From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F50F1382C5 for ; Sat, 22 May 2021 16:37:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 47846E084A; Sat, 22 May 2021 16:37:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2832CE0837 for ; Sat, 22 May 2021 16:37:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id gb17so17056377ejc.8 for ; Sat, 22 May 2021 09:37:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gentoo-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=a5zBiitlgg60yk3h/mZRx1CUAJ/uWYfXf2xb9trWrjg=; b=k3nt1sAKbTT8k1txFmr1CQcOjsUhgGEvPqZjd/hFllgISAmB4YTCZD65fMylFxCL7S ehOnB0jfbo51M8xAlYwRkqlzqmEYLCmIpz9wlGL+9sa0SFDR0EfEt4FzlEmEDjEPnp2j 7rJWMC/VQIcOT3n/s1G03C60L/tnYcZh/V3TGwzM/WYWF3dSagZUr8rnB0ZWHRlY6QQq 9YvfTjcRnKWiQ0IYHrNbZqKGzxORg1dfomtC6y07wUSucytE5VjeHHQH8C5cVoonYhKa +W+MLsTMjekBW6kX/wfCqiMKdKbyOsDEfkoJjMrpbdZvOLZNiHoUmct8Gr6YAWZl2qjy BjWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=a5zBiitlgg60yk3h/mZRx1CUAJ/uWYfXf2xb9trWrjg=; b=lgG7ot/7EApYGjiBaZIY15sEAhEvXlmyuzU8SbrERLcr/YaNgYC5MZiEFvuNSS8B7p rl119A7GVk2pzxERiVziGMOuvMpR/vUA9S5u+n+LTtdxPzZ4ubzCymuyEelRSo61WQVK uvmFgDMIiO1AJIpApTdMYZNwfdubrUX5FJq+KE48sqrJfWQfQ9YFSnpDEDCAet8XcGo1 X3N7GQ8CE2I3GROVtlDBOjkKBZ/8GqfFh31WNLMoFoGLMYOtiwtUXsgSQIr/q4w7GfKd sOVwufsGjiAPq7Yi+R58uqRxQKLJbMh8XuqmD48WTVJtIrwYCEQUKeqUvEknCmfD5lk8 uaxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LkMlynid8+r9wiuoc109s/r8vXzX59qwyQErGlFD2UQ8HjryL +lxNLTzrhVj/4og9cZSoO7Oz03QfWdUXfbcjEmj6b03JvMUqLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyXmNmmvjH/Epz0pVwUv9L0gT9X0c7/TM68gV8iUmnapMaw1I+cievfPiBhQx/+lR67bAG/vzM3ydGsTIlts2s= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:7695:: with SMTP id o21mr15594763ejm.529.1621701448319; Sat, 22 May 2021 09:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <12C07334-EBD2-4132-BCAE-B72D000B2AFD@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <12C07334-EBD2-4132-BCAE-B72D000B2AFD@gentoo.org> From: Alec Warner Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:37:17 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary To: gentoo-project Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: b1695641-4376-4c70-89eb-a0bf650ccfbb X-Archives-Hash: 32ecc507aed71eaf676875c173aa8f54 On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:58 AM Sam James wrote: > > I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should di= scuss this on -project too. > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Sam James > Subject: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > Cc: council@gentoo.org > > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that = delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I think it's h= urting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, whic= h has recently become sparsely inhabited. > > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of= Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've= seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the cal= ls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera. So my biggest problem is again governance; is there any transparency on continuity of *Libera* or will someone just sell it again in 2 years? > > Reasons for migration to Libera: > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship = with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name > and some sponsored servers. > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as wa= s alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.) I'm not sure what this means; how is Libera 'the continuity choice'? Is it: Because the ex-freenode staff have asked us to move there? Because we have a strong relationship with that staff? Because many other projects are moving there? Some other reason? > > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera. > > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-= *) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions. > > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration= or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working = with exactly the same people on Libera who understand > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new clo= aks, channels, and other special arrangements. > > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freeno= de which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available t= o speak to. So part of my concern here is that these reasons are all mostly about groupcontacts (e.g. the 4-5 person team that manages our IRC presence) and doesn't talk much about the community (e.g. the thousands of people actually using IRC for stuff.) So why should the community move? I care more about them than about groupcontacts (no offense.) > > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/= administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other c= ontroversial > IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled individua= ls, they haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of working at Free= node given they=E2=80=99re > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*. Why is Rizon controversial? Note that freenode was attacked with spambots repeatedly in the past (GNAA, other attacks) and freenode admins struggled fighting the attacks for months. So why do we care about spambot attacks now, as opposed to in the past? Or are the attacks just a pretense we are using to move for other reasons? > > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody co= mpetent able to handle them on a network level.) > > Reasons against delay: > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we=E2=80=99re al= ready introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freeno= de to access Gentoo channels. How has it lost trust? > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support a= ctivity we're used to. > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet a= s are other project channels as the cost of =E2=80=9Ckeeping up=E2=80=9D wi= th activity > increases. I'm in the normal channels and I see activity; Are people talking on libera behind my back!? > 4) We=E2=80=99re not the only project to be moving. We=E2=80=99re far fro= m being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the = unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we=E2=80=99re in very good compa= ny. We=E2=80=99re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start. > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a v= acuum left by the lack of administration. > > Reasons against OFTC *for now*: > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it=E2=80= =99s _possible_ this can change in future) > > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of= SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ. > This is the general opinion in the =E2=80=9CIRC community=E2=80=9D too. N= ote that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time. What is the suboptimal outcome of this? I read this as "things are different from freenode" which is not the same thing as "key features of chanserv are missing." If they are missing, what are they? > > ---- > > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long befo= re this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I=E2=80=99d love to ac= tually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always = had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they= =E2=80=99re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenod= e right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much). > > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to mo= ve to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _so= me_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If = it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulou= s groupcontacts. > > I=E2=80=99d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and v= ote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow= (Sunday, 23rd May). > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Georgy Yakovlev > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST > To: Sam James > Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org > > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote: > ... snip > > I support holding emergency metting/vote. > > For others reading the thread. > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about= whenever we should > move in current situation. > > -- > Best regards, > Georgy > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Andreas K. Huettel" > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST > To: Sam James , gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > Cc: council@gentoo.org, David Seifert > > Reasons for migration to Libera: > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no > relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other > than the domain name > and some sponsored servers. > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as > was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own > infrastructure.) > > > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera. > > > I also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera. > > Also, WTF? https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611 > It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as fast as possible= . > > -- > Andreas K. H=C3=BCttel > dilfridge@gentoo.org > Gentoo Linux developer > (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > > On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode wrote: > > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote: > > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote: > ... snip > > I support holding emergency metting/vote. > > For others reading the thread. > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about= whenever we should > move in current situation. > > -- > Best regards, > Georgy > > > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote. > > > I, too, would like an emergency meeting for a decision to be made. > > Further, as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the > back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally support > > a) for Gentoo to generally move away from freenode (we can maintain > *some* presence there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of > trust in it in the community at large. > > b) for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff > relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already gone in to > setting up our presence there (channel registration, cloaks); as well as > the considerable number of users that have already moved in that directio= n. > > Cheers > -- > Sam Jorna (wraeth) > GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26 > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Seifert > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST > To: Sam James , gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > Cc: council@gentoo.org > > On Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote: > > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that = delay > is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I think it's > hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC > presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited. > > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief > of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC > -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I > trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera. > > Reasons for migration to Libera: > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no > relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other > than the domain name > and some sponsored servers. > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as > was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own > infrastructure.) > > > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera. > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Joonas Niilola > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > > On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James wrote: > > > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freeno= de which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available t= o speak to. > > > I don't think you're being fair with this. Of course it's empty because > the previous people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode staff > are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to talk to > even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty currently. > > (That being said the admins who left to Libera are the people we've > worked together for years) > > > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/= administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other c= ontroversial > IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled individua= ls, they haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of working at Free= node given they=E2=80=99re > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*. > > > Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while the old ones > leave. Still seems to work. > > Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with both ways. > > -- juippis > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Matthew Thode > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST > To: Georgy Yakovlev > Cc: Sam James , gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gen= too.org > > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote: > > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote: > ... snip > > I support holding emergency metting/vote. > > For others reading the thread. > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about= whenever we should > move in current situation. > > -- > Best regards, > Georgy > > > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote. > > -- > Matthew Thode (prometheanfire) > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Sergei Trofimovich > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST > To: Sam James > Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org > > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote: > > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that = delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I think it's h= urting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, whic= h has recently become sparsely inhabited. > > > Minor personal note: for some people (and projects) it's not just > switching IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely. > I personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will > stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for discussions. > > We will impact the community with any choice we do (or don't do) today. > > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of= Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've= seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the cal= ls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera. > > Reasons for migration to Libera: > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship = with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name > and some sponsored servers. > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as wa= s alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.) > > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera. > > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-= *) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions. > > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration= or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working = with exactly the same people on Libera who understand > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new clo= aks, channels, and other special arrangements. > > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freeno= de which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available t= o speak to. > > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/= administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other c= ontroversial > IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled individua= ls, they haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of working at Free= node given they=E2=80=99re > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*. > > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody co= mpetent able to handle them on a network level.) > > Reasons against delay: > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we=E2=80=99re al= ready introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freeno= de to access Gentoo channels. > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support a= ctivity we're used to. > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet a= s are other project channels as the cost of =E2=80=9Ckeeping up=E2=80=9D wi= th activity > increases. > 4) We=E2=80=99re not the only project to be moving. We=E2=80=99re far fro= m being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the = unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we=E2=80=99re in very good compa= ny. We=E2=80=99re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start. > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a v= acuum left by the lack of administration. > > Reasons against OFTC *for now*: > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it=E2=80= =99s _possible_ this can change in future) > > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of= SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ. > This is the general opinion in the =E2=80=9CIRC community=E2=80=9D too. N= ote that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time. > > > Minor personal note: > > For OFTC I'm using > https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/ > for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera: > https://libera.chat/guides/certfp > > I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the irssi > config that freenode requires: > https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi > > But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the difference. > > ---- > > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long befo= re this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I=E2=80=99d love to ac= tually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always = had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they= =E2=80=99re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenod= e right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much). > > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to mo= ve to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _so= me_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If = it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulou= s groupcontacts. > > I=E2=80=99d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and v= ote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow= (Sunday, 23rd May). > > > Thank you for listing the options explicitly! > > I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting tomorrow. > Don't know about the others. > > I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in -project > would be beneficial to at least have our options listed as wider > community sees it. > > Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's requirements > for official presence in communication platforms to consider them > official (and/or primary). That would ease reasoning about why exactly > Freenode does not suit us today and would simplify building a list > of available choices. > > -- > > Sergei > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Luca Barbato > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > > On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James wrote: > > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that > delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I think > it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC > presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited. > > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general > belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots > in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, > and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding > Libera. > > > Most irc clients make staying on both networks simple, given that all > the hard work (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done timely > we could just stay in both for the time being. > > Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat yet ? > > lu > > >