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Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:36:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] rfc: comrel changes To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <20200217161812.GA5969@linux1.home> <441737a3d1c0efdfc9f95b1cb1fde47b0f55d58f.camel@gentoo.org> <126ac095ce1f3cd3fd75c4ad977d9ed1e08123df.camel@gentoo.org> <7c54caacaed187e36b3302ccc7d8d4c435247d24.camel@gentoo.org> From: Mikle Kolyada Autocrypt: addr=zlogene@gentoo.org; keydata= mQENBFtCkdwBCAC7LGb65KM8ZhysEDzbBnggTsUMXMZ3pJWFQtLaxm8f99p2HL9GFcEP94A6 BXExWzMcIba/AdL0ogU2mS/Jbs7DHUFVRT3yQDtiq+md5h3hZvi52QyRlELWG9ElDLuUse5E 58WJgLx+SXD5qgUowqTgCzNbXAJQNKQtNWIC+Zy29m53Xj8yBnRsRuwd0kO/Zn7DJL5dCKL2 ItzfJNpG5MTayLyNkl3QgCqPPFsQEd7aqqqhxq1pn/dwX22vyMJwsv/6SV5vaNTYSg9p8hVn r3mLVYg6/UIvwAIgNJKhQlG1bkoOq5+jgq8a7GdRUeY8fHSqLERucmal8fBqWmvZH+jRABEB AAG0Ik1pa2xlIEtvbHlhZGEgPHpsb2dlbmVAZ2VudG9vLm9yZz6JAVQEEwEIAD4CGwMFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQRRPEwdu6XuhrjZQ70+fhwhqdFLlwUCW2fApgUJBEPe ygAKCRA+fhwhqdFLl7CeB/9qYF51wrMuzpLW/znrH0YZmYo9pm7kmLxbWezJH74hH97rJOer X+RoNR0nAGrBdZzObiHWhXah5BFrln8Fyv8oE5IDnO9OCN+PE8hXSSSYv6VvtNX6FXgMaqvR XC5kd1/ugvpPmwbbfTp0uasRATjlsXSfb7FAMLAcP2lYbv1dFA2mUHNCtFtIg7Zu+KJTXyeN wPEXrMtgt4j3zL96Drq1AOxkR5D5pPYnzJG+xrOpRoarXVjCI6MsYYKd+E6WRQPIgkeY4mxK FBK3sSNQMAY+FNiWNK3G4529zCLzekv4KQHDSRnfOhfevOogiUCnNUWl9pRDI7uRfSjP0JZw wLi2uQENBFtCkiQBCACkXeNeajg+f6XKDGJOHnxMs3PUeaaqx36wRkevzWjY20VwzSYOq2zn dXP/9Sz7mrJc2aQRXSAfbSeJvsInG/jyBI3vz2Lm6pRx3FkzHatjli5lEhtM6CQIpfZ9Rp18 YiJfrjnah/3UesBekbBOouxQv6188z/Hdilot6opvh1rd1sBE7ugB9w7E11e92bRLfuzCxa/ gKEu2CnH38zq5PQUvFVxRYuKeVXDaSFZc9IFNuysTW5EZOaowL6weeYFktChmvOR/WlSWBIk mrqRSwqJWoj0w2VDt/pzAE0RtQ1gztMcpzKOLSfyPrgP33UAb7VY/fjOwoggqFS0v3dEgj/z ABEBAAGJAnIEGAEIACYCGwIWIQRRPEwdu6XuhrjZQ70+fhwhqdFLlwUCXKDZ9gUJAz97UgFA wHQgBBkBCAAdFiEEWmyBGnI+Eihw6dN8HICQJIqVl8cFAltCkiQACgkQHICQJIqVl8fQzAf/ d9upIp1pgsBC8ie8fwN6mVMiE/u44LimyWBm/G813a0utxYIG10oBGQojq0LuOaLRBm/dvZz wl7ptDwIOubrvAXy6uGY0SOu+e05sKS730Pm5AoRsBx2UDdBIng3Xl/96FlIS8jDLDYgYh0F TXoKb6TNobWJD8caaFS1GC/iDil8AaFZcTPLtPtdDpC2rdQzOHfloVjDk93CZDUEGb/OXSfO nNk93mfXOoCu2Qmwb+bKOeavUPf5+yNiPFzz1/ktnuGXZrgsojRU2m+piyD3zWxisLuDLqP8 GSqYpNpt1JyRTXX6+FqOcGpFv/dineOJXFJaRXwVs0z3IwXYr394awkQPn4cIanRS5fgsAf8 DUKEr7K4tEEXbxKFgpq5P05jKWaQcFSHZN2WG18f89ARJABgAk5APTRD+UvJv9xcy5i8rhvW VJ6JPkYtjxP9r4wQKA7qVpS0ni6DEfweDtcUrIjZu7vdevUNdu4zBv97gK7hyCuy7f3FETPX AsD/99hHMJcKSjeJ/zJ84g/W7BhjZZUp+ZmpC1BdLiU3ZJEHSUBtbBasJDRIvxWqAu95AAfr rdqSDcthe/eIGcBUgrfLD3PESQfO/Q74nuWinsgIGCvO8LB7kc0pWAtTHhraPLyLq+XqvVMK /RoW4g/4pO4d2G3Xt/gSKnLcWtPbd654HUnSi28y/Am3Nx5jfVi68LkBDQRbQpP0AQgAroTc ZKog9QT3rYF6PDWRVk1MBsJgDM5Xl2amZqP5TVOEwXgQNu6f5rwsfANRqCdsSfhn3odYmPWo Yy1hRCFZeXcDEc6l5tG5JRGt9SIxrCFPsfnfpY2h5ll9ycxiveKf3g+xUO72UEtDY979W0LZ 2/xxDOaWd5XGKt+Dmncsx4vMktCi54a4M3JWnLJqfx5nP7gIWXNqzqEEUFIZ2NbJFpPu89jb zglVcgfpWVqDirnOk17wh1C15YFkZHlek+ErwbsfS2hGESqpJRu5q3MatYWYvVwGgCkdtORw WguVKdBS3sOEo+IFIsckglnR3lq+ElXje6vVFqpcJAB0K9AMMQARAQABiQE8BBgBCAAmAhsM FiEEUTxMHbul7oa42UO9Pn4cIanRS5cFAlyg2fYFCQM/eYIACgkQPn4cIanRS5ex0gf6AhBQ F9t918l4l+q+mHzyeaWNO6E3neh2Ibv2FEyR84RXU5+4hXKIkKvWdpaX+PEre8tTAu0fvQF5 ivtc0mpx74SqkUR+g8u8mVY8JzsmiWwCu/Adx+nEzwo1XkzzwiThKnIGwieaulT7N77otTHE g2wdeIr4Epn6/ro5y/QPEbvjoJAfw/ByyVadH1pA4HNbvBwC04xfCpbF4QSDqLZXSY8PX7Je UfN4m3VjKoxrYHYox0B/l7F1GMV7xhXBy2/uP17InEG4ezswr0yIbNrGQrpvBtuDC3sBQUmZ 0ZvJVRUFFXGoDfLcqDP4gK24UnddF8OSKKStbk8ueP3o96xDsQ== Message-ID: <553d7247-6a9e-de4f-b352-bfb63fa1d4bf@gentoo.org> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:36:55 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7c54caacaed187e36b3302ccc7d8d4c435247d24.camel@gentoo.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ki9ioxyBBQ80bI2trRRimPqOkz0AetHtu" X-Archives-Salt: 271bcd6b-33cd-47f2-9df0-0b3ac9b1d58e X-Archives-Hash: b378ea7f17819878e4648325d4e75017 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Ki9ioxyBBQ80bI2trRRimPqOkz0AetHtu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5WYzo3rtNTmfsJ64pwGefNdjV7vba07QX" --5WYzo3rtNTmfsJ64pwGefNdjV7vba07QX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 24.02.2020 11:19, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: > On Mon, 2020-02-24 at 11:08 +0300, Mikle Kolyada wrote: >> On 24.02.2020 10:47, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: >>> On Sat, 2020-02-22 at 22:35 -0800, Alec Warner wrote: >>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 9:39 PM Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, 2020-02-21 at 22:11 +0000, Roy Bamford wrote: >>>>>> This 'revision' group alread exists. Its called the Gentoo council= =2E >>>>>> Unless, that is, council have no oversight of comrel? >>>>> No, that's not how things work. You don't have an appeal body >>>>> proactively look into what all projects are doing. >>>>> >>>> I think by definition this is reactive. Comrel publishes a report[0]= , and >>>> the Council[1] reviews it. >>> I thought we've already established that the reports are meaningless.= >>> >>> The way I see it, your system basically means that, repeatedly: >>> >>> 1. ComRel does their job. >>> >>> 2. ComRel wastes their time publishing a meaningless report. >>> >>> 3. Since the report is meaningless, Council has to audit ComRel's wor= k. >>> >>> Since digging for past data is usually more effort than processing it= >>> as it flows, Council may as well start proactively auditing everythin= g.=20 >>> Except that's not its purpose, and I don't see why we should throw >>> random extra tasks on their plate just because. >>> >>> In my opinion, if we are to go for auditing ComRel, we should select >>> a separate group of people for that, people that choose to put their >>> effort into auditing rather than incidentally get dragged into it. >>> Furthermore, I believe this group should not have any direct deciding= >>> power. Instead, they should bring any issues their find to ComRel's >>> attention and/or appeal them to the Council. >>> >> This is meaningless also, because an individual who finds ComRel >> decision unacceptable can appeal to Council directly, you do not need >> third party layer here. > The individual can only judge the reply to his own request. He lacks > the wider context to audit the process and decisions (or lack of them) > wrt multiple different requests. > > This works both ways. People are also making accusations and claim > about ComRel based on what they guess might be happening The same applies to any third party review body. let's imagine: 1. A review body finds something unacceptable and want it to be reviewed by council 1a. A review body requests more details from ComRel to understand a case better 1b. ComRel provides more details 1c. A review body decides to appeal to the Council 2. Council starts to review the decision 2a. Council requests data a review body collected 2b. Council requests input from ComRel (because there maybe something missing by chance, etc) As a result we have more busywork, this all can be conveyed to Council directly. Also this is unclear to me how a review body will decide what to appeal and what hot to, as the data is still being kept private and reviewers are going to only have a decision on hands. Having only decision is not enough to start thinking ComRel did anything wrong (well, unless there were direct rules violation, which, to my knowledge has never been the case). --5WYzo3rtNTmfsJ64pwGefNdjV7vba07QX-- --Ki9ioxyBBQ80bI2trRRimPqOkz0AetHtu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEWmyBGnI+Eihw6dN8HICQJIqVl8cFAl5TiygACgkQHICQJIqV l8d4KAf/dSb4dC4+JHgEo9Qx3r84+IlSZtvyOG0bGL6cHSRURg07GnAePWOCg9+u FmMUZTn/H1C/DICjxnNlJvmgbqtF4tVMUb7DnB6EdfjDxSyHsShKd+H/DoIQqaoN h15cMY1LB0c1RIrnpcmC5A3DgBT7GUAiANeW2mC+mtsGXSVgGzwG/DBb+1rXdpeF VgOH5blatQtRE/Tn4e/ciEr8IcrVhG5vFk5xr/zjmFCo7LEi0KLYhg2fvrtXC+jG BpL8ZYdm3bjaEOgQQI0kZRgQoHjOJ9B5PaClLqqgeIpYh3JGDoypMJMG4HvyCk3I hFdtxdBagqgHdrcHxhwEczC7+F/Xvw== =u8rv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ki9ioxyBBQ80bI2trRRimPqOkz0AetHtu--