[gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[Sam James]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 19083 bytes --]

I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should discuss this on -project too.

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: council@gentoo.org
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> 
> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
> 
> Reasons for migration to Libera:
> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> and some sponsored servers.
> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
> 
> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
> 
> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
> 
> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
> 
> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> 
> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> 
> (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
> 
> Reasons against delay:
> 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
> 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> increases.
> 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
> 
> Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
> 
> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
> 
> ----
> 
> Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
> 
> All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
> 
> I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
> 
> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> ... snip
> 
> I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> 
> For others reading the thread.
> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> move in current situation.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Georgy
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: council@gentoo.org, David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> 
>>> Reasons for migration to Libera:
>>> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
>>> relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
>>> than the domain name
>>> and some sponsored servers.
>>> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
>>> was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
>>> infrastructure.)
>> 
>> I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> 
> I also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> 
> Also, WTF? https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611
> It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as fast as possible.
> 
> -- 
> Andreas K. Hüttel
> dilfridge@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Linux developer 
> (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" <wraeth@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> 
> On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode wrote:
>> On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
>>> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
>>> ... snip
>>> 
>>> I support holding emergency metting/vote.
>>> 
>>> For others reading the thread.
>>> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
>>> move in current situation.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Georgy
>> 
>> I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
>> 
> 
> I, too, would like an emergency meeting for a decision to be made.
> 
> Further, as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the
> back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally support
> 
>  a) for Gentoo to generally move away from freenode (we can maintain
> *some* presence there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of
> trust in it in the community at large.
> 
>  b) for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff
> relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already gone in to
> setting up our presence there (channel registration, cloaks); as well as
> the considerable number of users that have already moved in that direction.
> 
> Cheers
> -- 
> Sam Jorna (wraeth)
> GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: council@gentoo.org
> 
> On Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay
>> is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's
>> hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
>> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>> 
>> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief
>> of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC
>> -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I
>> trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
>> 
>> Reasons for migration to Libera:
>> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
>> relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
>> than the domain name
>> and some sponsored servers.
>> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
>> was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
>> infrastructure.)
> 
> I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> 
> On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James wrote:
>> 
>> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
>> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> 
> I don't think you're being fair with this. Of course it's empty because
> the previous people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode staff
> are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to talk to
> even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty currently.
> 
> (That being said the admins who left to Libera are the people we've
> worked together for years)
> 
>> 
>> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
>> IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
>> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> 
> Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while the old ones
> leave. Still seems to work.
> 
> Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with both ways.
> 
> -- juippis
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST
> To: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
> Cc: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
> 
> On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
>> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
>> ... snip
>> 
>> I support holding emergency metting/vote.
>> 
>> For others reading the thread.
>> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
>> move in current situation.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>> Georgy
> 
> I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Sergei Trofimovich <slyfox@gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
> 
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> 
> Minor personal note: for some people (and projects) it's not just
> switching IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely.
> I personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will
> stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for discussions.
> 
> We will impact the community with any choice we do (or don't do) today.
> 
>> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
>> 
>> Reasons for migration to Libera:
>> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
>> and some sponsored servers.
>> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
>> 
>> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
>> 
>> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
>> 
>> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
>> actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
>> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
>> 
>> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
>> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
>> 
>> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
>> IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
>> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
>> 
>> (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
>> 
>> Reasons against delay:
>> 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
>> 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
>> 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
>> increases.
>> 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
>> 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
>> 
>> Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
>> 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
>> 
>> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
>> This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
> 
> Minor personal note:
> 
> For OFTC I'm using
>    https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/
> for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera:
>    https://libera.chat/guides/certfp
> 
> I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the irssi
> config that freenode requires:
>    https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi
> 
> But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the difference.
> 
>> ----
>> 
>> Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
>> 
>> All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
>> 
>> I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
> 
> Thank you for listing the options explicitly!
> 
> I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting tomorrow.
> Don't know about the others.
> 
> I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in -project
> would be beneficial to at least have our options listed as wider
> community sees it.
> 
> Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's requirements
> for official presence in communication platforms to consider them
> official (and/or primary). That would ease reasoning about why exactly
> Freenode does not suit us today and would simplify building a list
> of available choices.
> 
> -- 
> 
>  Sergei
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> 
> On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that
>> delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think
>> it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
>> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>> 
>> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general
>> belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots
>> in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently,
>> and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding
>> Libera.
> 
> Most irc clients make staying on both networks simple, given that all
> the hard work (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done timely
> we could just stay in both for the time being.
> 
> Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat yet ?
> 
> lu
> 
> 


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 41548 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[Joonas Niilola]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1817 bytes --]

On 22.5.2021 14.57, Sam James wrote:
> I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should
> discuss this on -project too.
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *Sam James <sam@gentoo.org <mailto:sam@gentoo.org>>
>> *Subject: **[gentoo-core] Libera migration summary*
>> *Date: *22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST
>> *To: *gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org <mailto:gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org>
>> *Cc: *council@gentoo.org <mailto:council@gentoo.org>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay
>> is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's
>> hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
>> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>>

The strength of Freenode was definitely the ability to collaborate
between many FOSS projects easily, which also shared many knowledgeable
people between them. And our good relations with the network staff, that
has now migrated to Libera. Therefore I don't think, that setting up our
own Gentoo IRCd network would work very well for us, which has been
suggested. (bgo #791187)

Whatever is decided, I feel like it should be the best one considering
all FOSS projects. That's why it's better to have this conversation
publicly, hopefully without unrelated bikeshed. We should be where other
FOSS-liked projects and users are.

From what I've seen, at least these projects are *lurking* in Libera
already:
 - Blender (move confirmed?)
 - CentOS (move confirmed?)
 - Mageia
 - Neomutt
 - Postgresql
 - Slackware
 - Ubuntu (move confirmed?)
 - Wikimedia (move confirmed?)
 - ZNC (move confirmed?)

While other projects seem to be looking an alternative communication
media to IRC altogether (Fedora, Qt).

-- juippis


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 618 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[Alec Warner]

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:58 AM Sam James <sam@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should discuss this on -project too.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: council@gentoo.org
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>
> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.

So my biggest problem is again governance; is there any transparency
on continuity of *Libera* or will someone just sell it again in 2
years?

>
> Reasons for migration to Libera:
> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> and some sponsored servers.
> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)

I'm not sure what this means; how is Libera 'the continuity choice'? Is it:
Because the ex-freenode staff have asked us to move there?
Because we have a strong relationship with that staff?
Because many other projects are moving there?
Some other reason?

>
> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
>
> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
>
> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
>
> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.

So part of my concern here is that these reasons are all mostly about
groupcontacts (e.g. the 4-5 person team that manages our IRC presence)
and doesn't talk much about the community (e.g. the thousands of
people actually using IRC for stuff.) So why should the community
move? I care more about them than about groupcontacts (no offense.)

>
> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.

Why is Rizon controversial?
Note that freenode was attacked with spambots repeatedly in the past
(GNAA, other attacks) and freenode admins struggled fighting the
attacks for months. So why do we care about spambot attacks now, as
opposed to in the past? Or are the attacks just a pretense we are
using to move for other reasons?

>
> (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
>
> Reasons against delay:
> 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.

How has it lost trust?

> 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> increases.

I'm in the normal channels and I see activity; Are people talking on
libera behind my back!?

> 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
>
> Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
>
> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.

What is the suboptimal outcome of this? I read this as "things are
different from freenode" which is not the same thing as "key features
of chanserv are missing." If they are missing, what are they?

>
> ----
>
> Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
>
> All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
>
> I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
>
> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> ... snip
>
> I support holding emergency metting/vote.
>
> For others reading the thread.
> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> move in current situation.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Georgy
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: "Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: council@gentoo.org, David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
>
> Reasons for migration to Libera:
> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
> relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
> than the domain name
> and some sponsored servers.
> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
> was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
> infrastructure.)
>
>
> I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
>
>
> I also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
>
> Also, WTF? https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611
> It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as fast as possible.
>
> --
> Andreas K. Hüttel
> dilfridge@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Linux developer
> (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" <wraeth@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
>
> On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode wrote:
>
> On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
>
> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> ... snip
>
> I support holding emergency metting/vote.
>
> For others reading the thread.
> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> move in current situation.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Georgy
>
>
> I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
>
>
> I, too, would like an emergency meeting for a decision to be made.
>
> Further, as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the
> back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally support
>
>  a) for Gentoo to generally move away from freenode (we can maintain
> *some* presence there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of
> trust in it in the community at large.
>
>  b) for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff
> relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already gone in to
> setting up our presence there (channel registration, cloaks); as well as
> the considerable number of users that have already moved in that direction.
>
> Cheers
> --
> Sam Jorna (wraeth)
> GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: council@gentoo.org
>
> On Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay
> is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's
> hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>
> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief
> of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC
> -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I
> trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
>
> Reasons for migration to Libera:
> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
> relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
> than the domain name
> and some sponsored servers.
> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
> was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
> infrastructure.)
>
>
> I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
>
> On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James wrote:
>
>
> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
>
>
> I don't think you're being fair with this. Of course it's empty because
> the previous people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode staff
> are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to talk to
> even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty currently.
>
> (That being said the admins who left to Libera are the people we've
> worked together for years)
>
>
> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
>
>
> Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while the old ones
> leave. Still seems to work.
>
> Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with both ways.
>
> -- juippis
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST
> To: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
> Cc: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
>
> On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
>
> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> ... snip
>
> I support holding emergency metting/vote.
>
> For others reading the thread.
> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> move in current situation.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Georgy
>
>
> I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
>
> --
> Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Sergei Trofimovich <slyfox@gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST
> To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
>
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>
>
> Minor personal note: for some people (and projects) it's not just
> switching IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely.
> I personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will
> stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for discussions.
>
> We will impact the community with any choice we do (or don't do) today.
>
> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
>
> Reasons for migration to Libera:
> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> and some sponsored servers.
> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
>
> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
>
> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
>
> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
>
> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
>
> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
>
> (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
>
> Reasons against delay:
> 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
> 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> increases.
> 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
>
> Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
>
> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
>
>
> Minor personal note:
>
> For OFTC I'm using
>    https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/
> for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera:
>    https://libera.chat/guides/certfp
>
> I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the irssi
> config that freenode requires:
>    https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi
>
> But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the difference.
>
> ----
>
> Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
>
> All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
>
> I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
>
>
> Thank you for listing the options explicitly!
>
> I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting tomorrow.
> Don't know about the others.
>
> I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in -project
> would be beneficial to at least have our options listed as wider
> community sees it.
>
> Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's requirements
> for official presence in communication platforms to consider them
> official (and/or primary). That would ease reasoning about why exactly
> Freenode does not suit us today and would simplify building a list
> of available choices.
>
> --
>
>  Sergei
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org>
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> Date: 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST
> To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
>
> On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that
> delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think
> it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
>
> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general
> belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots
> in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently,
> and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding
> Libera.
>
>
> Most irc clients make staying on both networks simple, given that all
> the hard work (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done timely
> we could just stay in both for the time being.
>
> Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat yet ?
>
> lu
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[John Helmert III]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 22753 bytes --]

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 09:37:17AM -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:58 AM Sam James <sam@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should discuss this on -project too.
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> > Cc: council@gentoo.org
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
> 
> So my biggest problem is again governance; is there any transparency
> on continuity of *Libera* or will someone just sell it again in 2
> years?
> 
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
> 
> I'm not sure what this means; how is Libera 'the continuity choice'? Is it:
> Because the ex-freenode staff have asked us to move there?
> Because we have a strong relationship with that staff?
> Because many other projects are moving there?
> Some other reason?
> 
> >
> > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
> >
> > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
> >
> > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
> >
> > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> 
> So part of my concern here is that these reasons are all mostly about
> groupcontacts (e.g. the 4-5 person team that manages our IRC presence)
> and doesn't talk much about the community (e.g. the thousands of
> people actually using IRC for stuff.) So why should the community
> move? I care more about them than about groupcontacts (no offense.)
> 
> >
> > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> > IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> 
> Why is Rizon controversial?
> Note that freenode was attacked with spambots repeatedly in the past
> (GNAA, other attacks) and freenode admins struggled fighting the
> attacks for months. So why do we care about spambot attacks now, as
> opposed to in the past? Or are the attacks just a pretense we are
> using to move for other reasons?
> 
> >
> > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
> >
> > Reasons against delay:
> > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
> 
> How has it lost trust?

By things like this happening:

https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse

tl;dr (a snippet from that page):

"On 2021-05-22, I received a tip-off that the topic of the Freenode channel ##hntop (which I had parted) had had its topic changed back. I rejoined the channel to confirm this. The following changes had taken place:

    the topic had been changed back to the previous topic;
    rasengan had operator status, which I never authorized or intended;
    I no longer had operator status;
    egobot had been replaced with rasengan's bot which he previously used in his channel ##hnnew, humblebot, which had voice.

Examination of ChanServ records also reveals that I am no longer the founder of the channel:

  2021-05-22 14:37:53    <hl> info ##hntop
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: Information on ##hntop:
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: Founder    : freenode-placeholder-account
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: Registered : May 22 06:01:30 2021 (7h 36m 23s ago)
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: *** End of Info ***

I no longer have any authority or ChanServ flags for this channel."

With these abuses happening, moving away from Freenode seems to be the
only reasonable choice. There may still be a potential for impersonation
on Libera, but it now seems impersonation on Freenode isn't out of the
realm of possibility. The network is simply untrustworthy.

> > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> > increases.
> 
> I'm in the normal channels and I see activity; Are people talking on
> libera behind my back!?
> 
> > 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
> >
> > Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
> >
> > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> > This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
> 
> What is the suboptimal outcome of this? I read this as "things are
> different from freenode" which is not the same thing as "key features
> of chanserv are missing." If they are missing, what are they?
> 
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
> >
> > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
> >
> > I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> > Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
> >
> > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> > ... snip
> >
> > I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> >
> > For others reading the thread.
> > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> > move in current situation.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Georgy
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: "Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> > Cc: council@gentoo.org, David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
> > relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
> > than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
> > was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
> > infrastructure.)
> >
> >
> > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> >
> >
> > I also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> >
> > Also, WTF? https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611
> > It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as fast as possible.
> >
> > --
> > Andreas K. Hüttel
> > dilfridge@gentoo.org
> > Gentoo Linux developer
> > (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" <wraeth@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> >
> > On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode wrote:
> >
> > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
> >
> > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> > ... snip
> >
> > I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> >
> > For others reading the thread.
> > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> > move in current situation.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Georgy
> >
> >
> > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
> >
> >
> > I, too, would like an emergency meeting for a decision to be made.
> >
> > Further, as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the
> > back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally support
> >
> >  a) for Gentoo to generally move away from freenode (we can maintain
> > *some* presence there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of
> > trust in it in the community at large.
> >
> >  b) for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff
> > relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already gone in to
> > setting up our presence there (channel registration, cloaks); as well as
> > the considerable number of users that have already moved in that direction.
> >
> > Cheers
> > --
> > Sam Jorna (wraeth)
> > GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> > Cc: council@gentoo.org
> >
> > On Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay
> > is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's
> > hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
> > presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief
> > of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC
> > -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I
> > trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
> > relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
> > than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
> > was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
> > infrastructure.)
> >
> >
> > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> >
> > On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James wrote:
> >
> >
> > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> >
> >
> > I don't think you're being fair with this. Of course it's empty because
> > the previous people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode staff
> > are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to talk to
> > even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty currently.
> >
> > (That being said the admins who left to Libera are the people we've
> > worked together for years)
> >
> >
> > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> > IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> >
> >
> > Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while the old ones
> > leave. Still seems to work.
> >
> > Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with both ways.
> >
> > -- juippis
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST
> > To: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
> > Cc: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
> >
> > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
> >
> > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> > ... snip
> >
> > I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> >
> > For others reading the thread.
> > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> > move in current situation.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Georgy
> >
> >
> > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Sergei Trofimovich <slyfox@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> > Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org
> >
> > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> >
> > Minor personal note: for some people (and projects) it's not just
> > switching IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely.
> > I personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will
> > stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for discussions.
> >
> > We will impact the community with any choice we do (or don't do) today.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
> >
> > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
> >
> > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
> >
> > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
> >
> > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> >
> > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> > IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> >
> > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
> >
> > Reasons against delay:
> > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
> > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> > increases.
> > 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
> >
> > Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
> >
> > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> > This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
> >
> >
> > Minor personal note:
> >
> > For OFTC I'm using
> >    https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/
> > for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera:
> >    https://libera.chat/guides/certfp
> >
> > I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the irssi
> > config that freenode requires:
> >    https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi
> >
> > But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the difference.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
> >
> > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
> >
> > I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
> >
> >
> > Thank you for listing the options explicitly!
> >
> > I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting tomorrow.
> > Don't know about the others.
> >
> > I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in -project
> > would be beneficial to at least have our options listed as wider
> > community sees it.
> >
> > Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's requirements
> > for official presence in communication platforms to consider them
> > official (and/or primary). That would ease reasoning about why exactly
> > Freenode does not suit us today and would simplify building a list
> > of available choices.
> >
> > --
> >
> >  Sergei
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
> >
> > On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that
> > delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think
> > it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
> > presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general
> > belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots
> > in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently,
> > and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding
> > Libera.
> >
> >
> > Most irc clients make staying on both networks simple, given that all
> > the hard work (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done timely
> > we could just stay in both for the time being.
> >
> > Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat yet ?
> >
> > lu
> >
> >
> >
> 

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[Thomas Deutschmann]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6635 bytes --]

Hi,

On 2021-05-22 18:37, Alec Warner wrote:
> So my biggest problem is again governance; is there any transparency 
> on continuity of *Libera* or will someone just sell it again in 2 
> years?

That's also my problem with Libera: I know they are new and ramping up a
new service but at the moment all we have are promises.

It's good to read they plan to create a non-profit organization but we
all know that this isn't easy. You have to do it first.

And having a non-profit organization is one thing (I actually don't care
about non-profit that much as long as I am not involved/contributing;
I.e. even a Ferengi might provide a good IRC service). I am more
interested in the organization itself. Who is owning the servers? Who is 
in control? Who has access?


>> Reasons for migration to Libera: 1) Libera is the continuity
>> choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous
>> freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name and some
>> sponsored servers. (Libera is already building up sponsorship and
>> servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely
>> cloud/their own infrastructure.)
> 
> I'm not sure what this means; how is Libera 'the continuity choice'?
> Is it: Because the ex-freenode staff have asked us to move there? 
> Because we have a strong relationship with that staff? Because many
> other projects are moving there? Some other reason?

Same thoughts. The relation ship is nice but in the end it has no value: 
You can only look back at 15 years if things will change... not really 
an argument (see the distracted boyfriend meme). Also: I don't see any 
reason why we shouldn't be able to build up something similar with OFTC 
for example.


 > Sam wrote:
>> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
>> 
>> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means
>> #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make
>> decisions.

All nice but not an argument either.


>> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC
>> administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware
>> of the actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We
>> are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand 
>> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup
>> new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.

Again, nice. But in case this should imply we can't have something 
similar with OFTC, this is wrong/disrespectful against other services 
(yes, you don't mean it that way, I just wanted to write it out).


>> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on
>> Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a
>> new developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody
>> available to speak to.

Sorry, right now this is an invalid argument: Freenode staff stepped 
down. We cannot blame them, that they don't have people at the moment. 
If you say that 15y relationship have some value, we should grant 
freenode some time to get the current situation sorted. Not?

But this is about freenode, I guess this train is moving so I can stop 
talking about freenode.


>> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC
>> operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to
>> Rizon and other controversial IRC networks. It’s clear that, even
>> if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the
>> current way of working at Freenode given they’re not in any of the
>> usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> 
> Why is Rizon controversial? Note that freenode was attacked with
> spambots repeatedly in the past (GNAA, other attacks) and freenode
> admins struggled fighting the attacks for months. So why do we care
> about spambot attacks now, as opposed to in the past? Or are the
> attacks just a pretense we are using to move for other reasons?

I second your questions. I think the controversial is based on 
https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395347865271246853


My problem with Libera.chat is, that I feel instrumentalized and I don't 
want to get pulled into whatever is going on there. I think gyakovlev 
wrote, "This is not about who is right..." but it will become "who is 
right" if we follow former freenode staff. Is it a problem? I don't 
really now (how should anyone know that? All we have is hearsay/leaks we 
cannot verify). Many Gentoo people probably don't know what happened 
many years ago 
(https://twitter.com/flameeyes/status/1395042943392751621). Why did we 
let that happen and had no discussion about moving away from freenode 
when one of us got attacked? But today, when Gentoo is not directly 
affected, we are happy to move?


>> 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being
>> the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the
>> unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good
>> company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start. 5) Large
>> swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a
>> vacuum left by the lack of administration.

For me, this is the only but also strongest argument for Libera.Chat: 
IRC is only successful when our users are around. And users will be, 
where their projects are (nobody really wants to maintain multiple 
networks if not necessary, not?). So you will be in any Gentoo channel 
because you use Gentoo for example but when you have a problem with a 
KDE application, you just want to jump into KDE's support channel 
without switching network first...


>> Reasons against OFTC *for now*: 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks
>> (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in
>> future)
>> 
>> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes
>> lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g.
>> ChanServ. This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too.
>> Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take
>> time.
> 
> What is the suboptimal outcome of this? I read this as "things are 
> different from freenode" which is not the same thing as "key
> features of chanserv are missing." If they are missing, what are
> they?

OFTC will be different, yes. But they already have a stable foundation 
and aren't built on promises that they have yet to prove.


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 495 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[John Helmert III]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7654 bytes --]

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 06:20:40PM +0200, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2021-05-22 18:37, Alec Warner wrote:
> > So my biggest problem is again governance; is there any transparency 
> > on continuity of *Libera* or will someone just sell it again in 2 
> > years?
> 
> That's also my problem with Libera: I know they are new and ramping up a
> new service but at the moment all we have are promises.

I think it's obvious they're seasoned IRC network operators. Even if
there are hiccups at first they're surely experienced enough to keep
things going in the long term.

> It's good to read they plan to create a non-profit organization but we
> all know that this isn't easy. You have to do it first.
> 
> And having a non-profit organization is one thing (I actually don't care
> about non-profit that much as long as I am not involved/contributing;
> I.e. even a Ferengi might provide a good IRC service). I am more
> interested in the organization itself. Who is owning the servers? Who is 
> in control? Who has access?
> 
> 
> >> Reasons for migration to Libera: 1) Libera is the continuity
> >> choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous
> >> freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name and some
> >> sponsored servers. (Libera is already building up sponsorship and
> >> servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely
> >> cloud/their own infrastructure.)
> > 
> > I'm not sure what this means; how is Libera 'the continuity choice'?
> > Is it: Because the ex-freenode staff have asked us to move there? 
> > Because we have a strong relationship with that staff? Because many
> > other projects are moving there? Some other reason?
> 
> Same thoughts. The relation ship is nice but in the end it has no value: 
> You can only look back at 15 years if things will change... not really 
> an argument (see the distracted boyfriend meme). Also: I don't see any 
> reason why we shouldn't be able to build up something similar with OFTC 
> for example.
> 
> 
>  > Sam wrote:
> >> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
> >> 
> >> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means
> >> #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make
> >> decisions.
> 
> All nice but not an argument either.
> 
> 
> >> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC
> >> administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware
> >> of the actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We
> >> are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand 
> >> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup
> >> new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
> 
> Again, nice. But in case this should imply we can't have something 
> similar with OFTC, this is wrong/disrespectful against other services 
> (yes, you don't mean it that way, I just wanted to write it out).
> 
> 
> >> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on
> >> Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a
> >> new developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody
> >> available to speak to.
> 
> Sorry, right now this is an invalid argument: Freenode staff stepped 
> down. We cannot blame them, that they don't have people at the moment. 
> If you say that 15y relationship have some value, we should grant 
> freenode some time to get the current situation sorted. Not?

Surely the "15y relationship" refers to the relationship with the people
(who are no longer at Freenode) rather than the abstract of "Freenode".

> But this is about freenode, I guess this train is moving so I can stop 
> talking about freenode.
> 
> 
> >> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC
> >> operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to
> >> Rizon and other controversial IRC networks. It’s clear that, even
> >> if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the
> >> current way of working at Freenode given they’re not in any of the
> >> usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> > 
> > Why is Rizon controversial? Note that freenode was attacked with
> > spambots repeatedly in the past (GNAA, other attacks) and freenode
> > admins struggled fighting the attacks for months. So why do we care
> > about spambot attacks now, as opposed to in the past? Or are the
> > attacks just a pretense we are using to move for other reasons?
> 
> I second your questions. I think the controversial is based on 
> https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395347865271246853
> 
> 
> My problem with Libera.chat is, that I feel instrumentalized and I don't 
> want to get pulled into whatever is going on there. I think gyakovlev 
> wrote, "This is not about who is right..." but it will become "who is 
> right" if we follow former freenode staff. Is it a problem? I don't 
> really now (how should anyone know that? All we have is hearsay/leaks we 
> cannot verify). Many Gentoo people probably don't know what happened 
> many years ago 
> (https://twitter.com/flameeyes/status/1395042943392751621). Why did we 
> let that happen and had no discussion about moving away from freenode 
> when one of us got attacked? But today, when Gentoo is not directly 
> affected, we are happy to move?
> 
> 
> >> 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being
> >> the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the
> >> unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good
> >> company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start. 5) Large
> >> swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a
> >> vacuum left by the lack of administration.
> 
> For me, this is the only but also strongest argument for Libera.Chat: 
> IRC is only successful when our users are around. And users will be, 
> where their projects are (nobody really wants to maintain multiple 
> networks if not necessary, not?). So you will be in any Gentoo channel 
> because you use Gentoo for example but when you have a problem with a 
> KDE application, you just want to jump into KDE's support channel 
> without switching network first...
> 
> 
> >> Reasons against OFTC *for now*: 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks
> >> (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in
> >> future)
> >> 
> >> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes
> >> lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g.
> >> ChanServ. This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too.
> >> Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take
> >> time.
> > 
> > What is the suboptimal outcome of this? I read this as "things are 
> > different from freenode" which is not the same thing as "key
> > features of chanserv are missing." If they are missing, what are
> > they?
> 
> OFTC will be different, yes. But they already have a stable foundation 
> and aren't built on promises that they have yet to prove.

I am somewhat struggling to see a difference between the Freenode of
"yesterday" and the Libera of today. Organizations tend to be the sum of
their parts, in this case it's people. They've proven they're capable of
running Freenode for a long time, I see no reason they wouldn't be able
to do the same with a network of another name.

> -- 
> Regards,
> Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
> fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5
> 




[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 12:41 PM John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I am somewhat struggling to see a difference between the Freenode of
> "yesterday" and the Libera of today. Organizations tend to be the sum of
> their parts, in this case it's people. They've proven they're capable of
> running Freenode for a long time, I see no reason they wouldn't be able
> to do the same with a network of another name.

I tend to agree.  I don't think that the former Freenode volunteers
are super-entwined in Gentoo, but I can sympathize as we are a similar
sort of entirely-volunteer-driven organization.

If some outside organization were to sue the Gentoo Foundation, win
the lawsuit, and be awarded the Gentoo trademark/etc, and suddenly we
find somebody taking over our DNS, infra, and so on, and telling us
we're welcome to stick around if we just follow the rules, I imagine
that most of us would see Gentoo being about the community and not the
name and some particular pieces of server hardware.  Gentoo might have
to live on under another name, but it would still be Gentoo in spirit
if the community moves.

I also think this just reflects the risks when you depend on outside
organizations.  The new Libera staff may very well run into another
issue like this be in next year or in another 15 years, and we'll just
have to deal with that when it happens.  While I actually wouldn't
mind ditching IRC at some point, simply switching IRC networks isn't
actually all that difficult to do technically - you just have to
change some DNS names in a couple of services/etc.  Maybe next time it
will be the Gentoo Twitter account that gets taken over due to some
change in Twitter policy, or our Reddit site, or whatever.  We can't
control these services and people need to do a reality check if it
looks like they might have gotten taken over - that isn't a reason to
never use outside social media/etc.  It is just an argument for
remembering how the cloud works.

-- 
Rich