From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1F33138334 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 17:53:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9450E0CBC; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 17:53:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lj1-x243.google.com (mail-lj1-x243.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 624CBE0CB9 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 17:53:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-x243.google.com with SMTP id n18-v6so18270421lji.7 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 09:53:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gentoo-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/iRtFmMtsVmsyFDlgK4Xi9iKSECxXGWMrpbIV19+iSw=; b=Qfrsr55XVdwRtTdlDOjwPL+ic1Cu/JuGz4VV3FgKseyJuVEZioZ3ALkkIero/m9fVt r7yNJ9mOjxZh4C+mE+CROpGwiuxYAB/waNe1W99oAkhgu1r+7DMRedBjPpqR0xE2rPHM zz11AwsWQU69u2zp/53dGE8ZGMrLNkrdMumIb1BRXfpWd6Hh4rVIXvrRU31Jssnr9FtO BESHLX+1f4jOZMZnjnw7lmgKIu8eoMlmQC4BKEthp22KXFFROrTrfS1lORvWuM38H/rF 2H0HnImrxYAhXfQPNgB+mPHLkB0OMy812kVs/2ioYquD7lF3r1EE07uSyu7dLvt27uQq 5x+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=/iRtFmMtsVmsyFDlgK4Xi9iKSECxXGWMrpbIV19+iSw=; b=BMtJG7CJLhJVPq+onn2skzuNl5hhhdQGzdfIO13E9aGoRV3HEwBMHalsMrzQ14KJuN 0i43k6wOYxZMSqOPHogxSxYotv+RnxxZNhkBy6FnkLVYipuSFyxLbqyf89h/jqFyTton 8K8Y03O6elelCfnd5eDbF93HsaB27jyfqzWJYSrDc8/KHJ/5uX0bjeiOd/q6DwCZJARu 716+JREIh4qVtotdL4dUGh9n+UVucGsQdTF3e8aillXPgmxRUfQSj6wiQuf91pGp8/Xf stojfK8e3StAAkU+qc5MgbdOp/KZOlJRMfCgx5z/+MYGuO0bQAHV1paSWjiB/ewDKzM4 rFyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeqlLkeYh7LVzXAUty5ZxTRFoXkPMMQqMWEoVM7CLzyMunZObva Ir042jStHqy4o/F4yDhjx5mzutEvY5R/rIh+lvVqsrA8KEQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN62Opo2958S6K+cHwcxkmyZgeIFeMhVBJHrfD1neT7qhH99m1ySrQeJELLhqfVA2KKb1oMi/wQgZfJJzsG0wRU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:c8:: with SMTP id 8mr21787643ljr.53.1548784402974; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 09:53:22 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alec Warner Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 12:53:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] What should the default acceptable licenses be? To: gentoo-project Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c6a7505809c7815" X-Archives-Salt: 65cddaf4-d2d8-4862-981e-74eb938d3481 X-Archives-Hash: 8a98db089d18ff612e3d68b6d42deecb --0000000000002c6a7505809c7815 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 11:54 AM Thomas Deutschmann wrote: > On 2019-01-28 23:27, Matt Turner wrote: > > It's very common to need firmware to use wired or wireless networking. > > I would not want to ship installation media without requisite > > firmware. > > I don't think that sys-kernel/linux-firmware would be affected. > > But if it would be affected, where's the problem? Just create > /etc/portage/package.license for that media. > > Again, the main motion is for users starting with a fresh stage3 image. > Gentoo is about choices. So the only thing which will actually change is > an additional prompt because we are raising awareness... > A few questions here: 1) Do the users not currently have a choice today? (e.g. do we need to populate the @nonfree license set?) 2) Are the users aware of the choice? I suspect this feels closer to your intent. While its perhaps technically possible to make an informed decisions on licensing we do not force users to make a choice, and so many accept the default. 3) Some Gentoo community members find the existing default problematic because it does includes nonfree software, and think Gentoo should ship with only free software by default. I think if there isn't a @free-only (or -@nonfree) item we should do the work to make that possible (so ensure 1 is implemented.) I think if we wanted to inform users about choices[0], we could set the default to "-*" and give users a set of choices with descriptions about each. This would require users to make an informed licensing choice by default; because the lack of a choice would prevent an install. It would do what you wrote though, and raise awareness about licensing in Gentoo (and OSS in general.) I personally am against making the default @free-only (or FSF or OSI approved, or whatever moniker you want to assign) but I'm obviously one of many and I'm sure there are developers who support this idea (see more below.) -A [0] I assert that users have a choice today (because they can change the variable) and if we made it default to @free-software users would still have a choice, and the awareness benefit is actually quite limited. I don't think having a default 'enables choice' at all, it just pushes a different ideology (whatever ideology is the default, because most users accept and use that.) Pushing an ideology is fine, but I would rather be up front about such things, vs trying to write a narrative that somehow making the default be "@free-software" somehow gives users more choices; because assuming the license group exists today, we are not adding choices at all. I think a @free default fits right into the Gentoo Social Contract and while I oppose it on a personal basis (because I think the result harms users) I do support it on an organizational basis. > > -- > Regards, > Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer > C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5 > > --0000000000002c6a7505809c7815 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 11:54 AM Thom= as Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote:
On= 2019-01-28 23:27, Matt Turner wrote:
> It's very common to need firmware to use wired or wireless network= ing.
> I would not want to ship installation media without requisite
> firmware.

I don't think that sys-kernel/linux-firmware would be affected.

But if it would be affected, where's the problem? Just create
/etc/portage/package.license for that media.

Again, the main motion is for users starting with a fresh stage3 image.
Gentoo is about choices. So the only thing which will actually change is an additional prompt because we are raising awareness...




=

I personally am against making the default=C2=A0@free-o= nly (or FSF or OSI approved, or whatever moniker you want to assign) but I&= #39;m obviously one of many and I'm sure there are developers who suppo= rt this idea (see more below.)

-A
=C2=A0=
[0] I assert that users have a choice today (because they can ch= ange the variable) and if we made it default to=C2=A0@free-software users w= ould still have a choice, and the awareness benefit is actually quite limit= ed. I don't think having a default 'enables choice' at all, it = just pushes a different ideology (whatever ideology is the default, because= most users accept and use that.) Pushing an ideology is fine, but I would = rather be up front about such things, vs trying to write a narrative that s= omehow making the default be "@free-software" somehow gives users= more choices; because assuming the license group exists today, we are not = adding choices at all. I think a=C2=A0@free default fits right into the Gen= too Social Contract and while I oppose it on a personal basis (because I th= ink the result harms users) I do support it on an organizational basis.



--
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5

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