Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years...

[Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>]

Nick Vinson wrote:
>
> On 10/11/2016 12:10 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 3:03 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
>> <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
>>> As lead of Comrel you should specifically addressing the topic of any appeal.
>>> You should be able to clarify my status and what I would be appealing to
>>> council.
>> The onus of any appeal is on you.  If he felt that there was anything
>> to appeal he wouldn't have issued it in the first place.  An appeal is
>> the result of a disagreement over a decision.  If you ask a judge what
>> part of his decision was wrong and should be appealed, he'll tell you
>> that there was nothing wrong with his decision.  That doesn't mean
>> that you can't appeal, it simply reflects the fact that any judge is
>> going to do their job however they feel is best.  If they knew in
>> advance there was a mistake in their ruling they wouldn't have made it
>> in the first place.
> This isn't a fair comparison.  When a judge makes a decision it and the
> events surrounding it are logged in the court transcript which is
> typically public.  At most, the judge makes a decision and writes an
> 'opinion' that says what that decision was and how he reached it.
>
> My understanding is some one wishing to appeal a Comrel decision does so
> almost completely blind.  It's not possible to know exactly what
> complaint(s) were filed against you, how Comrel came to its decision,
> and assuming the decision is flawed, what the flawed parts are.  To me
> it sounds like Comrel is very much a "black box".  Complaints go in, and
> if the device warrants it, a punitive decision comes out.
>
> If that account is incorrect, I'd appreciate anyone pointing out what I
> got wrong, but as I'm writing this, Comrel's handling of things is
> world's apart from how a typical court does it.
>
> That said, I'm not suggesting Comrel start writing "opinions" to justify
> their actions, but I am pointing out that William's frustration with
> being told he can appeal, but without any actionable information is a
> common thread I've heard from a few people who have had direct dealings
> with Comrel.
>
> Thanks,
> Nicholas Vinson
>
>> If you disagree with something Comrel did, then appeal whatever it is
>> that you disagree with.  If you're fine with it, then don't.  Either
>> way, if you don't appeal (either to Comrel as a whole or Council)
>> nothing is likely to change regarding your specific case.
>>


I'm hesitant to reply but I think I see a theme here.  I'm also sort of
picking a random post to reply to as well.  I help Admin a political
website so I'm used to trying to piece together things that don't always
fit together.  I'm also used to rules changing and even roles changing
as well.  Further info, I been around Gentoo since about 2003.  I've
seen some things going on that is wrong and Gentoo struggling to fix it,
some worked out well, some not so much.  I was also here when the
mailing lists were a disaster.  The forums wasn't to far behind either. 
I've seen Gentoo in very poor shape.  Even now, I'm a bit concerned
about Gentoo.  It seems the bureaucracy is growing and the people that
have to deal with it is shrinking. 

It seems to me that William posted something that someone else didn't
like.  As to what that was, I do NOT know so I don't know how severe it
was or even if it could have resulted in a forced removal from Gentoo. 
Then someone complained to whatever policing authority there was at the
time and they started looking into it.  Since William held a couple
positions within Gentoo, lead of a project and a Trustee, the process
never seemed to have completed because William resigned as Trustee and
retired as a developer, not just lead but developer as a whole. 
Basically, he left Gentoo.   It seems to me that William left before a
complete ruling, vote or opinion was ever made.  I think the point that
William is making is that since no ruling, vote or opinion was ever
made, there is nothing to appeal to the council.  Perhaps if someone
from that body could email that to him, if it was done, then he would
know what he is appealing.  From what I gather, William never got
anything since the process never seemed to have completed due to his
leaving Gentoo. 

The other side of the coin.  It seems ComRel took William's leaving as
some sort of a admission of guilt and is making current judgments as if
that is the case.  If no admission was ever made, then that isn't
correct.  Either go back and finish the process or leave it retired to
the files so to speak and move on.  If there was a vote, opinion, or
ruling made, then William seems to have no knowledge of it and he needs
to be advised of what was decided

I mentioned I help admin a website.  If someone violates the rules, I
contact them on it and they chose to delete their account instead of
dealing with the matter, it doesn't mean they can never rejoin the
site.  It does mean that if they do and I know it, then they would have
to address the previous problem.  The thing is, it would be on me or
staff to inform the member that when they left before, they left
unfinished business that needs to be addressed.  If it is minor, I may
not bring it up but chose to watch and see how they act.  If it is
serious, then I would notify them.  In this case, it seems William was
notified that there was a problem, he left Gentoo and either no decision
was ever made OR he was never notified that one was made.  Based on my
understanding, someone either needs to share the end result of the
complaint against William or they need to go back and finish the process. 

To help correct this problem in the future, it may be wise to have a
policy that says that once a complaint is made, it has to go through the
entire process, even if the person leaves Gentoo completely and refuses
to respond to the complaint.  If the person ever wants to return, they
can then know where they stand without having to post a thread with a
ton of replies that really haven't corrected anything.  They would also
know what it is they would have to appeal as well. 

This is my take based on my piecing this together over the past couple
days or so.  There is a lot that is unknown on this tho. 

Dale

:-)  :-)