From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org)
by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60)
(envelope-from <gentoo-project+bounces-271-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org>)
id 1JHjWb-0005n4-CM
for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:36:34 +0000
Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3949CE00E5;
Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:36:32 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.180])
by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA87E00E5
for <gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:36:32 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id w53so3560886pyg.25
for <gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:36:32 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
bh=sXCNu7PtAOuoBi7bc2Ki6iPnjyRBjZg4lzqggMQ897A=;
b=VWpuseOMBSaAD3mV5V4ghWpCDn7YZrPS+rKuGu226GWGQmP0Xh9vNYJsqZrlNKDaRukz7O/InUMzHLHsu7hjix77qgarHBQaDXXjNR1A89DkqPIi5s9FUzuQ/FTDJEsHqt3iLWnvzyqqdtEG1s/0HDBFsyXej9scijiNw2FJGc8=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
b=eqMrTUx3ZL+Y6eLWSTO5ch78Hqk5f2Skl7RMriXvm1wm3rK9TDzpCqu/7j2zwEAL/74gbmo+GojURkd39CSJjKOAb0Kuh76d3TzazOMv2j35e+KYYwFQ50e6nyOYmVUv4qe2JrmnqztMFBvSn9/U4GKE0mz1pLbt7lQJiQ8qfgY=
Received: by 10.141.122.20 with SMTP id z20mr6529109rvm.93.1201109791153;
Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:36:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.140.142.10 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:36:31 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <8b4c83ad0801230936k53d7d73djb67c3b65805b8f25@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:06:31 +0530
From: "Nirbheek Chauhan" <nirbheek.chauhan@gmail.com>
To: "Steve Long" <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Re: Re: Plan, then communicate (no-list)
Cc: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
In-Reply-To: <fn7q39$771$1@ger.gmane.org>
Precedence: bulk
List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-project+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-project+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-project+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list <gentoo-project.gentoo.org>
X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
References: <20080120215706.GA16357@redwoodscientific.com>
<b41005390801201932y37cd2978y1e5be8becd1a1c91@mail.gmail.com>
<fn2na2$m4h$1@ger.gmane.org>
<200801212018.23425.philantrop@gentoo.org>
<fn7gft$493$1@ger.gmane.org>
<8b4c83ad0801230650i36d9c60ejed99ddcc7c77f4e2@mail.gmail.com>
<fn7q39$771$1@ger.gmane.org>
X-Archives-Salt: b273ad75-d3dd-4f50-a591-7548731a9176
X-Archives-Hash: 073014a7d67a9551444c7c03851e3d18
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Jan 23, 2008 10:07 PM, Steve Long wrote:
> Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
>
> > On Jan 23, 2008 7:23 PM, Steve Long wrote:
> >> Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> >> > "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with
> >> > the average voter." - Winston Churchill
> >> >
> >> > s/voter/user/
> >> >
> >> Churchill also said democracy is the worst form of government: apart from
> >> all the others.
> >>
> >> He also questioned why anyone should worry about Arabs being gassed in
> >> Mesopotamia, so maybe you can just speak for yourself; would you prefer
> >> to live under Saddam, Amin or Hitler than a democratic government?
> >
> > These statements on governance are completely irrelevant here.
> Er I didn't bring them up. TBH it was only an aside to the main issue of how
> to involve users. The rest of the discussion has in fact been about
> governance, so I am puzzled that you think it "completely irrelevant."
The statements you made about Saddam, Amin and Hitler are irrelevant
here. The rest of the discussion is not.
> > `Responsibilities` is in quotes because you cannot really "police" an
> > organisation that works for free in it's free time.
> >
> Hmm and there's no such thing as forum moderators or irc ops?
You're mis-interpreting my statements. Perhaps I need to give a bit
more context to the words I use.
Policing in the sense of forcing devs to work on things they do not
want to work on.
When you're being paid to govern (as in the case of politicians) it's
their job, and they have to do it no matter how much they dislike it.
Not so in open source.
Of course, devs "behaving" is something that is a social necessity,
and is currently handled well in Gentoo.
>
> > The basic tenants of democracy of "equality" and "freedom"
> > have no meaning whatsoever in this context.
> Again, in your opinion. How can the "basic tenants of democracy" have
> nothing do with it if one is using "a combination of meritocracy and
> democracy"?
You're not understanding how I meant this combination of meritocracy
and democracy works. Meritocracy to choose the "leaders" (devs), and
Democracy between them. The users don't come in the picture at all.
If the devs wish to listen to the users, well and good. If not, no
one's forcing the users to stay. It's nothing like a country where
you're tied to the place you're living, and you have no choice.
>
> > In fact, I'm tempted to invoke Godwin's Law at this point.
> >
> puhleez.
You showed as though the opposite of democracy is a gruesome
dictatorship led by people such as Saddam, Hitler, and Mussolini.
You're telling me that isn't an application of Godwin's Law?
Godwin's Law:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
> > This is a *completely* different situation, and one simply cannot make
> > generalisations such as you have.
> >
> I didn't; you inferred and generalised an awful lot all on your own ;)
Perhaps the phrase "wrong place to use these examples" instead of
"generalisations" would've worked better?
- --
~Nirbheek Chauhan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: http://firegpg.tuxfamily.org
iD8DBQFHl3scb1z91vbKYbYRAlt/AJ9t5ZN63XPyVkZ79bTbU1XOdiIgAwCggGY0
hhP7CbrCQ4Vz28qo+B4aoJU=
=Ae5w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mailing list