From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F29EE138334 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:00:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE813E095C; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:00:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-it1-x144.google.com (mail-it1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BB7AE0917 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:00:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-it1-x144.google.com with SMTP id e25so10367591itk.3 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 06:00:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gentoo-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nnRC8YPILgI4YEt5lAGO+XYWvSTy9ApZ6Us8hqIN0iE=; b=exp0nEuXP1sNLeW54gdw9epJ6gvUiJX1bZNGMjfGAK6Ojl4KM9jmfLjb166dL5qRE1 A1cnIkzNvalwR8WMAGJL9JvQIhhOAMLqB5D6fBg/S+JNDaYs1gO/mBY4ClTCoOQf06BN IRvkjlZOJxNjyYhpKzmdOr0vLT7f2a5kdv8YDJxh0zLxq1DJOke25wZCOUstCrQlcrco 7mH8wyKVy0iBW60KymTdlr5mWLLvWhDGwu0AlFtArShyb34oiyrX/VJOb7nkFr6EsFqx +2Ue2na2xHYe/hKsMEuVM38VD6JfG44UuQkJomctCoambfxEYQcdFuetmkv+dRchYcOl cExA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nnRC8YPILgI4YEt5lAGO+XYWvSTy9ApZ6Us8hqIN0iE=; b=AWFcOQzucIg5BBatOPLRJk6mhiNiiZoqw/mjJKC5CVbjP9CcHVRGCsfaaHiWTs8l8E Pin98rAEFwn4ieAQx+ft7PoVv7v1N8T+5Hamwtz8JlmcqgZBP4XKLsUo4YqGW/LQ1lCp aSTihUMuV2u77DTt9bSmNGv48cFIYALAmMm+DPACqCrHNtQN8UjnMzNsFHXOvYbD7RvO nCzQygUXyQy5yyV0ZntguEldaEk+BVHp0KFeKFv9/IS1rcYKdL1BKDUvYICFzP56y6S3 ZmlUK5YNmfu782H6gQRn9DwzvzBkadGKGtQNkSOvN0z3/3I1R5PFroy41jpEzOqYEZQn G+yg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVc11DcKg3igl/SWV0rZwHWwFeYVhmCIUuJIARXxjJAqVUx9Btl U5Und7ZMcGUcGcQ3jMi+hVXKycjYqxuEMrriNP8hQy2XWxY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzm89Aj1ToEEHkd749TNNOUQelitBGy9WsLUFKCmcfyz34WpkeendiCDtKT6Es14lyYUd5ksq16ra32xLunHuk= X-Received: by 2002:a24:f6cb:: with SMTP id u194mr10916841ith.160.1560344453320; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 06:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alec Warner Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 06:00:39 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Deferred decision: Forums (specifically OTW) To: gentoo-project Cc: Dirkjan Ochtman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000de27a6058b2000b9" X-Archives-Salt: 42eafe96-9d72-4926-a40c-15fac9f12678 X-Archives-Hash: 5e5e96486710a49faf5472dd07471080 --000000000000de27a6058b2000b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 4:13 AM Rich Freeman wrote: > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:04 AM Alec Warner wrote: > > > > (i) I think you need to convince the existing forum-mods team that the > CoC matters, and that they should actually enforce it. > > Seems like we need to convince the Trustees of this as well... > 2 quick points then. (a) I believe that the CoC is a tool to achieve a goal. The goal is to apply a policy to have a community where people feel its safe to contribute. That means safe from harassment, where contributors feel free to speak their mind without being set upon. So when the CoC achieves this goal, its good; when it doesn't achieve this goal, its bad. That is why I think Gentoo needs a CoC; there is no intrinsic value in a CoC itself. Instead the value comes from the community using it to hold its members accountable to achieve the underlying goal. (b) I am but one human, the board is 5 humans, the council is 7 humans. I don't believe any of us use the forums and none of us are forums-mods. The people who *currently* today apply the CoC in the forums are the forums mods and they typically move the bad stuff to OTW. We need the support of moderators in whatever decision we make. Either we get consensus from the current moderator team, or we fire them and hire new moderators who will enforce whatever unilateral decision we make. I'm suggesting that the former (where we convince them our decision is correct and they should enforce it) is better than firing everyone and hiring new mods. > > > I want to desperately avoid an outcome where the Council votes to make > changes to the forum, but the board objects to said changes. > > Well, that is easy enough. If there isn't any legal reason to object > to a change, then don't. If there is, then please speak up before > somebody does something bad. > I'm not convinced my duty as a trustee ends at legal. The *community* has no representation on the Council at all (users don't get to vote) and so I struggle to see how the *community* is represented. "Gentoo lives for the community, by the community Gentoo strives to please its users. The Gentoo community is Gentoo's goal of life. Without community there is no Gentoo. To help Gentoo's development, the community provides a continuous stream of feedback and contributes to the various aspects of the Gentoo distribution. This cooperative model will remain valid for Gentoo's entire lifespan."[0] If we strive to please our users, I struggling to see why we would remove the entire forum (as was hinted at earlier.) [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_lives_for_the_community.2C_by_the_community > -- > Rich > > --000000000000de27a6058b2000b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 4:13 AM Rich = Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wr= ote:
On Wed, Jun= 12, 2019 at 6:04 AM Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> (i) I think you need to convince the existing forum-mods team that the= CoC matters, and that they should actually enforce it.

Seems like we need to convince the Trustees of this as well...

2 quick points then.

(a) I= believe that the CoC is a tool to achieve a goal. The goal is to apply a p= olicy to have a community where people feel its safe to contribute. That me= ans safe from harassment, where contributors feel free to speak their mind = without being set upon. So when the CoC achieves this goal, its good; when = it doesn't achieve this goal, its bad. That is why I think Gentoo needs= a CoC; there is no intrinsic value in a CoC itself. Instead the value come= s from the community using it to hold its members accountable to achieve th= e underlying goal.

(b) I am but one human, the boa= rd is 5 humans, the council is 7 humans. I don't believe any of us use = the forums and none of us are forums-mods. The people who *currently* today= apply the CoC in the forums are the forums mods and they typically move th= e bad stuff to OTW. We need the support of moderators in whatever decision = we make. Either we get consensus from the current moderator team, or we fir= e them and hire new moderators who will enforce whatever unilateral decisio= n we make. I'm suggesting that the former (where we convince them our d= ecision is correct and they should enforce it) is better than firing everyo= ne and hiring new mods.
=C2=A0

> I want to desperately avoid an outcome where the Council votes to make= changes to the forum, but the board objects to said changes.

Well, that is easy enough.=C2=A0 If there isn't any legal reason to obj= ect
to a change, then don't.=C2=A0 If there is, then please speak up before=
somebody does something bad.

I'm no= t convinced my duty as a trustee ends at legal. The *community* has no repr= esentation on the Council at all (users don't get to vote) and so I str= uggle to see how the *community* is represented.

&= quot;Gentoo lives for the community, by the community

Gentoo strives= to please its users. The Gentoo community is Gentoo's goal of life. Wi= thout community there is no Gentoo. To help Gentoo's development, the c= ommunity provides a continuous stream of feedback and contributes to the va= rious aspects of the Gentoo distribution. This cooperative model will remai= n valid for Gentoo's entire lifespan."[0]

If we strive to please our users, I struggling to see why we would remove = the entire forum (as was hinted at earlier.)

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