'by the event', or a deliberate FUD spread by people who don't like the message?=C2=A0 Because when people = start
disputing the process and not the actual arguments, the message I get
is 'they are right and we can't argue with that, so let's try t= o sweep
it under the rug'.=C2=A0 Then we get walls of meaningless text, argumen= ts
about the process, conflicts of interest, etc.

When a group uses their powers, IMHO, the process is important to p= rovide a justification of using said powers. Otherwise we lose=C2=A0faith i= n the institution because instead of using its powers to solve problems, it= uses its powers in an arbitrarily and poorly justified way. This is why pe= ople care about the process.

I even agree we shoul= d do something about the forum; but my expectation is more messages like th= e one whissi wrote (where we actually attempt to resolve the issue) and les= s the dilfridge message. I assume Dilfridge did try to work with the forums= -mods, but if he did it was not clear what was discussed, proposed, or othe= rwise. If I'm a council member, what facts am I supposed to use to make= a decision? Certainly dilfridge's email is not sufficient to really ma= ke one one way or the other...there are not enough facts there to justify a= ction IMHO. It's not even clear *who* owns the problem.

<= /div>
If we had said "Hey forums team, you have a CoC problem in O= TW, you have six months to implement moderation in OTW that meets our requi= rements or we will shut off OTW" then I think it clearly assigns the p= roblem (ball in forum-mods court) and there is a clear timeline to resolve = the issue and we could add more text around the actual requirements (and=C2= =A0again if you reference whissi's latest mail you see more of this inf= ormation and tone.) However in the previous bug report we didn't even a= ccurately describe the problem, assign it to anyone, or provide any timelin= e to resolution.

-A
=C2=A0

--
Best regards,
Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny



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