From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D8BE138334 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 22:48:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 162E1E085B; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 22:48:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CF0DE083E for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 22:48:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.6.147] ([212.159.46.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.163]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MyseA-1gzMKS3FZq-00vvDJ for ; Thu, 04 Apr 2019 00:48:22 +0200 Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] call for agenda items -- council meeting 2019-04-14 To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <20190401032055.GA9497@linux1.home> <4bbfc34f-335f-5521-310a-b66ffd0d9a9a@gentoo.org> <5e30d658-80c8-b608-1505-dc08db3625bf@gentoo.org> <20190403174315.32615d3b9574571e3ed4a399@gentoo.org> <80ed2e482e96c96555bf4fd9331731c4c9ad0d7f.camel@gentoo.org> From: Michael Everitt Openpgp: id=BA266E0525CFAB101523351B4C30334F93C22371 Autocrypt: addr=m.j.everitt@iee.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFngC8gBEAC8/nQZrVrr8v0kaD4OLw8UftKfPQFEMGY/rnFA81M9IvdyPP8/8u/+9AGc DEN3i/LRvW0KUBdKIngcUY/p1M/sJqBspMOBaoOLp6K53/2uxcGXw62TulQJU+7a37Jukv2r HNSyZzM6II0myConmJa8ja1HfsiVoqDrqNigBF+Sts1kqG4xg8YeyOl1Tk+LZwC+ukzzutE9 pbpIL2snu5I6a6RNi9DtbB9FZKzkbXx8TlpMXrcorNryOLQHPRw6tir5Z8kpetiJgoEpKGBX botDOWLVW+s9XnwPzAFmL03gH+3reY+LfrQWQTDphfZIp75caZQUicQHpc1NUr+8bLr3n79A FCPY3CfWriGn17aqaaXDFfeYPJIlH8UmOXI41JqR47C5eYFbocA8A4k7cGVAdKJFWLy51165 dt7qZyvUQc/olzrZOrvoiWXA8ELg7pqxxObM4kl0502IHz9kb6Lt712HvfjH5yAP8zTYpetn sCPR9aVVSQsRgluNrQFlKpVmUXbeBLjw05UBEunS6prDwXOyZdn7t03LSOlK2nBGM+gtxg8l /0Nb1saYMGGN8qtO4RLFRiRBc20kNz01cC89PKRIXYlW9dRZNH1zebIUCAg+S4hSmmV4uvaZ XRADb2G+ZZ2jj9cNTTnI+X1/a19S8XjBZ4z+9+Hty4nhoB6fawARAQABzSNNLiBKLiBFdmVy aXR0IDxtLmouZXZlcml0dEBpZWUub3JnPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJA8JnAAULCQgHAwUVCgkI CwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgAUCWeAgogIZAQAKCRBj58Z59NQx3awfD/4wMWDKcu0/s2KQhz5JUBfi v+PdY7xxJj77gPhHximyjWW8O1pu3H280HsL2751AuUyQ2JNWYUtbr8FIvk8dLBnjLmXQwu/ JhkPyAoW/3UcpSCjGkwZ0B/amHs9/dC99Y9Fk1lYDqm1FEmSmqnXHFg7tgdKpMF5eV7B0moS ISL0IKSOCMPHE1u/0bSwUVXbzuqWOLbWRcqH819aVsZG+unrQf87R0RKG5rI7OEkdtCDO+8D KlOPqo1i+Un9YvzdktNymHJtoHGljIWLoo5QMciHH5JX+y7bGH1mHfmnsqFsHiPQFkun3/xV qk9hI0qvl1q5ykX/UVZMmXaMVwWcpiLz4pHnN92v9BxyAESKJkj9fh9CoR958nmoLzhmVzdf pXHBlI4E5uYaKeCPbGNHZX0WoHaStf0f/AkuLSQj3g53VDWvDBt+qfnzBkGwYSGhM6tOQX5T Cz0WP8cZa6ghyzTy+z4jwT8/O9umurExdRl2D0VNdT4RPoCFs/jlFXFbnlGPC2FjvWfMEF8j 9FiPq19NPPRd8WiQYgRYehFFoDqNOzIu3LbshV2CPdVN5fsRD1lwOGlrmiPWQrWlfKoUK98G M5MfAcSJVkixsfoajZlH5lk48kBQsMnLxut2pmRiahtsEV0af+FHLs1ZuYngk0kJh5q+UyZi 4exXsLvHC/rPbs7BTQRZ4AvIARAA2MeaJF9ma6ngqTogwle2dHfAzilYpWSgt7Gej9APzidO mVfyoXIBsd3UMNQErFkRZNk/U0vyy0x9Azs3z0gqOo5E98veiN3VOf8g9vhTfxfHcVTz6JwX 9ggzO//iRPvUH3NKfEvpLNn8gkOvN9cTyh0k9Vrj28vBpD3HWWHJlU5wVrpFUpE4RFXDOpMD aAQAPkArzxXmc6CtnQfupkpZPe+mplDoEjFmw1F6fLp/09a+K0m97xZU0eG/tYWqItRpTHnY 8d92wFHNx1RdYyII8y2kCDNwp+E6oEX/DP5WspKGzgf/f9zci61v192wpXiqzoE9D+quFo9v z6Ywn8NCfqOUs+dnwZ9xtQXOHBU5lZi0avkg3HYQ1lArSkUHzlO4k5AslEu5AXqEOKe9Mo4q nYX/HK3xQEPwEJji2T8SR9IDPfAIYjSK6iMw7LT4ugCwVemNHmDSuWdZDjtbVMRdNtsWu0ar i04FQ+8cBovQHQyrVVYVduuazlBioX7dN8go17eue2C3hTr8xJhB4dX7/bfVAay1LeCWyaGr 15nfkAH4wXp11sSU482GwRnEEL5TeYDgHHtd+FyiYm3Wd5T5NKgPM5XpzIhm4MvLmWMhmC4O nLc5gZj2aQ7IWi2W5FlxSSu0VrC0q6hoNB0rCsz1GBKDBrLX+03hZrMRC0TeZZ8AEQEAAcLB ZQQYAQgADwUCWeALyAIbDAUJA8JnAAAKCRBj58Z59NQx3cwiEACpDgKf6ZlEx27TWzoV73v/ FV0Zy2vz+pqIIw2BKb1PbuEJnluZnWQ/u9nVCRoIQKDU5IHS+DoR76iTOUTiVmE+9ZltAHYi 9QRAHlwWdFkZqkoTNvrHw7pA0oOhgqC3k1n3FpAbT8GFZeIKRqgWCacTMBepMJRlz46nQ/CX 4Eh2HwrJrbgJJaMpNqoh+hJee7ev/TXV+OFLc310tJSZhSPXo9NkWGHu631RjOJl4Xf0vE4t Zy4aNE94NjMUOILjmaTp78HBUbsgqZrdl/wu2HbNNF5IKWwnyYRAeF9l73JuQwXLMrVQxbqP P9XiQqgKT4CF3xxdiXCS3Hq5s3OQLouFg03LGHyMAMtsP+8PepndmL/i79s/Mp0WYcJK6XAm Mi+Xknfi5Lay1oAjYu8UvGOWo5nOq62saN/bXG8/m+qqiueMOTDGXHZfklBglW5p6VYJd2eY W1teykJa7oGAOsiePl+z4UllNTBQVzhRPfmc/O3Yg6JJbISqHw84IWDINVUAN6wldIay83Tr gc1aAXDepgf6aNDbbWiQ+BBBJkAOGYTG9pnAaNMUKM65dkN7WufV2fwJHn900f2vzKyFYkKF bIiuODXBTfJG1yvMUQIgnDBYUBuBdDXB3NhOG8nHOJSQXTdI+Ma9ZMkxmVCxV9RXFPYBO8ji nurTf8FtGwnuig== Message-ID: <65dfe74d-e214-e384-4664-a545266a6dc7@iee.org> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 23:48:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7l4JI7dUNr2OEqbyn8grFJlEsPMqU6UAA" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pOj4s35trF4omB9Ae+4RAZV76lR7KMK2kxew4g/h88F39TpOdMo FY+JH/N26eeaywthAlE4vJD3pNJEFgc97FB+LINQAHIUu/q/lmTX3jBflU6NRZnfVJERF4O leVDB2CYs/W07Q0k4iZEd77DLQGHzcBPfCQRknYoGQ9k44ybt4nl4qLx2dboZiJOvxlpXwR 072ABX6PPJPiadpeMNTAQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:y47hZxVqPYE=:YaETY2JFD22HDyQKIZ2Fk4 jS9W+EeUAvGkk6OqNhBS486rLkHG3MMH1rYQNHJhCvQE8fr4PrBSm01q5sZWQ+W3kx6SyMJ1S EOplmdHkGRfeZ59QE/FcAfi49HmY2m44ssZbIJvE68ph0IB4naNXJ8NKRvmDoLd6YHYm/+93Y 6k1DFSoUzA0eO6WYp+oSXiS8FxMBze/fjGA46f2gk1PiFzkZRFpNdFugJwc/fVGA4JRXHlRrk 6gT8hMZ76Fo3lMR8NtQrhU+q32amWbhshWaj2kzeOk0al5PvmKNLJa8ZpTykSoQRux9gwpvkK GCudvVyhW26kD4+h7fqLFTkUY1vLg+Zjg2ZWuR8Lrde7RfJVg5YCuRApcGtRr83uzWW0bFLHj w9lXkNPYJToNLw7RUBiXMQa3NJQChviCn5W+dC9qBPBALvGH7UMIB2UoBu1Rt1z/2GYGBkuIg Ol/NRcxjtWoVaiDO9x/JAtsHifaCU95+RRgvYunjGZYVfkHvN+HnF3R8r0r+U/zkJU9cGieHV TbamvaUM8PyPQNeFob6v1m/Pa56yLt29mjPw8OpPUBiKFyH+ZrqF/VgDwtbMz2ioEYJXj/W9b GkA5Abxyr4f4+UolvN1s7awqcjienmdBO5O6b3Ds4UwnnXIZdAauro/rch3dExhFTVWpmgvnZ LC6mi9dVwYPmqJycTWkZpbs5WcJjCQX6NsORkkhBPgFQW4EuAMgAqiWh0u+IcEhBvs8NNmJ0y jSm6n8Fk7fRZHhvwerTIit2clL3UNMveFFvgGJADBdwD/RjV3n3h+pqx8C4meonvtrMRjwxVU PnA/6npGlJ4QpBDxPSOC8YkjTYSyZAnzh097+ZxkKmrHdMZNm0U/oGjrbz6LoOZo71teIFL X-Archives-Salt: aeaeab59-1f1e-4c76-8322-6227ac2528b5 X-Archives-Hash: 102b27239674cdf0a728ec8e189b4a6c This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --7l4JI7dUNr2OEqbyn8grFJlEsPMqU6UAA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8vGoglwQdz5W53xOcTc3nA5VLi54jDQFk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Michael Everitt To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: <65dfe74d-e214-e384-4664-a545266a6dc7@iee.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] call for agenda items -- council meeting 2019-04-14 References: <20190401032055.GA9497@linux1.home> <4bbfc34f-335f-5521-310a-b66ffd0d9a9a@gentoo.org> <5e30d658-80c8-b608-1505-dc08db3625bf@gentoo.org> <20190403174315.32615d3b9574571e3ed4a399@gentoo.org> <80ed2e482e96c96555bf4fd9331731c4c9ad0d7f.camel@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: --8vGoglwQdz5W53xOcTc3nA5VLi54jDQFk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F98DDCDCF7164F9FD8DE2376" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F98DDCDCF7164F9FD8DE2376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/04/19 23:35, Alec Warner wrote: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:44 PM Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny > wrote: > > On Wed, 2019-04-03 at 17:43 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > > Why? We have no way to verify that provided names are valid or th= at > > provided ID's are valid. At least in my jurisdiction such > > information collected can't be used for legal action or protectio= n > > without following established government-assisted verification > > procedure. In other jurisdictions similar problems may and will > > arise. > > 'Perfect is the enemy of good'.=C2=A0 Claiming that you can't be 10= 0% sure > that someone's giving his real name doesn't imply that everyone is = using > fake names.=C2=A0 Or that it makes no sense to use them. > > > Additional problem is personal data collection, it is > > restricted or heavily regulated in many countries. One can't just= > > demand to show an ID via electronic means without following > > complicated data protection procedures which are likely to be > > incompatible between jurisdictions. > > Do you have any proof of that, or are you just basing your comments= > on the common concept of misunderstanding GDPR and extending it to = match > your private interest? > > > So the real name requirement gives us no real protection from > > possible cases, but creates real and serious problems by kicking > > active developers and contributors from further contributions. > > NP-Hardass is not the only one. > > Do you have any proof of that?=C2=A0 As far as I'm concerned, we're= pretty > clear that NP-Hardass can't contribute to Gentoo, and that his prev= ious > contributions shouldn't have been accepted in the first place (and = why > Trustees agreed to them is another problem).=C2=A0 Are you going to= take > legal and financial responsibility if his employer claims copyright= to > his contributions?=C2=A0 And if you say yes, are you going to reall= y take it > or go with the forementioned attitude that we can't legally force y= ou > to? > > > Under the current policy we do not accept contributions from contributo= rs > whose names we believe are not real identities. The current policy says= > nothing about previous contributions; almost everyone who contributed t= o > Gentoo over the past 20 years did so without signing anything, without > identity verification, and with no DCO. Those commits were accepted and= > continue to be accepted until we decide otherwise. I don't like the way= > you construe the previous work of hundreds of people who contributed to= > the project; I find the idea that we should never have accepted these > contributions to be pretty offensive. > > You are free to blame the organization for having bad policies (and you= > do and I'm the board President and I will 1000% take the blame) but don= 't > for a minute blame people who are just trying to contribute and followi= ng > the policies that the project had at the time. As you wrote above > "perfect is the enemy of the good" and if we rejected the previous 20 > years of work we'd have basically nothing, so we accept that risk as a > cost of continuing to exist as a Foundation. No business operates with > zero risk. > =C2=A0 > > > > I invited some gifted people with > > high quality out-of-tree work to become contributors or developer= s, > > but due to hostile attitude towards anonymous contributors they > > can't join. And people want to stay anonymous for good reasons, > > because they are engaged with privacy oriented development. > > > This is a very vague statement that sounds like serious overstateme= nt > with no proof, aimed purely to force emotional reaction to support = your > proposal.=C2=A0 If you really want to propose something meaningful,= I'd > really appreciate if you used real evidence to support it rather th= an > vague claims. > > > > We are loosing real people, real contributions and real community= =2E > > What for? For solving imaginary problems with inappropriate tools= =2E > > > > Thank you for telling us that copyright is an imaginary problem. > > > Your words are like knives, and this leads to a perception of antagonis= m. > > 1) The policies of the project currently prioritize a knowledge of wher= e > commits come from in order to eventually reduce liability risk for the > project. > 2) I firmly do not believe the project has anything against anonymous /= > pseudonymous contributors (nor should it; if you think it does I'm happ= y > to amend bylaws, GLEPs, and any other charter documents to state that w= e > have nothing against that type of contribution.) > 3) The current policy makes it difficult to contribute in this way; > because we have this trade-off we have made where we want to know where= > commits come from for legal reasons.) > > Its OK to say "Hi X, we cannot accept your anonymous / pseudonymous > contribution because of this policy, and we made this policy to solve a= > problem of copyright liability for the organization." > I don't think its OK to say "Hi X, its completely unreasonable to want = to > contribute to Gentoo in an Anonymous or Pseudonymous manner; please fil= e > your identity papers to me immediately!" > > My reading is your comments are closer to the latter than the former; I= 'm > just not sure why that is. > > I think its perfectly sane to ask "how can we build an organization whe= re > we can accept pseudonymous contributions and contain our liability for > code from unverified contributors?" and have people interested in that > write up and vet proposals. I get that its a complex and difficult > problem area; maybe none of the proposals will work! but that doesn't > meant we shouldn't try to do it. > =C2=A0 > > > --=20 > Best regards, > Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny > Thank you, Alec, for your rather-more-balanced approach. --------------F98DDCDCF7164F9FD8DE2376 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/04/19 23:35, Alec Warner wrote:
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:44 PM Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3= rny <mg= orny@gentoo.org> wrote:
On Wed, 2019-04-03 at 17:43 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> Why? We have no way to verify that provided names are valid or that
> provided ID's are valid. At least in my jurisdiction such
> information collected can't be used for legal action or protection
> without following established government-assisted verification
> procedure. In other jurisdictions similar problems may and will
> arise.

'Perfect is the enemy of good'.=C2=A0 Claiming that you can't= be 100% sure
that someone's giving his real name doesn't imply that everyone is using
fake names.=C2=A0 Or that it makes no sense to use them.

> Additional problem is personal data collection, it is > restricted or heavily regulated in many countries. One can't just
> demand to show an ID via electronic means without following
> complicated data protection procedures which are likely to be
> incompatible between jurisdictions.

Do you have any proof of that, or are you just basing your comments
on the common concept of misunderstanding GDPR and extending it to match
your private interest?

> So the real name requirement gives us no real protection from
> possible cases, but creates real and serious problems by kicking
> active developers and contributors from further contributions.
> NP-Hardass is not the only one.

Do you have any proof of that?=C2=A0 As far as I'm concerned,= we're pretty
clear that NP-Hardass can't contribute to Gentoo, and that his previous
contributions shouldn't have been accepted in the first place (and why
Trustees agreed to them is another problem).=C2=A0 Are you go= ing to take
legal and financial responsibility if his employer claims copyright to
his contributions?=C2=A0 And if you say yes, are you going to= really take it
or go with the forementioned attitude that we can't legally force you
to?

Under the current policy we do not accept contributions from contributors whose names we believe are not real identities. The current policy says nothing about previous contributions; almost everyone who contributed to Gentoo over the past 20 years did so without signing anything, without identity verification, and with no DCO. Those commits were accepted and continue to be accepted until we decide otherwise. I don't like the way you construe the previous work of hundreds of people who contributed to the project; I find the idea that we should never have accepted these contributions to be pretty offensive.

You are free to blame the organization for having bad policies (and you do and I'm the board President and I will 1000% take the blame) but don't for a minute blame people who are just trying to contribute and following the policies that the project had at the time. As you wrote above "perfect is the enemy of the good" and if we rejected the previous 20 years of work we'd have basically nothing, so we accept that risk as a cost of continuing to exist as a Foundation. No business operates with zero risk.
=C2=A0

> I invited some gifted people with
> high quality out-of-tree work to become contributors or developers,
> but due to hostile attitude towards anonymous contributors they
> can't join. And people want to stay anonymous for good reasons,
> because they are engaged with privacy oriented development.

This is a very vague statement that sounds like serious overstatement
with no proof, aimed purely to force emotional reaction to support your
proposal.=C2=A0 If you really want to propose something meaningful, I'd
really appreciate if you used real evidence to support it rather than
vague claims.

> We are loosing real people, real contributions and real community.
> What for? For solving imaginary problems with inappropriate tools.
>

Thank you for telling us that copyright is an imaginary problem.

Your words are like knives, and this leads to a perception of antagonism.

1) The policies of the project currently prioritize a knowledge of where commits come from in order to eventually reduce liability risk for the project.
2) I firmly do not believe the project has anything against anonymous / pseudonymous contributors (nor should it; if you think it does I'm happy to amend bylaws, GLEPs, and any other charter documents to state that we have nothing against that type of contribution.)
3) The current policy makes it difficult to contribute in this way; because we have this trade-off we have made where we want to know where commits come from for legal reasons.)

Its OK to say "Hi X, we cannot accept your anonymous / pseudonymous contribution because of this policy, and we made this policy to solve a problem of copyright liability for the organization."
I don't think its OK to say "Hi X, its completely unreasonable to want to contribute to Gentoo in an Anonymous or Pseudonymous manner; please file your identity papers to me immediately!"

My reading is your comments are closer to the latter than the former; I'm just not sure why that is.

I think its perfectly sane to ask "how can we build an organization where we can accept pseudonymous contributions and contain our liability for code from unverified contributors?" and have people interested in that write up and vet proposals. I get that its a complex and difficult problem area; maybe none of the proposals will work! but that doesn't meant we shouldn't try to do it.
=C2=A0

--
Best regards,
Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny

Thank you, Alec, for your rather-more-balanced approach.
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