From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32B77138334 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:07:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A57BE080E; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:07:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-vk0-x229.google.com (mail-vk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF384E0809 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:07:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 128-v6so8268013vkf.8 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:07:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=scriptkitty-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=oOI48mqgBL6nkorIYe7mRLpvy/hbipyDTIaREF2NKGY=; b=GewUcs9Ufg8A5RfLsb/gBRScIbfEexke9Mbp0mhxGKIE/HvS3pRSXuFraBHN+6MuEt nxU/vbUXivRc+CvIKsEVuco1FH4JFgvCExNd9b9Bmf48IF05zGWzEfpquP8E799QNbB7 A8AY7tVUXguOv3f3zL1JHv9QlHNNhu/mZKxi0Dhds0mXfYtqBDdL+wg6psMYyimlSNwO nE8m5OLfMM1SzTmptm8qcBImyiiudlc7aqi2iocYZey7Z9wD2PcO/RBLqr8gamU6/rC4 wIBeDL8Ntl0ANSlMeLhuDTBbTqXoWMydRQJAoLDl6F/V25CGaVO17F13g3kgDAyfMTzM iJ6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oOI48mqgBL6nkorIYe7mRLpvy/hbipyDTIaREF2NKGY=; b=ps9/GJhd9ob7xFqXUZHzwN6E8FTjsEXEWgl5MtuqxDZLjsVeJ7H3lSu81GEt8AteZQ Mn2WnpRpYIDaSYqjMHPIhUij/c35D/Vd3Wq27PR4heOheipiY1GkNsXwnG98TbGfaZLo v9s7g4i7g9xY9hqzg8WysnBlfjbsfcq5/kx1Z0r8TIltdDmG/eBkhLAhEtF4Wz740wXl N/sKU8l7pg5TgtNwI1czVuYbJ9NP/0hJTJToooLTXnyQUgpmjgiK3MtQc1yQ9Q5qp+rZ UQoHHYH/fEfh23yS6d6ZF6qwlgHlXDbY0Z6CbBrsEodwjRFzvFlIa/UPMjLmsvdcDXcJ khng== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0h1viEZ1Lvi7i9vvQ0S0mFy1AsIGMpBm8n3xTx0vnK/fMJ45Qo /UxW1XIVrGW18K+Z2WO4LUKmJfbEoVf5WY/4Ccboww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLhFbJ62d+bB4qxL+E92Fer8tnTAfLpPHZJsfhV6W45Z7WeRRmN1rht2dzGt+NepbWkoiIACj0kJXV7WM3ysMA= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:a102:: with SMTP id k2-v6mr5519114vke.118.1529258845418; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: antarus@scriptkitty.com Received: by 2002:ab0:4803:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:07:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [68.129.209.49] In-Reply-To: References: <20180616202634.GA29371@linux1.home> <1935290.nWKu69nTtg@pinacolada> <20180616232951.GA32738@linux1.home> <20180617014233.GA1567@linux1.home> <7aff3272-74c2-c5ed-92d8-fb1b4baa1eba@iee.org> <5fd69b7e-abf6-dfef-afe7-39402b8b0c68@iee.org> <20180617172604.GA6560@linux1.home> From: Alec Warner Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 14:07:24 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: r8SRaeD9yX4betH-lmnIYgttRA4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] William Hubbs council manifesto 2018-2019 To: gentoo-project Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000404dd3056eda5218" X-Archives-Salt: 50210a1c-3399-4f02-a24a-1bc95a969b4e X-Archives-Hash: b0fa8c779408b4aabe31dd49dec5e409 --000000000000404dd3056eda5218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: > On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM William Hubbs wrote: > > > > My opinion though is we should give the trustees time to catch up > > > > How much time? We're 14 years in, and Robin has been working on the > books for a few years I think. Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the > work he is doing, but I'm not convinced it is a one-person project, > and it doesn't end when the past is caught up. > I'm fairly confident we can fix the current tax problems (in the end, its a problem we can solve with money, and we have some money.) I'm less convinced the non-profit yields any value over other alternatives, and so from an effort-basis I feel its necessary to wind down and replace with something else. > > > > > Once that happens, I think it is better to work with them to choose the > > future path since they own the Gentoo trademark, name, logo etc [1]. > > > > Working with somebody isn't the same as deferring everything to them. > > The problem with leaving the fate of the Foundation entirely to the > Trustees is that there is a lot of selection bias at work. Trustees > are a bunch of individuals selected for their interest in running a > non-profit (for the most part, simply volunteering for the post is > sufficient to be voted in). Should we be surprised when they advocate > for continuing to run a non-profit? > I really don't think this is true. Its explicitly not true for me. I was a trustee because there were open slots and someone had to 'keep the lights on.' Other people who ran for the board have expressed similar sentiments. I am running again in the next election on a platform of dissolution (closing the foundation) which is again contrary to your argument. There is no point in continuing to run a non-profit that continues to nominally accrue risk with little or no upside. Eventually it will become so toxic that you will be unable to find anyone to run it (some may say this has already begun to happen.) This is evident partially by the board's reduction in numbers. Previously the board had 13 seats, then 7, then 5. I'm not superbly confident we will be able to fill 5 seats in the next election. > There is also no need to wait for the Foundation to fix everything > before working on a path forward. Just as individuals can use their > own property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their own > money to the Gentoo Foundation, so other entities can use their own > property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their money to > the Foundation. > I think some of the conflict is a result of communication style (America v European) and also the internet-based communication methods we use to meet and converse with each other. I've often pitched something else (audio or video) but have never reached consensus. This isn't to discount the actual area of conflict (e.g. Finances) but how ones communicate ones ideas matters a fair bit. -A > > -- > Rich > > --000000000000404dd3056eda5218 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>= wrote:
On Sun, J= un 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> My opinion though is we should give the trustees time to catch up
>

How much time?=C2=A0 We're 14 years in, and Robin has been worki= ng on the
books for a few years I think.=C2=A0 Don't get me wrong - I appreciate = the
work he is doing, but I'm not convinced it is a one-person project,
and it doesn't end when the past is caught up.
I'm fairly confident we can fix the current tax problems (i= n the end, its a problem we can solve with money, and we have some money.)<= /div>
I'm less convinced the non-profit yields any value over other= alternatives, and so from an effort-basis I feel its necessary to wind dow= n and replace
with something else.
=C2=A0

>
> Once that happens, I think it is better to work with them to choose th= e
> future path since they own the Gentoo trademark, name, logo etc [1]. >

Working with somebody isn't the same as deferring everything to = them.

The problem with leaving the fate of the Foundation entirely to the
Trustees is that there is a lot of selection bias at work.=C2=A0 Trustees are a bunch of individuals selected for their interest in running a
non-profit (for the most part, simply volunteering for the post is
sufficient to be voted in).=C2=A0 Should we be surprised when they advocate=
for continuing to run a non-profit?

I r= eally don't think this is true. Its explicitly not true for me. I was a= trustee because there were open slots and someone had to 'keep the lig= hts on.'
Other people who ran for the board have expressed si= milar sentiments. I am running again in the next election on a platform of = dissolution (closing the foundation) which is again contrary to your argume= nt. There is no point in continuing to run a non-profit that continues to n= ominally accrue risk with little or no upside. Eventually it will become so= toxic that you will be unable to find anyone to run it (some may say this = has already begun to happen.) This is evident partially by the board's = reduction in numbers. Previously the board had 13 seats, then 7, then 5. I&= #39;m not superbly confident we will be able to fill 5 seats in the next el= ection.


There is also no need to wait for the Foundation to fix everything
before working on a path forward.=C2=A0 Just as individuals can use their own property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their own
money to the Gentoo Foundation, so other entities can use their own
property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their money to
the Foundation.

I think some of the con= flict is a result of communication style (America v European) and also the = internet-based communication methods we use to meet and converse with each = other. I've often pitched something else (audio or video) but have neve= r reached consensus. This isn't to discount the actual area of conflict= (e.g. Finances) but how ones communicate ones ideas matters a fair bit.

-A
=C2=A0

--
Rich


--000000000000404dd3056eda5218--