[gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Dear Gentoo Community,

Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).

All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If you
were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your nomination on
the same mailing list.

Here are the rules:

    * Council elections generally happen once a year
    * The council is composed of seven elected members
    * Nominations are allowed from June 14th 00H00 UTC to June 27th
23H59 UTC
    * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
    * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
    * Nominees must accept their nomination before voting begins
    * Voting is opened from June 29th 00H00 UTC to July 12th 23H59 UTC
      (there is one day of break between nominations and voting so the
infra team has time to set up everything)
    * Only Gentoo developers may vote
    * The list of Gentoo Developers is based on active membership
by June 13th, 2013 (the day before the election will be opened)
    * Gentoo uses the Condorcet method of voting
    * Results should be published around July 14th

The page listing all nominations will be available at:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406-nominees.xml
(not available yet)

If you don't know what the Gentoo Council is, you can read about it on
the project page: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/

If you want to ask a question or share your thoughts, contact any of
the election officials through the alias (elections@gentoo.org) or at
IRC (Freenode #gentoo-elections).

Officials:

Chris Reffett (creffett)
David Abbott (dabbott)
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto (jmbsvicetto)

Infra Contact:
Alec Warner (antarus)


For the elections team,

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto:
>     * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated

GLEP 39 doesn't actually say this. Where does this requirement come from?

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2014.06.14 12:20, hasufell wrote:
> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto:
> >     * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
> 
> GLEP 39 doesn't actually say this. Where does this requirement come
> from?
> 
> 

hasufell,

GLEP 39 says ...

"A project is a group of developers working towards a goal (or a set of 
goals). "

Further, the council was set up as "A project ..." as defined by GLEP 
39
"A project exists if it has a web page at www.g.o/proj/en/whatever that 
is maintained and/or a maintained Wiki project page as described 
below."

Thus only Gentoo devs may serve on the council.  It makes little point 
to allow others to be nominated since they cannot be elected.

The Council was probably set up as another project, per GLEP 39 as 
that's the only metastructure, other than the Foundation, that existed 
at the time.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Seemant Kulleen]

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On 14 June 2014 09:59, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:

> The Council was probably set up as another project, per GLEP 39 as
> that's the only metastructure, other than the Foundation, that existed
> at the time.
>

Yes.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, hasufell wrote:

> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto:
>>     * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
>
> GLEP 39 doesn't actually say this. Where does this requirement come from?

Besides the points already made by Roy and Seemant, I was able to trace 
that requirement all the way back to the 2006 election[1].

  [1] - 
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_aa073f4053fdeffde9f3e4c404a89c6a.xml

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, hasufell wrote:
> 
>> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto:
>>>     * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
>>
>> GLEP 39 doesn't actually say this. Where does this requirement come from?
> 
> Besides the points already made by Roy and Seemant, I was able to trace
> that requirement all the way back to the 2006 election[1].
> 
>  [1] -
> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_aa073f4053fdeffde9f3e4c404a89c6a.xml
> 
> 


Ok, thanks. Could we maybe fix the wording of the GLEP so this does not
come up again?

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Chris Reffett]

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On 6/14/2014 1:32 PM, hasufell wrote:

(GLEP editor hat on)
File a bug under Doc Other -> GLEP changes with the exact wording
change (discuss on -project if desired) and put it on the Council
agenda for approval.

Chris Reffett
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Chris Reffett wrote:

> File a bug under Doc Other -> GLEP changes with the exact wording
> change (discuss on -project if desired) and put it on the Council
> agenda for approval.

The metastructure proposal was accepted by a vote of all developers,
only the result was published in form of an informational GLEP.
Therefore GLEP 39 is special, and I doubt that the council has any
power to change it.

Besides, is there really a need for writing this rule down, if it is
custom and practice since 2006? (Likewise, the process of becoming a
developer is based on custom and practice, so there is no need for the
GLEP to define what a "developer" is.)

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Panagiotis Christopoulos]

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On 04:43 Sat 14 Jun     , Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> ... 
> Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
> 00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
> weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).
> ...

Ok, I'll do the start by nominating:

1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
4. Justin Lecher (jlec)
5. Fabio Erculiani (lxnay)
6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
7. Patrick Lauer (patrick)
8. Tim Harder (radhermit)
9. Tomas Chvatal (scarabeus)
10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox)
11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)
12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)
13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)

Panagiotis

-- 
Panagiotis Christopoulos ( pchrist )
    ( Gentoo Lisp Project )

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
> 3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
> 4. Justin Lecher (jlec)
> 5. Fabio Erculiani (lxnay)
> 6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
> 7. Patrick Lauer (patrick)
> 8. Tim Harder (radhermit)
> 9. Tomas Chvatal (scarabeus)
> 10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox)
> 11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)
> 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)
> 13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)
14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)
15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
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>
> On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
>> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
>> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
>> 3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
>> 4. Justin Lecher (jlec)
>> 5. Fabio Erculiani (lxnay)
>> 6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
>> 7. Patrick Lauer (patrick)
>> 8. Tim Harder (radhermit)
>> 9. Tomas Chvatal (scarabeus)
>> 10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox)
>> 11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)
>> 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)
>> 13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)
> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)
> 15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
williamh
zerochaos
dilfridge
phajdan.jr
dberkholz
ago
ssuominen
blueness

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Rich Freeman <rich@thefreemanclan.net> wrote:
>>> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
>>> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
>>> 3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
>>> 4. Justin Lecher (jlec)
>>> 5. Fabio Erculiani (lxnay)
>>> 6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
>>> 7. Patrick Lauer (patrick)
>>> 8. Tim Harder (radhermit)
>>> 9. Tomas Chvatal (scarabeus)
>>> 10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox)
>>> 11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)
>>> 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)
>>> 13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)
>> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)
>> 15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
> williamh
> zerochaos
> dilfridge
> phajdan.jr
> dberkholz
> ago
> ssuominen
> blueness

It's raining devs...

Seeing that Tim "RoboDev" Harder and the spankster have already been
nominated, all I need to add are jmbsvicetto and antarus. I'm sure you
guys are hating me already.

Calchan.

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Denis Dupeyron wrote:

<snip>
>
> It's raining devs...

hehe, I can hear the song humming along.

> Seeing that Tim "RoboDev" Harder and the spankster have already been
> nominated, all I need to add are jmbsvicetto and antarus. I'm sure you
> guys are hating me already.

Thank you Denis for all the "love", but as an election official I need to 
decline my nomination.

> Calchan.

Regards,
Jorge

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Tim Harder]

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On 2014-06-14 17:32, Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> >>> 8. Tim Harder (radhermit)

> It's raining devs...

> Seeing that Tim "RoboDev" Harder and the spankster have already been
> nominated, all I need to add are jmbsvicetto and antarus. I'm sure you
> guys are hating me already.

Thanks to those who nominated me, I think I'll accept this year. 

Note that I'm really not interested in the political aspects and rather
see it as an opportunity to help aid/drive package manager work and
related development which I've gotten into more this past year mainly
through working on pkgcore.

I also enjoy seeing, using, and hacking on what other groups come up
with by leveraging the Gentoo ecosystem, for example Chromium OS and
CoreOS. Aiding the development of package managers and surrounding tools
would help enhance and encourage these types of projects which would
probably increase community interest and involvement thus bringing more
new users and devs to Gentoo.

For more specific goals, dreams, or whatever else see my manifesto [1].
Feel free to ask questions if you doubt my grand schemes. ;)

Tim

[1]: http://dev.gentoo.org/~radhermit/council-manifesto-2014.txt 

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 20:28 Sat 14 Jun     , Rich Freeman wrote:
> dberkholz

Thanks, Rich! I believe the reasons I've run for the council in the past 
[1] remain valid today, so I accept. My primary goal is to continue 
representing the spirit and philosophy of Gentoo, based on my 10+ years 
of involvement, to keep the council decisions consistent with Gentoo's 
long-term values as a community.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Council Member / Sr. Developer, Gentoo Linux <http://dberkholz.com>
Analyst, RedMonk <http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/>


1. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2715

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 06/14/14 20:28, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
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>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
>>> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
>>> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
>>> 3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
>>> 4. Justin Lecher (jlec)
>>> 5. Fabio Erculiani (lxnay)
>>> 6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
>>> 7. Patrick Lauer (patrick)
>>> 8. Tim Harder (radhermit)
>>> 9. Tomas Chvatal (scarabeus)
>>> 10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox)
>>> 11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)
>>> 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)
>>> 13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)
>> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)
>> 15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
> williamh
> zerochaos
> dilfridge
> phajdan.jr
> dberkholz
> ago
> ssuominen
> blueness
>

I debated whether or not to accept.  It was a lot of work for me last 
year to understand each issue and I had the time because I was on 
sabbatical.   Next year I have a light teaching load so I think I can do 
it again.

I accept the nomination, thank you Rich.  My manifesto is at

    http://dev.gentoo.org/~blueness/manifesto-2014.txt


-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 06/14/2014 08:28 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Alexander Berntsen
> <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
>>> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc) 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian) 3. Markos
>>> Chandras (hwoarang) 4. Justin Lecher (jlec) 5. Fabio Erculiani
>>> (lxnay) 6. José María Alonso (nimiux) 7. Patrick Lauer
>>> (patrick) 8. Tim Harder (radhermit) 9. Tomas Chvatal
>>> (scarabeus) 10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox) 11. Sven Vermeulen
>>> (swift) 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm) 13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)
>> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell) 15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
> williamh zerochaos

I accept, thank you sir.

I look forward to barely campaigning at all.  I would campaign on the
"the council is doing nothing and needs my help" platform again, but
I've seen a lot of good work from them this year so I'll write up a
"let's keep the momentum going" manifesto later.

Thanks,
Zero_Chaos

> dilfridge phajdan.jr dberkholz ago ssuominen blueness
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[William Hubbs]

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On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 08:28:18PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
*snip*

> williamh

Thank you Rich, I accept. 

I'll write a manifesto in the next few days.

William


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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Samuli Suominen]

On 15/06/14 03:28, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
>>> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
>>> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
>>> 3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
>>> 4. Justin Lecher (jlec)
>>> 5. Fabio Erculiani (lxnay)
>>> 6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
>>> 7. Patrick Lauer (patrick)
>>> 8. Tim Harder (radhermit)
>>> 9. Tomas Chvatal (scarabeus)
>>> 10. Sergei Trofimovich (slyfox)
>>> 11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)
>>> 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)
>>> 13. Mike Frysinger (vapier)
>> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)
>> 15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
> williamh
> zerochaos
> dilfridge
> phajdan.jr
> dberkholz
> ago
> ssuominen

Thanks. I'll have to refuse because of personal health issues, I can't
promise if I'm available
on given time.

- Samuli

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Agostino Sarubbo]

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On Saturday 14 June 2014 20:28:18 Rich 
Freeman wrote:
> ago
Thanks Rich, but I don't have time right now, so 
I decline.

-- 
Agostino Sarubbo
Gentoo Linux Developer

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)

Thanks!  Unfortunately I don't see any change in time availability for
me in the near future, so I have to decline :(

Fabian

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 6/14/14, 5:28 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> williamh
> zerochaos
> dilfridge
> phajdan.jr
> dberkholz
> ago
> ssuominen
> blueness

Thank you. I decline.

Paweł



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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Brian Dolbec]

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On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 02:19:05 +0200
Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:

> 15. Brian Dolbec (dol-sen)
> 

While I thank Alexander for the nomination.  I feel I must decline
my nomination this time.  I have some health issues happening and the
uncertainty that it brings.  I also have too many projects I'm
responsible (lead or sole developer) for at the moment to spare more
time for council. Perhaps next year things will be much better.

- -- 
Brian Dolbec <dolsen>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[hasufell]

Alexander Berntsen:
> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)

I'm not sure how I can improve gentoo as a council member. I don't feel
fit for it currently anyway. My experience is limited.

The main power in gentoo does not come from the council, so if you want
to change anything, that's not even the place to start.

In fact, I don't think there is any room left for change, so the council
is rather a group of devs that tries to keep status quo, so the system
does not fall apart.

Although I am very political, I don't even think I could change anything
here, even outside of the council. The system is so fixed that you get
frustrated very early and eventually start to cause frustration as well.
I'm trying to minimize that, but it doesn't always work out.

In addition, I don't need anything to put on my CV. I stick to the work
I'm still interested in and try to avoid conflicts, unless they are all
over me already.

That's a clear no.

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/17/2014 09:18 AM, hasufell wrote:
> Alexander Berntsen:
>> 14. Julian Ospald (hasufell)
> 
> I'm not sure how I can improve gentoo as a council member. I don't feel
> fit for it currently anyway. My experience is limited.
> 
> The main power in gentoo does not come from the council, so if you want
> to change anything, that's not even the place to start.
> 
> In fact, I don't think there is any room left for change, so the council
> is rather a group of devs that tries to keep status quo, so the system
> does not fall apart.
> 
> Although I am very political, I don't even think I could change anything
> here, even outside of the council. The system is so fixed that you get
> frustrated very early and eventually start to cause frustration as well.
> I'm trying to minimize that, but it doesn't always work out.
> 
> In addition, I don't need anything to put on my CV. I stick to the work
> I'm still interested in and try to avoid conflicts, unless they are all
> over me already.
> 
> That's a clear no.

I'm honestly disappointed here.  Although I don't necessarily agree with
you all the time, you are trying your best to do what you think is
right.  This is all that can be asked of a council member.  Please
consider it, even if you don't need to buff your CV.

- -Zero

> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 11:38:36PM +0300, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
> 11. Sven Vermeulen (swift)

Thank you for the nomination, but I respectfully decline.

I'm currently one of the trustees and already know that it won't be possible
for me to have a nice, steady, continuous time availability which the
Council requires. I'd rather put remaining effort in those places I know
currently are lower on resources (such as documentation, SELinux, Integrity,
proxy-maint, etc.)

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Chema Alonso]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 299 bytes --]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 11:38:36PM +0300, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
> 6. José María Alonso (nimiux)
> 
> Panagiotis
> 
> -- 
> Panagiotis Christopoulos ( pchrist )
>     ( Gentoo Lisp Project )

Thanks for the nomination but I have to decline. I don't have time ATM.

Regards.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 180 bytes --]

>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:

> Ok, I'll do the start by nominating:

> 12. Ulrich Müller (ulm)

Thank you. I accept the nomination.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 10:38 PM, Panagiotis Christopoulos
<pchrist@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)

Thanks, but I decline. I'm not sure I could give it the time it deserves.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-project] Nominations for Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015

[justin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 564 bytes --]

On 14/06/14 22:38, Panagiotis Christopoulos wrote:
> On 04:43 Sat 14 Jun     , Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> ... 
>> Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
>> 00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
>> weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).
>> ...
> 
> Ok, I'll do the start by nominating:
> 
> 1. Dirkjan Ochtman (djc)
> 2. Fabian Groffen (grobian)
> 3. Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
> 4. Justin Lecher (jlec)

Thanks for the nomination, Panagiotis. I am accepting.

Justin



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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Wulf C. Krueger]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
> nomination on the same mailing list.

For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:

axs, blueness, hwoarang, angelos, zzam, dberkholz, zx2c4, bernalex,
nixnut, hasufell, pchrist, suka, the_paya, keri, nicolasbock, mattm,
nathanzachary, neurogeek, sochotnicky, zlogene, graaff, alonbl, yac,
idella4, ottxor, remi, betelgeuse, marienz, leio, pva, polynomial-c,
klausman, tommy, williamh, nightmorph, wired, hd_brummy, lordvan,
iksaif, dastergon, hanno, qnikst, flameeyes, mschiff, steev, alexxy,
chithanh, dilfridge, josejx, tgurr, vadimk, sera, zorry, kingtaco,
ultrabug, jlec, ssuominen, klondike, ulm, mrueg, jauhien, tomjbe,
think4urs11, hkbst, jaaf, darkside, vapier, tetromino, tomka,
tampakrap, peper, jmorgan, johu, yngwin, swift, fordfrog, mabi,
klieber, haubi, mgorny, mr_bones_, neddyseagoon, cedk, aidecoe,
alunduil, nixphoeni, maekke, dang, flammie, rafaelmartins, ackle, xmw,
ago, chainsaw, idl0r, lh, halcy0n, ken69267, araujo, bicatali, civil,
lxnay, wschlich, elvanor, radhermit, joker, kumba, sping, gengor,
jaervosz, jer, lu_zero, pinkbyte, jdhore, gurligebis, cynede, lejonet,
vikraman, mjo, i92guboj, eras, djay, kallamej, keytoaster, slis, pjp,
heroxbd, spiros, mduft, aballier, chiguire, redlizard, anarchy,
caster, vincent, d2_racing, rhill, maksbotan, gregkh, isaiah, rich0,
ryao, sdamashek, john_r_graham, djc, dolsen, naota, gienah, ikelos,
floppym, ercpe, armin76, weaver, craig, nimiux, sbriesen, mattst88,
grknight, tomk, miknix, nerdboy, scarabeus, blueboar, olemarkus,
reavertm, deathwing00, grobian, nullishzero, eva, grozin, titanofold,
gmsoft, calchan, moult, voyageur, slyfox, tristan, p8952, matsuu,
quantumsummers, dlan, nativemad, twitch153, prometheanfire, fauli,
a3li, kernelsensei, miska, solar, pacho, earthwings, jsbronder,
xarthisius, jbartosik, chutzpah, george, zerochaos, jkt, dev-zero,
kensington, fuzzyray, pesa, beandog, binki, hattya, tupone,
blueknight, cardoe, lack, phosphan, je_fro, tomwij, fox, ranger,
nirbheek, robbat2, thev00d00, pilla, vostorga, mpagano, blackace,
phajdan.jr, psomas, billie, ramereth, desultory, zmedico, swegener,
teiresias, matsl, jcallen, hparker


- -- 
Best regards, Wulf
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Joshua Kinard]

On 06/15/2014 16:44, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> nomination on the same mailing list.
> 
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
> axs, blueness, hwoarang, angelos, zzam, dberkholz, zx2c4, bernalex,
> nixnut, hasufell, pchrist, suka, the_paya, keri, nicolasbock, mattm,
> nathanzachary, neurogeek, sochotnicky, zlogene, graaff, alonbl, yac,
> idella4, ottxor, remi, betelgeuse, marienz, leio, pva, polynomial-c,
> klausman, tommy, williamh, nightmorph, wired, hd_brummy, lordvan,
> iksaif, dastergon, hanno, qnikst, flameeyes, mschiff, steev, alexxy,
> chithanh, dilfridge, josejx, tgurr, vadimk, sera, zorry, kingtaco,
> ultrabug, jlec, ssuominen, klondike, ulm, mrueg, jauhien, tomjbe,
> think4urs11, hkbst, jaaf, darkside, vapier, tetromino, tomka,
> tampakrap, peper, jmorgan, johu, yngwin, swift, fordfrog, mabi,
> klieber, haubi, mgorny, mr_bones_, neddyseagoon, cedk, aidecoe,
> alunduil, nixphoeni, maekke, dang, flammie, rafaelmartins, ackle, xmw,
> ago, chainsaw, idl0r, lh, halcy0n, ken69267, araujo, bicatali, civil,
> lxnay, wschlich, elvanor, radhermit, joker, kumba, sping, gengor,
> jaervosz, jer, lu_zero, pinkbyte, jdhore, gurligebis, cynede, lejonet,
> vikraman, mjo, i92guboj, eras, djay, kallamej, keytoaster, slis, pjp,
> heroxbd, spiros, mduft, aballier, chiguire, redlizard, anarchy,
> caster, vincent, d2_racing, rhill, maksbotan, gregkh, isaiah, rich0,
> ryao, sdamashek, john_r_graham, djc, dolsen, naota, gienah, ikelos,
> floppym, ercpe, armin76, weaver, craig, nimiux, sbriesen, mattst88,
> grknight, tomk, miknix, nerdboy, scarabeus, blueboar, olemarkus,
> reavertm, deathwing00, grobian, nullishzero, eva, grozin, titanofold,
> gmsoft, calchan, moult, voyageur, slyfox, tristan, p8952, matsuu,
> quantumsummers, dlan, nativemad, twitch153, prometheanfire, fauli,
> a3li, kernelsensei, miska, solar, pacho, earthwings, jsbronder,
> xarthisius, jbartosik, chutzpah, george, zerochaos, jkt, dev-zero,
> kensington, fuzzyray, pesa, beandog, binki, hattya, tupone,
> blueknight, cardoe, lack, phosphan, je_fro, tomwij, fox, ranger,
> nirbheek, robbat2, thev00d00, pilla, vostorga, mpagano, blackace,
> phajdan.jr, psomas, billie, ramereth, desultory, zmedico, swegener,
> teiresias, matsl, jcallen, hparker

Appreciate, but I have to decline.  I am only focused on MIPS stuff at the
moment.

-- 
Joshua Kinard
Gentoo/MIPS
kumba@gentoo.org
4096R/D25D95E3 2011-03-28

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us.  And
our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."

--Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
>
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
>

To avoid any "legal technicalities" do these nominations actually
count?  The announcement said "anyone can nominate" but I'm not sure
if this was intended to be limited to current devs.  I don't think it
really matters since devs can always nominate themselves, but I'd hate
to see somebody accept and then get called out on it.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
>>
>> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
>>
>
> To avoid any "legal technicalities" do these nominations actually
> count?  The announcement said "anyone can nominate" but I'm not sure
> if this was intended to be limited to current devs.  I don't think it
> really matters since devs can always nominate themselves, but I'd hate
> to see somebody accept and then get called out on it.

Our rules are very clear: anyone can nominate and it's ok to nominate 
oneself.
However, they also state that nominations must be accepted. So only the 
nominees that accept will be running for the election.

> Rich

Regards,
Jorge

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Pacho Ramos]

El lun, 16-06-2014 a las 05:29 +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
escribió:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> >>
> >
> > To avoid any "legal technicalities" do these nominations actually
> > count?  The announcement said "anyone can nominate" but I'm not sure
> > if this was intended to be limited to current devs.  I don't think it
> > really matters since devs can always nominate themselves, but I'd hate
> > to see somebody accept and then get called out on it.
> 
> Our rules are very clear: anyone can nominate and it's ok to nominate 
> oneself.
> However, they also state that nominations must be accepted. So only the 
> nominees that accept will be running for the election.
> 
> > Rich
> 
> Regards,
> Jorge
> 

In that case... I guess all people is nominated now then and we don't
need to nominate anyone else? :/

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1083 bytes --]

>>>>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B S Vicetto wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Jun 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
>>> 
>>> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
>> 
>> To avoid any "legal technicalities" do these nominations actually
>> count?  The announcement said "anyone can nominate" but I'm not
>> sure if this was intended to be limited to current devs.  I don't
>> think it really matters since devs can always nominate themselves,
>> but I'd hate to see somebody accept and then get called out on it.

> Our rules are very clear: anyone can nominate and it's ok to
> nominate oneself.
> However, they also state that nominations must be accepted. So only
> the nominees that accept will be running for the election.

Right, anyone can nominate. However, if someone is nominating everyone
who is eligible (with the exception of one developer), then I would
see this as a clear abuse of the rule.

So, to make sure if I understand this right, you do consider these
nominations as valid?

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Wulf C. Krueger]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello Ulrich,

On 16.06.2014 12:30, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Right, anyone can nominate. However, if someone is nominating
> everyone who is eligible (with the exception of one developer),
> then I would see this as a clear abuse of the rule.

Actually, *because* I nominated everyone *but* the election officials
and one developer, it can hardly be abuse, can it?

> So, to make sure if I understand this right, you do consider these 
> nominations as valid?

Why would they be *invalid*?

- -- 
Best regards, Wulf

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 16/06/14 06:30 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B S Vicetto wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger
>>> <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
>>> 
>>> To avoid any "legal technicalities" do these nominations
>>> actually count?  The announcement said "anyone can nominate"
>>> but I'm not sure if this was intended to be limited to current
>>> devs.  I don't think it really matters since devs can always
>>> nominate themselves, but I'd hate to see somebody accept and
>>> then get called out on it.
> 
>> Our rules are very clear: anyone can nominate and it's ok to 
>> nominate oneself. However, they also state that nominations must
>> be accepted. So only the nominees that accept will be running for
>> the election.
> 
> Right, anyone can nominate. However, if someone is nominating
> everyone who is eligible (with the exception of one developer),
> then I would see this as a clear abuse of the rule.
> 
> So, to make sure if I understand this right, you do consider these 
> nominations as valid?
> 
> Ulrich
> 


It is permitted, though, right?

I think in terms of expediency, however, we should take an "opt-in"
approach, that is only those who want to run should post acceptances
and otherwise we don't worry about/require/recommend posting/seek
declinations.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2014, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 16/06/14 06:30 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:

>> Right, anyone can nominate. However, if someone is nominating
>> everyone who is eligible (with the exception of one developer),
>> then I would see this as a clear abuse of the rule.
>>
>> So, to make sure if I understand this right, you do consider these
>> nominations as valid?
>>
>> Ulrich
>>
>
>
> It is permitted, though, right?
>
> I think in terms of expediency, however, we should take an "opt-in"
> approach, that is only those who want to run should post acceptances
> and otherwise we don't worry about/require/recommend posting/seek
> declinations.

The rules already state that anyone that wants to run for an election 
needs to accept the nomination.
So, I'd kindly like to ask everyone to stop arguing about Wulf's email and 
only those that wish to run to accept the nomination. If you don't want to 
accept the nomination, don't do anything, when the nomination period 
finishes, we'll consider that as refusal to accept the nomination.

To all the others that are upset because everyone is already nominated, 
I'd like to recall everyone if free to nominate. It is custom practice to 
have developers nominated more than once. Before anyone asks, that is 
also valid under the current rules.

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Regards,
Jorge

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> To all the others that are upset because everyone is already nominated, I'd
> like to recall everyone if free to nominate. It is custom practice to have
> developers nominated more than once. Before anyone asks, that is also valid
> under the current rules.

So, I brought it up because issues like this are better addressed
before there are misunderstandings than after.

Still, traditionally in the past we've had tables of nominees, whether
they accepted, links to manifestos, etc.  That doesn't work quite as
elegantly when everybody is nominated.

Also, a bulk nomination like this may discourage others from
re-nominating the same individual.  Nominations are as much about
encouraging people to seriously run for office and not just a process.
Otherwise we'd just nominate ourselves.  I don't want somebody who
might not have seriously considered running for council to not
consider doing so because somebody didn't think to nominate them
because technically it was already done.

But, this isn't a big deal either way.  I won't make any assumptions
as to what the full intent of nominating almost everybody was.  Wulf
can say whatever he cares to if he cares to.

So, just about everybody is nominated now, but don't let that
discourage anybody from re-nominating others or running if they think
there is some good they can do.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2014, Ulrich Mueller wrote:

>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B S Vicetto wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
>>>
>>> To avoid any "legal technicalities" do these nominations actually
>>> count?  The announcement said "anyone can nominate" but I'm not
>>> sure if this was intended to be limited to current devs.  I don't
>>> think it really matters since devs can always nominate themselves,
>>> but I'd hate to see somebody accept and then get called out on it.
>
>> Our rules are very clear: anyone can nominate and it's ok to
>> nominate oneself.
>> However, they also state that nominations must be accepted. So only
>> the nominees that accept will be running for the election.
>
> Right, anyone can nominate. However, if someone is nominating everyone
> who is eligible (with the exception of one developer), then I would
> see this as a clear abuse of the rule.
>
> So, to make sure if I understand this right, you do consider these
> nominations as valid?

As an election official I need to abide by the rules, so yes, all of those 
nominations are valid.

> Ulrich

Regards,
Jorge.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 4:30 AM, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Right, anyone can nominate. However, if someone is nominating everyone
> who is eligible (with the exception of one developer), then I would
> see this as a clear abuse of the rule.

The rule is very simple: anyone can nominate anyone. There are no
implicit or explicit limits. There is nothing to be abused here,
that's what's clear. You're just trying to blow this out of
proportion.

There are only two sane ways to deal with such an email. Either you
consider this is the deed of an immature prankster and you just ignore
it. Or you consider that, in some way, it is an unexpected improvement
to the democratic process of our council elections, giving a chance to
some quiet developers who wouldn't dare nominating themselves and who
also don't bombard the mailing lists in order to occupy the media
space.

In any case, this kind of knee jerk reaction is not appropriate. Nor
is a comrel bug. I was expecting much better from such an experienced
developer as you, and a current council member on top of that.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Sergey Popov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2754 bytes --]

16.06.2014 00:44, Wulf C. Krueger пишет:
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> nomination on the same mailing list.
> 
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
> axs, blueness, hwoarang, angelos, zzam, dberkholz, zx2c4, bernalex,
> nixnut, hasufell, pchrist, suka, the_paya, keri, nicolasbock, mattm,
> nathanzachary, neurogeek, sochotnicky, zlogene, graaff, alonbl, yac,
> idella4, ottxor, remi, betelgeuse, marienz, leio, pva, polynomial-c,
> klausman, tommy, williamh, nightmorph, wired, hd_brummy, lordvan,
> iksaif, dastergon, hanno, qnikst, flameeyes, mschiff, steev, alexxy,
> chithanh, dilfridge, josejx, tgurr, vadimk, sera, zorry, kingtaco,
> ultrabug, jlec, ssuominen, klondike, ulm, mrueg, jauhien, tomjbe,
> think4urs11, hkbst, jaaf, darkside, vapier, tetromino, tomka,
> tampakrap, peper, jmorgan, johu, yngwin, swift, fordfrog, mabi,
> klieber, haubi, mgorny, mr_bones_, neddyseagoon, cedk, aidecoe,
> alunduil, nixphoeni, maekke, dang, flammie, rafaelmartins, ackle, xmw,
> ago, chainsaw, idl0r, lh, halcy0n, ken69267, araujo, bicatali, civil,
> lxnay, wschlich, elvanor, radhermit, joker, kumba, sping, gengor,
> jaervosz, jer, lu_zero, pinkbyte, jdhore, gurligebis, cynede, lejonet,
> vikraman, mjo, i92guboj, eras, djay, kallamej, keytoaster, slis, pjp,
> heroxbd, spiros, mduft, aballier, chiguire, redlizard, anarchy,
> caster, vincent, d2_racing, rhill, maksbotan, gregkh, isaiah, rich0,
> ryao, sdamashek, john_r_graham, djc, dolsen, naota, gienah, ikelos,
> floppym, ercpe, armin76, weaver, craig, nimiux, sbriesen, mattst88,
> grknight, tomk, miknix, nerdboy, scarabeus, blueboar, olemarkus,
> reavertm, deathwing00, grobian, nullishzero, eva, grozin, titanofold,
> gmsoft, calchan, moult, voyageur, slyfox, tristan, p8952, matsuu,
> quantumsummers, dlan, nativemad, twitch153, prometheanfire, fauli,
> a3li, kernelsensei, miska, solar, pacho, earthwings, jsbronder,
> xarthisius, jbartosik, chutzpah, george, zerochaos, jkt, dev-zero,
> kensington, fuzzyray, pesa, beandog, binki, hattya, tupone,
> blueknight, cardoe, lack, phosphan, je_fro, tomwij, fox, ranger,
> nirbheek, robbat2, thev00d00, pilla, vostorga, mpagano, blackace,
> phajdan.jr, psomas, billie, ramereth, desultory, zmedico, swegener,
> teiresias, matsl, jcallen, hparker
> 
> 
> 

Wow, enormous list. Near everybody(or all of us?) included.

Anyway, thanks, i accept the nomination.

-- 
Best regards, Sergey Popov
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Desktop Effects project lead
Gentoo Qt project lead
Gentoo Proxy maintainers project lead


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 16/06/14 13:22, Sergey Popov wrote:
> Wow, enormous list. Near everybody(or all of us?) included.
To save everyone some time, I did a quick diff between all devs & that
list. The following devs are not on that list:

< antarus
< creffett
< dabbott
< jmbsvicetto
< patrick

Everyone else is.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[David Abbott]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 16/06/14 13:22, Sergey Popov wrote:
>> Wow, enormous list. Near everybody(or all of us?) included.
> To save everyone some time, I did a quick diff between all devs & that
> list. The following devs are not on that list:
>
> < antarus
> < creffett
> < dabbott
> < jmbsvicetto
> < patrick
>
> Everyone else is.
> - --
> Alexander
> bernalex@gentoo.org
> https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
> iF4EAREIAAYFAlOe138ACgkQRtClrXBQc7VapgD+McZfSWNtuQ7Av2CJKd9T0PW+
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> =7zbD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

Sweet :) I'm with the in crowd!

-- 
David Abbott (dabbott)
Gentoo Foundation Secretary
http://dev.gentoo.org/~dabbott/

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Vladimir Romanov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1114 bytes --]

I decline.


2014-06-16 19:02 GMT+06:00 David Abbott <dabbott@gentoo.org>:

> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Alexander Berntsen <bernalex@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > On 16/06/14 13:22, Sergey Popov wrote:
> >> Wow, enormous list. Near everybody(or all of us?) included.
> > To save everyone some time, I did a quick diff between all devs & that
> > list. The following devs are not on that list:
> >
> > < antarus
> > < creffett
> > < dabbott
> > < jmbsvicetto
> > < patrick
> >
> > Everyone else is.
> > - --
> > Alexander
> > bernalex@gentoo.org
> > https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
> >
> > iF4EAREIAAYFAlOe138ACgkQRtClrXBQc7VapgD+McZfSWNtuQ7Av2CJKd9T0PW+
> > PX+/v60vApTXjFxwjeMBAJdLKAjCV9FsgxI79GnyD5LrBOfXUCYTzSSKWP/qVzAO
> > =7zbD
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
>
> Sweet :) I'm with the in crowd!
>
> --
> David Abbott (dabbott)
> Gentoo Foundation Secretary
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dabbott/
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jauhien Piatlicki]

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On 06/15/2014 10:44 PM, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> nomination on the same mailing list.
> 
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
> axs, blueness, hwoarang, angelos, zzam, dberkholz, zx2c4, bernalex,
> nixnut, hasufell, pchrist, suka, the_paya, keri, nicolasbock, mattm,
> nathanzachary, neurogeek, sochotnicky, zlogene, graaff, alonbl, yac,
> idella4, ottxor, remi, betelgeuse, marienz, leio, pva, polynomial-c,
> klausman, tommy, williamh, nightmorph, wired, hd_brummy, lordvan,
> iksaif, dastergon, hanno, qnikst, flameeyes, mschiff, steev, alexxy,
> chithanh, dilfridge, josejx, tgurr, vadimk, sera, zorry, kingtaco,
> ultrabug, jlec, ssuominen, klondike, ulm, mrueg, jauhien, tomjbe,
> think4urs11, hkbst, jaaf, darkside, vapier, tetromino, tomka,
> tampakrap, peper, jmorgan, johu, yngwin, swift, fordfrog, mabi,
> klieber, haubi, mgorny, mr_bones_, neddyseagoon, cedk, aidecoe,
> alunduil, nixphoeni, maekke, dang, flammie, rafaelmartins, ackle, xmw,
> ago, chainsaw, idl0r, lh, halcy0n, ken69267, araujo, bicatali, civil,
> lxnay, wschlich, elvanor, radhermit, joker, kumba, sping, gengor,
> jaervosz, jer, lu_zero, pinkbyte, jdhore, gurligebis, cynede, lejonet,
> vikraman, mjo, i92guboj, eras, djay, kallamej, keytoaster, slis, pjp,
> heroxbd, spiros, mduft, aballier, chiguire, redlizard, anarchy,
> caster, vincent, d2_racing, rhill, maksbotan, gregkh, isaiah, rich0,
> ryao, sdamashek, john_r_graham, djc, dolsen, naota, gienah, ikelos,
> floppym, ercpe, armin76, weaver, craig, nimiux, sbriesen, mattst88,
> grknight, tomk, miknix, nerdboy, scarabeus, blueboar, olemarkus,
> reavertm, deathwing00, grobian, nullishzero, eva, grozin, titanofold,
> gmsoft, calchan, moult, voyageur, slyfox, tristan, p8952, matsuu,
> quantumsummers, dlan, nativemad, twitch153, prometheanfire, fauli,
> a3li, kernelsensei, miska, solar, pacho, earthwings, jsbronder,
> xarthisius, jbartosik, chutzpah, george, zerochaos, jkt, dev-zero,
> kensington, fuzzyray, pesa, beandog, binki, hattya, tupone,
> blueknight, cardoe, lack, phosphan, je_fro, tomwij, fox, ranger,
> nirbheek, robbat2, thev00d00, pilla, vostorga, mpagano, blackace,
> phajdan.jr, psomas, billie, ramereth, desultory, zmedico, swegener,
> teiresias, matsl, jcallen, hparker
> 
> 
> 

Nice joke ;-)

I do not know if this will be filtered out as abuse of rules, but for
the case if it will be not -- I decline my nomination. )


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 15/06/14 22:44, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> bernalex,
By the way, I decline. I am not comfortable being nominated as a joke.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Richard Yao]

I accept.

On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:44 PM, "Wulf C. Krueger" <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> nomination on the same mailing list.
> 
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
> axs, blueness, hwoarang, angelos, zzam, dberkholz, zx2c4, bernalex,
> nixnut, hasufell, pchrist, suka, the_paya, keri, nicolasbock, mattm,
> nathanzachary, neurogeek, sochotnicky, zlogene, graaff, alonbl, yac,
> idella4, ottxor, remi, betelgeuse, marienz, leio, pva, polynomial-c,
> klausman, tommy, williamh, nightmorph, wired, hd_brummy, lordvan,
> iksaif, dastergon, hanno, qnikst, flameeyes, mschiff, steev, alexxy,
> chithanh, dilfridge, josejx, tgurr, vadimk, sera, zorry, kingtaco,
> ultrabug, jlec, ssuominen, klondike, ulm, mrueg, jauhien, tomjbe,
> think4urs11, hkbst, jaaf, darkside, vapier, tetromino, tomka,
> tampakrap, peper, jmorgan, johu, yngwin, swift, fordfrog, mabi,
> klieber, haubi, mgorny, mr_bones_, neddyseagoon, cedk, aidecoe,
> alunduil, nixphoeni, maekke, dang, flammie, rafaelmartins, ackle, xmw,
> ago, chainsaw, idl0r, lh, halcy0n, ken69267, araujo, bicatali, civil,
> lxnay, wschlich, elvanor, radhermit, joker, kumba, sping, gengor,
> jaervosz, jer, lu_zero, pinkbyte, jdhore, gurligebis, cynede, lejonet,
> vikraman, mjo, i92guboj, eras, djay, kallamej, keytoaster, slis, pjp,
> heroxbd, spiros, mduft, aballier, chiguire, redlizard, anarchy,
> caster, vincent, d2_racing, rhill, maksbotan, gregkh, isaiah, rich0,
> ryao, sdamashek, john_r_graham, djc, dolsen, naota, gienah, ikelos,
> floppym, ercpe, armin76, weaver, craig, nimiux, sbriesen, mattst88,
> grknight, tomk, miknix, nerdboy, scarabeus, blueboar, olemarkus,
> reavertm, deathwing00, grobian, nullishzero, eva, grozin, titanofold,
> gmsoft, calchan, moult, voyageur, slyfox, tristan, p8952, matsuu,
> quantumsummers, dlan, nativemad, twitch153, prometheanfire, fauli,
> a3li, kernelsensei, miska, solar, pacho, earthwings, jsbronder,
> xarthisius, jbartosik, chutzpah, george, zerochaos, jkt, dev-zero,
> kensington, fuzzyray, pesa, beandog, binki, hattya, tupone,
> blueknight, cardoe, lack, phosphan, je_fro, tomwij, fox, ranger,
> nirbheek, robbat2, thev00d00, pilla, vostorga, mpagano, blackace,
> phajdan.jr, psomas, billie, ramereth, desultory, zmedico, swegener,
> teiresias, matsl, jcallen, hparker
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Best regards, Wulf
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Samuli Suominen]

On 15/06/14 23:44, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> > All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
> > you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
> > nomination on the same mailing list.
>
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:


You don't have to be an developer to nomitate other developers?

Intresting.

- Samuli

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Thomas Raschbacher (Gentoo)]

On 2014-06-20 09:31, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> On 15/06/14 23:44, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
>> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> > All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> > you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> > nomination on the same mailing list.
>> 
>> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
> 
> You don't have to be an developer to nomitate other developers?
> 
> Intresting.
> 
> - Samuli

Well to quote the original email:

     * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
     * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
     * Nominees must accept their nomination before voting begins

So yes it does say *anyone* can nominate

;)

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Patrick Lauer]

On 06/16/14 04:44, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> nomination on the same mailing list.
> 
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
[snip]

As usual I accept the nomination.

I'm not sure if I'll bother with a manifesto, but there's still time ...

Have fun,

Patrick

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Thomas Kahle]

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On 15/06/14 22:44, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> On 14.06.2014 06:43, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If
>> you were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your
>> nomination on the same mailing list.
> 
> For good measure, I'd like to nominate these guys:
> 
> axs, blueness, hwoarang, angelos, zzam, dberkholz, zx2c4, bernalex,
> nixnut, hasufell, pchrist, suka, the_paya, keri, nicolasbock, mattm,
> nathanzachary, neurogeek, sochotnicky, zlogene, graaff, alonbl, yac,
> idella4, ottxor, remi, betelgeuse, marienz, leio, pva, polynomial-c,
> klausman, tommy, williamh, nightmorph, wired, hd_brummy, lordvan,
> iksaif, dastergon, hanno, qnikst, flameeyes, mschiff, steev, alexxy,
> chithanh, dilfridge, josejx, tgurr, vadimk, sera, zorry, kingtaco,
> ultrabug, jlec, ssuominen, klondike, ulm, mrueg, jauhien, tomjbe,
> think4urs11, hkbst, jaaf, darkside, vapier, tetromino, tomka,
> tampakrap, peper, jmorgan, johu, yngwin, swift, fordfrog, mabi,
> klieber, haubi, mgorny, mr_bones_, neddyseagoon, cedk, aidecoe,
> alunduil, nixphoeni, maekke, dang, flammie, rafaelmartins, ackle, xmw,
> ago, chainsaw, idl0r, lh, halcy0n, ken69267, araujo, bicatali, civil,
> lxnay, wschlich, elvanor, radhermit, joker, kumba, sping, gengor,
> jaervosz, jer, lu_zero, pinkbyte, jdhore, gurligebis, cynede, lejonet,
> vikraman, mjo, i92guboj, eras, djay, kallamej, keytoaster, slis, pjp,
> heroxbd, spiros, mduft, aballier, chiguire, redlizard, anarchy,
> caster, vincent, d2_racing, rhill, maksbotan, gregkh, isaiah, rich0,
> ryao, sdamashek, john_r_graham, djc, dolsen, naota, gienah, ikelos,
> floppym, ercpe, armin76, weaver, craig, nimiux, sbriesen, mattst88,
> grknight, tomk, miknix, nerdboy, scarabeus, blueboar, olemarkus,
> reavertm, deathwing00, grobian, nullishzero, eva, grozin, titanofold,
> gmsoft, calchan, moult, voyageur, slyfox, tristan, p8952, matsuu,
> quantumsummers, dlan, nativemad, twitch153, prometheanfire, fauli,
> a3li, kernelsensei, miska, solar, pacho, earthwings, jsbronder,
> xarthisius, jbartosik, chutzpah, george, zerochaos, jkt, dev-zero,
> kensington, fuzzyray, pesa, beandog, binki, hattya, tupone,
> blueknight, cardoe, lack, phosphan, je_fro, tomwij, fox, ranger,
> nirbheek, robbat2, thev00d00, pilla, vostorga, mpagano, blackace,
> phajdan.jr, psomas, billie, ramereth, desultory, zmedico, swegener,
> teiresias, matsl, jcallen, hparker

Thank you, but I decline.

Cheers,
Thomas


-- 
Thomas Kahle
http://dev.gentoo.org/~tomka/


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Chris Reffett]

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On June 14, 2014 12:43:14 AM EDT, "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
>00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
>weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).

I nominate (no particular order, all are technically nominated already but wanted to add my specific nominations anyway):
-kensington
-floppym
-axs
-williamh
-dilfridge
-rich0

Chris Reffett

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Ian Stakenvicius]

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On 17/06/14 09:55 AM, Chris Reffett wrote:
> On June 14, 2014 12:43:14 AM EDT, "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" 
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started
>> at 00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the
>> next two weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).
> 
> I nominate (no particular order, all are technically nominated
> already but wanted to add my specific nominations anyway): 
> -kensington -floppym -axs -williamh -dilfridge -rich0
> 
> Chris Reffett


Thank you for the (seconded) nomination!

Unfortunately for this year, I feel that i'm still a bit too green to
be able to be an authority on the matters Council decides on, plus I
do not believe that this year I will have enough spare time to be able
to allocate to educating myself properly on the issues that will
arise.  As such I shall decline.

(my politi-speak is coming along, tho! :) next year i'll be ready to
serve)
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Re: Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Dienstag 17 Juni 2014, 09:55:29 schrieb Chris Reffett:
> 
> I nominate (no particular order, all are technically nominated already but
> wanted to add my specific nominations anyway): 
(...)
> -dilfridge

Thanks Chris. I accept the nomination. 

(I guess whose nomination I accept does not matter. :)

More over the next days.

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer
kde, council

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Andreas K. Huettel:
> Am Dienstag 17 Juni 2014, 09:55:29 schrieb Chris Reffett:
>>
>> I nominate (no particular order, all are technically nominated already but
>> wanted to add my specific nominations anyway): 
> (...)
>> -dilfridge
> 
> Thanks Chris. I accept the nomination. 
> 
> (I guess whose nomination I accept does not matter. :)
> 
> More over the next days.
> 

From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
conflict of interest.

Council and ComRel should check on each other. If someone is member of
both, then it is likely that he will avoid acting against either party
even if it necessary.

Some worst case scenarios:
* you have a problem with a council member => you go to ComRel in need
of help
* you have a problem with a ComRel member => you go to council, because
going to ComRel isn't necessarily an option (e.g. the person is the
ComRel lead or you think that ComRel isn't in a functional state)
* If someone is on both parties and you got a problem with him, then the
situation is delicate and checks and balances are likely to fail

This isn't a personal thing with you. I just think it's a flaw in the
system and even if I trust you to be able to handle it... it should
still not be allowed, IMO.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:41:46 +0000
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> * you have a problem with a council member => you go to ComRel in need
> of help

The Council is the ultimate authority. ComRel has no power over it.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Ciaran McCreesh:
> On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:41:46 +0000
> hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> * you have a problem with a council member => you go to ComRel in need
>> of help
> 
> The Council is the ultimate authority. ComRel has no power over it.
> 

I'm not sure if you understand the point of ComRel. It's not ruling by
authority.

However, the worst case is that someone will not contact anyone if he's
got a problem with a guy who is both on council and comrel.

Similar problems have happened in the past, that should be clear. If you
don't believe me, check gentoo-core.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Tue, 1 Jul 2014 17:47:49 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:41:46 +0000
> hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > * you have a problem with a council member => you go to ComRel in
> > need of help
> 
> The Council is the ultimate authority.

That doesn't grant each member an ultimate authority ...

> ComRel has no power over it.

... therefore they do have a certain set of intermediate power.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:41 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
> conflict of interest.
>

The term "conflict of interest" gets thrown around rather loosely IMHO.

A conflict of interest is when somebody stands to personally gain from
a decision.  If somebody on the council or comrel banned you from an
IRC channel, and you brought this to comrel, then it would be a
conflict of interest if the accused party voted on their own case.
Anything short of this really isn't a true conflict IMHO.

Many courts will hear appeals with a small number of judges with the
possibility to appeal to a larger set of judges, and the original
judges get to vote in both cases.  That isn't a conflict of interest -
just division of labor.

When you appeal a Comrel case to the Council the purpose of the appeal
is to decide what to do with the parties involved - it isn't a
judgement on Comrel itself, though Comrel should be guided by the
decision in any future actions it takes.

Anybody dissatisfied with a Comrel decision can appeal to Council,
which is a group of 7 people selected by the developer community to
represent them.

But, anyone is free to not vote for Comrel members.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Chris Reffett]

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On July 1, 2014 1:02:34 PM EDT, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:41 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
>> conflict of interest.
>>
>
>The term "conflict of interest" gets thrown around rather loosely IMHO.
>
>A conflict of interest is when somebody stands to personally gain from
>a decision.  If somebody on the council or comrel banned you from an
>IRC channel, and you brought this to comrel, then it would be a
>conflict of interest if the accused party voted on their own case.
>Anything short of this really isn't a true conflict IMHO.
>
>Many courts will hear appeals with a small number of judges with the
>possibility to appeal to a larger set of judges, and the original
>judges get to vote in both cases.  That isn't a conflict of interest -
>just division of labor.
>
>When you appeal a Comrel case to the Council the purpose of the appeal
>is to decide what to do with the parties involved - it isn't a
>judgement on Comrel itself, though Comrel should be guided by the
>decision in any future actions it takes.
>
>Anybody dissatisfied with a Comrel decision can appeal to Council,
>which is a group of 7 people selected by the developer community to
>represent them.
>
>But, anyone is free to not vote for Comrel members.
>
>Rich

Moreover, I think that anyone who is both comrel/council would recuse himself from a vote if it the vote's outcome directly affected him. That is, if I were to (for example) start a comrel complaint against dilfridge, and then appealed it to council, I'm certain that he would abstain from voting in the matter because that is explicitly a conflict of interest since one of the vote options clearly benefits him. If he voted on a case that he handled as a member of comrel, however, that isn't a conflict of interest because he doesn't stand to gain from the vote (unless comrel starts rewarding people for getting the most "convictions," in which case I think we have bigger problems to deal with...)

Chris Reffett

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Rich Freeman:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:41 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
>> conflict of interest.
>>
> 
> The term "conflict of interest" gets thrown around rather loosely IMHO.
> 
> A conflict of interest is when somebody stands to personally gain from
> a decision.  If somebody on the council or comrel banned you from an
> IRC channel, and you brought this to comrel, then it would be a
> conflict of interest if the accused party voted on their own case.
> Anything short of this really isn't a true conflict IMHO.
> 
> Many courts will hear appeals with a small number of judges with the
> possibility to appeal to a larger set of judges, and the original
> judges get to vote in both cases.  That isn't a conflict of interest -
> just division of labor.
> 
> When you appeal a Comrel case to the Council the purpose of the appeal
> is to decide what to do with the parties involved - it isn't a
> judgement on Comrel itself, though Comrel should be guided by the
> decision in any future actions it takes.
> 
> Anybody dissatisfied with a Comrel decision can appeal to Council,
> which is a group of 7 people selected by the developer community to
> represent them.
> 
> But, anyone is free to not vote for Comrel members.
> 

So you are basically saying a conflict of interest can happen and when
it does, everyone will actually realize it and also act appropriately.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So you are basically saying a conflict of interest can happen and when
> it does, everyone will actually realize it and also act appropriately.
>

Well, if people don't do that, then you're up the creek no matter what
system of governance you come up with.

SOMEBODY has to make the final decision, and they can always have a
conflict of interest.

Unless half the council is in on the original offense, it really only
makes a difference if it is a close call.  So, avoid doing things that
would tick off half the council and you should be fine.  :)

This is no different than a majority of trustees being able to sell
the Foundation to your least favorite IT vendor.  If you're going to
vote a bunch of untrustworthy individuals into office, then you might
not like the result.

I don't see a practical alternative.  The kinds of skills that you
need to be a decent Trustee, Council member, or Comrel member overlap
significantly.  We aren't exactly a huge organization.  So, we either
have to accept overlap, or put people into these roles that we might
otherwise not want to.  There is also QA and Infra to consider - do we
not allow anybody to be on more than one of these teams?

Ridh

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Rich Freeman:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> So you are basically saying a conflict of interest can happen and when
>> it does, everyone will actually realize it and also act appropriately.
>>
> 
> Well, if people don't do that, then you're up the creek no matter what
> system of governance you come up with.
> 
> SOMEBODY has to make the final decision, and they can always have a
> conflict of interest.
> 
> Unless half the council is in on the original offense, it really only
> makes a difference if it is a close call.  So, avoid doing things that
> would tick off half the council and you should be fine.  :)
> 
> This is no different than a majority of trustees being able to sell
> the Foundation to your least favorite IT vendor.  If you're going to
> vote a bunch of untrustworthy individuals into office, then you might
> not like the result.
> 
> I don't see a practical alternative.  The kinds of skills that you
> need to be a decent Trustee, Council member, or Comrel member overlap
> significantly.  We aren't exactly a huge organization.  So, we either
> have to accept overlap, or put people into these roles that we might
> otherwise not want to.  There is also QA and Infra to consider - do we
> not allow anybody to be on more than one of these teams?
> 


Then I hope dilfridge and jlec respond to this thread, so I can make a
decision on how to vote.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Justin (jlec)]

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On 02/07/14 13:04, hasufell wrote:
> Rich Freeman:
>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> So you are basically saying a conflict of interest can happen and when
>>> it does, everyone will actually realize it and also act appropriately.
>>>
>>
>> Well, if people don't do that, then you're up the creek no matter what
>> system of governance you come up with.
>>
>> SOMEBODY has to make the final decision, and they can always have a
>> conflict of interest.
>>
>> Unless half the council is in on the original offense, it really only
>> makes a difference if it is a close call.  So, avoid doing things that
>> would tick off half the council and you should be fine.  :)
>>
>> This is no different than a majority of trustees being able to sell
>> the Foundation to your least favorite IT vendor.  If you're going to
>> vote a bunch of untrustworthy individuals into office, then you might
>> not like the result.
>>
>> I don't see a practical alternative.  The kinds of skills that you
>> need to be a decent Trustee, Council member, or Comrel member overlap
>> significantly.  We aren't exactly a huge organization.  So, we either
>> have to accept overlap, or put people into these roles that we might
>> otherwise not want to.  There is also QA and Infra to consider - do we
>> not allow anybody to be on more than one of these teams?
>>
> 
> 
> Then I hope dilfridge and jlec respond to this thread, so I can make a
> decision on how to vote.
> 

Hi Julian,

I definitely understand your worries that placing the power of Comrel
and its controlling counterpart into the same person.
And I thought about this before, but as said by others, there are a
number of reason why the situation isn't as bad as it seems.

Each team, council and ComRel consists of several members who should
counterbalance any problematic situation. Two thoughts came to my mind
here, should we regulate the number of people being in both teams? and
should we exclude council members being in ComRel from any decision
where the council needs to act upon ComRel? The first one would avoid
that ComRel takes over the council and the second obviously would tackle
your concerns.

Has there been a case where a "conflict of interest" happened in
reality? And couldn't be solved? I don't know any, but I can be wrong
here. Nevertheless, we shouldn't forget the argument Rich came up with,
we aren't many people and if there are persons who bring the competency
for both jobs and are willing to spent the time, then we really should
try to build on that rather then trying to create a problem.

I am a doing recruiting, which is a subproject of ComRel and makes me to
a ComRel member. But normally I don't feel responsible to act in the
interpersonal cases. So in the end there are different types of ComRel
members.

In the end, I would look onto the person and not onto the tables telling
you in which teams they are. There will be double seated ComRel+Council
members who will be fair and objective, but there also will be solely
council members, who will be pain when you need the council to resolve
conflicts. So we should choose the right persons based on their personality.


Justin


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 07/02/14 09:10, Justin (jlec) wrote:
> On 02/07/14 13:04, hasufell wrote:
>> Rich Freeman:
>>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> So you are basically saying a conflict of interest can happen and when
>>>> it does, everyone will actually realize it and also act appropriately.
>>>>
>>> Well, if people don't do that, then you're up the creek no matter what
>>> system of governance you come up with.
>>>
>>> SOMEBODY has to make the final decision, and they can always have a
>>> conflict of interest.
>>>
>>> Unless half the council is in on the original offense, it really only
>>> makes a difference if it is a close call.  So, avoid doing things that
>>> would tick off half the council and you should be fine.  :)
>>>
>>> This is no different than a majority of trustees being able to sell
>>> the Foundation to your least favorite IT vendor.  If you're going to
>>> vote a bunch of untrustworthy individuals into office, then you might
>>> not like the result.
>>>
>>> I don't see a practical alternative.  The kinds of skills that you
>>> need to be a decent Trustee, Council member, or Comrel member overlap
>>> significantly.  We aren't exactly a huge organization.  So, we either
>>> have to accept overlap, or put people into these roles that we might
>>> otherwise not want to.  There is also QA and Infra to consider - do we
>>> not allow anybody to be on more than one of these teams?
>>>
>>
>> Then I hope dilfridge and jlec respond to this thread, so I can make a
>> decision on how to vote.
>>
> Hi Julian,
>
> I definitely understand your worries that placing the power of Comrel
> and its controlling counterpart into the same person.
> And I thought about this before, but as said by others, there are a
> number of reason why the situation isn't as bad as it seems.
>
> Each team, council and ComRel consists of several members who should
> counterbalance any problematic situation. Two thoughts came to my mind
> here, should we regulate the number of people being in both teams? and
> should we exclude council members being in ComRel from any decision
> where the council needs to act upon ComRel? The first one would avoid
> that ComRel takes over the council and the second obviously would tackle
> your concerns.
>
> Has there been a case where a "conflict of interest" happened in
> reality? And couldn't be solved? I don't know any, but I can be wrong
> here. Nevertheless, we shouldn't forget the argument Rich came up with,
> we aren't many people and if there are persons who bring the competency
> for both jobs and are willing to spent the time, then we really should
> try to build on that rather then trying to create a problem.
>
> I am a doing recruiting, which is a subproject of ComRel and makes me to
> a ComRel member. But normally I don't feel responsible to act in the
> interpersonal cases. So in the end there are different types of ComRel
> members.
>
> In the end, I would look onto the person and not onto the tables telling
> you in which teams they are. There will be double seated ComRel+Council
> members who will be fair and objective, but there also will be solely
> council members, who will be pain when you need the council to resolve
> conflicts. So we should choose the right persons based on their personality.
>
>
> Justin
>

I think a distinction is getting blurred between lack of integrity and 
conflict of interest.  You can have a situation where everyone acts with 
the utmost integrity and there still exists a conflict of interest.   We 
vote for members of the council because presumably they have gained our 
respect by showing objectivity, integrity, fairness and good judgment.  
(Technical skill too, but that's orthogonal).  This trust, which is 
measured by voting, is what gives the Council legitimacy as the highest 
seat of power within Gentoo. However, we know that no one is above bad 
judgment, bias, self-interest, etc.  If a person is put in a position 
where the Council's interests are in direct opposition to ComRel (eg the 
Council must censure ComRel), any decision that person makes will be 
questionable --- were they really objective?  This in turn erodes our 
trust in the Council and its legitimacy.  Then we have flame wars.

Having said that, we can opt to not allow members of ComRel to be on the 
Council in which case the conflict of interest is a moot point. Or we 
can trust that the individuals involved will have enough integrity to 
recognize the conflict and abstain.  Or the rest of the community or 
council can ask them to abstain.  Etc.  As long as the decisions made 
are made by those who appear to be "untainted" by the issues we 
shouldn't have any problems.  People will respect the Council's final 
decisions.

BTW, the possibility of a conflict of interest exists between any 
project and the council,  Uts just that given ComRel's policing powers, 
we don't want too much concentration of power in a few individuals.

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Michał Górny]

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Dnia 2014-07-01, o godz. 16:41:46
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> napisał(a):

> Andreas K. Huettel:
> > Am Dienstag 17 Juni 2014, 09:55:29 schrieb Chris Reffett:
> >>
> >> I nominate (no particular order, all are technically nominated already but
> >> wanted to add my specific nominations anyway): 
> > (...)
> >> -dilfridge
> > 
> > Thanks Chris. I accept the nomination. 
> > 
> > (I guess whose nomination I accept does not matter. :)
> > 
> > More over the next days.
> > 
> 
> From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
> conflict of interest.
> 
> Council and ComRel should check on each other. If someone is member of
> both, then it is likely that he will avoid acting against either party
> even if it necessary.

I don't think that's really a problem. In the worst case, the remaining
members of the team can take action.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
> conflict of interest.
> 
> Council and ComRel should check on each other. If someone is member of
> both, then it is likely that he will avoid acting against either party
> even if it necessary.
> 
> Some worst case scenarios:
> * you have a problem with a council member => you go to ComRel in need
> of help
> * you have a problem with a ComRel member => you go to council, because
> going to ComRel isn't necessarily an option (e.g. the person is the
> ComRel lead or you think that ComRel isn't in a functional state)
> * If someone is on both parties and you got a problem with him, then the
> situation is delicate and checks and balances are likely to fail

Hey Julian, 

a few points can be made here (and have already been made in this thread). 
Let's first talk about the general situation...

First of all, both comrel decisions and council decisions are always team 
actions. You may have seen the situation of "one comrel guy talks to someone 
and tells him 'please behave'". While this certainly has an effect, and would 
have been communicated within the comrel team, it does not have much formal 
meaning. In the (luckily rather rare) cases where a formal comrel decision 
that has consequences is needed, the steps are documented in detail, including 
who was involved in the decision making. 

[If you look at old public bugs tracking such events, you get across texts 
like "This suspension was agreed upon by x, y, z, a, b, and c. d also agreed 
with the decision."]

The council has 7 members, comrel currently 15. So, even if an individual 
developer were in both groups and would really cast votes on both levels, that 
would not give this individual power to "box through" decisions on both 
levels. That said, I see it as good practice not to take part in any decision 
on both levels (and intend to stick to that should the case ever arise).

Now about me personally...

I was invited to join (then) devrel a short time before I was first elected to 
the council. For a large part I'm still trying to learn from the "comrel 
ancients" how things are done there, which is not so easy as long as (luckily) 
not much is happening. I consider the council work more important, and have 
only limited time. For these reasons, I tend to take things slow in comrel so 
far and prefer if other people pick up the phone.

Cheers, 
Andreas


-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer
kde, council

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 07/02/14 17:14, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>
>>  From what I see you are on both council and comrel. I think that is a
>> conflict of interest.
>>
>> Council and ComRel should check on each other. If someone is member of
>> both, then it is likely that he will avoid acting against either party
>> even if it necessary.
>>
>> Some worst case scenarios:
>> * you have a problem with a council member => you go to ComRel in need
>> of help
>> * you have a problem with a ComRel member => you go to council, because
>> going to ComRel isn't necessarily an option (e.g. the person is the
>> ComRel lead or you think that ComRel isn't in a functional state)
>> * If someone is on both parties and you got a problem with him, then the
>> situation is delicate and checks and balances are likely to fail
>
> Hey Julian,
>
> a few points can be made here (and have already been made in this thread).
> Let's first talk about the general situation...
>
> First of all, both comrel decisions and council decisions are always team
> actions. You may have seen the situation of "one comrel guy talks to someone
> and tells him 'please behave'". While this certainly has an effect, and would
> have been communicated within the comrel team, it does not have much formal
> meaning. In the (luckily rather rare) cases where a formal comrel decision
> that has consequences is needed, the steps are documented in detail, including
> who was involved in the decision making.
>
> [If you look at old public bugs tracking such events, you get across texts
> like "This suspension was agreed upon by x, y, z, a, b, and c. d also agreed
> with the decision."]
>
> The council has 7 members, comrel currently 15. So, even if an individual
> developer were in both groups and would really cast votes on both levels, that
> would not give this individual power to "box through" decisions on both
> levels. That said, I see it as good practice not to take part in any decision
> on both levels (and intend to stick to that should the case ever arise).
>
> Now about me personally...
>
> I was invited to join (then) devrel a short time before I was first elected to
> the council. For a large part I'm still trying to learn from the "comrel
> ancients" how things are done there, which is not so easy as long as (luckily)
> not much is happening. I consider the council work more important, and have
> only limited time. For these reasons, I tend to take things slow in comrel so
> far and prefer if other people pick up the phone.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>
>


Hi Andreas,

<devil's advocate>

ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and they 
have asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people 
who voted for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good conscience, you 
think it was the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the council?  Do 
you criticize comrel or do you uphold their decision?

</devil's advocate>


-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph. D.
Chair of Information Technology
D'Youville College
Buffalo, NY 14201
(716) 829-8197

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 07/03/2014 01:27 PM, Anthony G. Basile wrote:
> On 07/02/14 17:14, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>> 


..


> Hi Andreas,
> 
> <devil's advocate>
> 
> ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and
> they have asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the
> people who voted for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good
> conscience, you think it was the right thing to do.  How do you
> vote on the council?  Do you criticize comrel or do you uphold
> their decision?
> 
> </devil's advocate>

... or you do as is common when things like that happens in other
scenarios and recuse yourself from voting on that specific matter
leaving it to the rest of the board/team/group, hence removing double
about potential bias.

- -- 
- ----------------------------
Kristian Fiskerstrand
Blog: http://blog.sumptuouscapital.com
Twitter: @krifisk
- ----------------------------
Public PGP key 0xE3EDFAE3 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3
- ----------------------------
Fabricando fit faber
Practice makes perfect
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 07/03/2014 01:31 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 07/03/2014 01:27 PM, Anthony G. Basile wrote:
...

> 
> ... or you do as is common when things like that happens in other 
> scenarios and recuse yourself from voting on that specific matter 
> leaving it to the rest of the board/team/group, hence removing
> double about potential bias.

The brain works in mysterious ways some time, that was supposed to be
"doubt", and not the double my mind was processing for another
application...

- -- 
- ----------------------------
Kristian Fiskerstrand
Blog: http://blog.sumptuouscapital.com
Twitter: @krifisk
- ----------------------------
Public PGP key 0xE3EDFAE3 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3
- ----------------------------
Divide et impera
Divide and govern
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Anthony G. Basile
<basile@opensource.dyc.edu> wrote:
>
> ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and they have
> asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people who voted
> for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good conscience, you think it was
> the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the council?  Do you criticize
> comrel or do you uphold their decision?
>

How is this any different from any other issue where some devs ask the
council to do something that a council member feels in good conscience
shouldn't be done?

Either you trust a council member to do the right thing, or you don't.

If one team is censuring another that is a sign that we've already
failed.  We shouldn't be putting people into power who can't agree on
anything - that just leads to chaos.  As a community we should be
deciding how we want things run, and then put people into both ComRel
and the Council who uphold that.  That is why I think that the
adjustments that were made to QA were a good thing.

Infighting is a sign of poor governance, not good checks and balances.
This isn't some country where millions of people vote and 80% of them
pull a party lever - we have <250 voters and I hope that most of us
know what is going on here and can pick the right candidates.  We
don't need to create opposing centers of power so that we can watch
nothing get done out of fear that if something does get done it will
be the wrong thing.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 07/03/14 07:39, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Anthony G. Basile
> <basile@opensource.dyc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and they have
>> asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people who voted
>> for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good conscience, you think it was
>> the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the council?  Do you criticize
>> comrel or do you uphold their decision?
>>
>
> How is this any different from any other issue where some devs ask the
> council to do something that a council member feels in good conscience
> shouldn't be done?
>
> Either you trust a council member to do the right thing, or you don't.

No, its not that you trust someone or you don't --- you might trust them 
in some situations but not others.  Usually the discriminating factor is 
whether the person is "untainted" by the issue, ie. you can't see any 
reason why they would judge one way or another out of self-interest.  We 
sometimes call this "objectivity".  Part of the subtext I see in this 
thread is "how do we structure our governance such that we preserve 
objectivity."  So, my answer is you probably can't and when someone 
finds themselves in what is perceived as a conflict of interest by many 
(even if the person himself doesn't think so), then abtain.

>
> If one team is censuring another that is a sign that we've already
> failed.  We shouldn't be putting people into power who can't agree on
> anything - that just leads to chaos.  As a community we should be
> deciding how we want things run, and then put people into both ComRel
> and the Council who uphold that.  That is why I think that the
> adjustments that were made to QA were a good thing.
>
> Infighting is a sign of poor governance, not good checks and balances.
> This isn't some country where millions of people vote and 80% of them
> pull a party lever - we have <250 voters and I hope that most of us
> know what is going on here and can pick the right candidates.  We
> don't need to create opposing centers of power so that we can watch
> nothing get done out of fear that if something does get done it will
> be the wrong thing.
>
> Rich
>


-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> No, its not that you trust someone or you don't --- you might trust them in
> some situations but not others.  Usually the discriminating factor is
> whether the person is "untainted" by the issue, ie. you can't see any reason
> why they would judge one way or another out of self-interest.  We sometimes
> call this "objectivity".  Part of the subtext I see in this thread is "how
> do we structure our governance such that we preserve objectivity."  So, my
> answer is you probably can't and when someone finds themselves in what is
> perceived as a conflict of interest by many (even if the person himself
> doesn't think so), then abtain.
>

I'll buy everything you said but your use of the word "many."  I would
not consider your example a conflict of interest.

If I'm on the Council and the Council is asked to censure me, I'll
recuse myself.  If I'm on the Council and the Council is asked to
censure I team I happen to be a member of, I probably won't recuse
myself.  If that concerns anybody, then don't vote for me.  :)

I don't plan on recusing myself from discussions indirectly impacting
packages I use/maintain either, unless there really is some kind of
personal issue at stake.

I don't really get all that attached to things like this.  Maybe some
would have difficulty fairly re-evaluating a decision they partook in,
or even made themselves.  I try not to.  If the Council decides to
boot some package I maintain from the tree, that's what overlays are
for.  When I come into a Council meeting I try to add value in the
discussion, and I've been known to vote differently than I intended to
walking in.  If it were otherwise I'd suggest that we quite wasting
time with meetings and just vote in bug comments or by email or
something.

If somebody feels they can't be impartial on a decision due to
personal bias and wish to abstain, then I fully support them in this.
Heck, if there were a huge outcry (meaning lots of devs, not a dozen
devs making lots of posts) I'd probably also recuse myself.  I just
don't feel the need to abstain from a decision because a few people
will get upset by it - I try to find compromises when we can, but you
can never please everybody.

That's my opinion, anyway.  I'm opposed to the mandatory non-overlap
in the Council and Trustees as well, but as long as those are the
rules I follow them like everybody else does...

Rich

Re: Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2014, 07:27:14 schrieb Anthony G. Basile:

> 
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> <devil's advocate>
> 
> ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and they
> have asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people
> who voted for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good conscience, you
> think it was the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the council?  Do
> you criticize comrel or do you uphold their decision?
> 
> </devil's advocate>

Abstain.

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer
kde, council

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 07/03/14 09:47, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2014, 07:27:14 schrieb Anthony G. Basile:
>
>>
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> <devil's advocate>
>>
>> ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and they
>> have asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people
>> who voted for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good conscience, you
>> think it was the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the council?  Do
>> you criticize comrel or do you uphold their decision?
>>
>> </devil's advocate>
>
> Abstain.
>

Exactly, so the conflict of interest exists and there is no way to make 
it go away.  You just maintain your integrity by not entering into it, 
ie abstain.  The community's confidence in the individual in question is 
not compromised and the final decision is respected.

Anyhow we'll never streamline our governance so that conflicts of 
interest go away.  We can improve things, but never make them go away.
So we can live with someone on comrel and the council with the caveat 
that we remain vigilant for conflicts of interest.

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014, Anthony G. Basile wrote:

> On 07/03/14 09:47, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>  Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2014, 07:27:14 schrieb Anthony G. Basile:
>> 
>> > 
>> >  Hi Andreas,
>> > 
>> >  <devil's advocate>
>> > 
>> >  ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and they
>> >  have asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people
>> >  who voted for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good conscience, you
>> >  think it was the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the council?  Do
>> >  you criticize comrel or do you uphold their decision?
>> > 
>> >  </devil's advocate>
>>
>>  Abstain.
>> 
>
> Exactly, so the conflict of interest exists and there is no way to make it go 
> away.  You just maintain your integrity by not entering into it, ie abstain. 
> The community's confidence in the individual in question is not compromised 
> and the final decision is respected.

The potential for "conflict of interests" is the reason any candidate 
that is a member of ComRel (in the past devrel) gets flagged, so that 
voters are aware of that. That is the same reason Trustees are flagged.
This fear of a ComRel "cabal" in my view seems to have been born of a fear 
or distrust of some developers, mostly more recent developers, that either 
don't know or don't understand ComRel and tend to see if as a "old men 
club" that is "closed" to them. I think it's a pity such a sentiment was 
born and has grown. I can assure you most of you would absolutely "hate" 
having to deal with ComRel issues. I don't think there's any other team 
where one can feel so unwanted and frustrated while trying to do our best 
for this community.
Anyway, I disagree with and will vote against any attempt to prevent 
election to the Council for being part of any Gentoo team. For those that 
are confused, nothing prevents a Trstee member from being elected to the 
Council. It's the Foundation Bylaws that state that if a Trustee is 
elected to the Council, he / she will have to pick one of the jobs and 
quit the other.
Also, it's "funny" to see the recent (past 2 or 3 years?) concerns with 
ComRel members in the Council, when I believe we had a Council term with 
3 DevRel members and at least 1 ComRel member in all Council terms.
If you're concerned, don't vote for a ComRel member. I would prefer people 
voted based on the candidates than just what teams they are members of, 
but alas, the vote is up to the voter! ;)

> Anyhow we'll never streamline our governance so that conflicts of interest go 
> away.  We can improve things, but never make them go away.
> So we can live with someone on comrel and the council with the caveat that we 
> remain vigilant for conflicts of interest.

My comments above were meant to the general thread, not specifically to 
this email - although you also raise some concerns here.

Regards,

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Gentoo Developer
(probably seen by some as one of the "old beard"
and a former Council, while in ComRel, member)

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Patrick Lauer]

On 07/04/14 08:59, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2014, Anthony G. Basile wrote:
> 
>> On 07/03/14 09:47, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>>  Am Donnerstag 03 Juli 2014, 07:27:14 schrieb Anthony G. Basile:
>>>
>>> > >  Hi Andreas,
>>> > >  <devil's advocate>
>>> > >  ComRel has acted in a way that some devs think was "unfair" and
>>> they
>>> >  have asked the council to censure comrel.  You were one of the people
>>> >  who voted for the allegedly unfair action.  In all good
>>> conscience, you
>>> >  think it was the right thing to do.  How do you vote on the
>>> council?  Do
>>> >  you criticize comrel or do you uphold their decision?
>>> > >  </devil's advocate>
>>>
>>>  Abstain.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly, so the conflict of interest exists and there is no way to
>> make it go away.  You just maintain your integrity by not entering
>> into it, ie abstain. The community's confidence in the individual in
>> question is not compromised and the final decision is respected.
> 
> The potential for "conflict of interests" is the reason any candidate
> that is a member of ComRel (in the past devrel) gets flagged, so that
> voters are aware of that. That is the same reason Trustees are flagged.
> This fear of a ComRel "cabal" in my view seems to have been born of a
> fear or distrust of some developers, mostly more recent developers, that
> either don't know or don't understand ComRel and tend to see if as a
> "old men club" that is "closed" to them. I think it's a pity such a
> sentiment was born and has grown. 

Blame your predecessors who followed a scorched earth policy - it'll
take lots of time to gain trust

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 07/04/14 08:59, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>
>> The potential for "conflict of interests" is the reason any candidate
>> that is a member of ComRel (in the past devrel) gets flagged, so that
>> voters are aware of that. That is the same reason Trustees are flagged.
>> This fear of a ComRel "cabal" in my view seems to have been born of a
>> fear or distrust of some developers, mostly more recent developers, that
>> either don't know or don't understand ComRel and tend to see if as a
>> "old men club" that is "closed" to them. I think it's a pity such a
>> sentiment was born and has grown.
>
> Blame your predecessors who followed a scorched earth policy - it'll
> take lots of time to gain trust
>

Honestly, I'd be a proponent of making ComRel more transparent in
terms of its constitution.  It deals with sensitive issues and I don't
have a problem with the details of what they do being held in
confidence unless the parties involved want them to be public.
However, there is no need for the actual organization of the team to
be non-open.

I'll just toss out some ideas and maybe some will be helpful.  Please
note that I'm not suggesting that anybody is really trying to keep
secrets here - it is just easier to have a discussion and not write up
minutes than it is to announce things on lists, and so things probably
happen that way.

1.  Announced elections, membership changes, etc.  When these things
happen, publish it on -project, or at least on the team page.  Make it
easy for everybody to see what is going on with the
membership/leadership of ComRel.  There is no need for the annual lead
election to be secret.

2.  Announced and open regular meetings.  Meetings could have an open
and a closed component if actual cases are to be discussed.  Things
like policy can be discussed in the open.  I don't know how meetings
are held now, but the closed part can happen wherever things happen
today, and the open part could be in #gentoo-meetings or such with
published logs.  Maybe you meet for 30 minutes in the open and then 30
minutes closed.  Or maybe every other meeting is open.  Figure out
what works for the team, but with the goal of giving the community
more insight and influence over anything which isn't personal.   The
Trustees routinely deal with closed bugs that contain personal or
financial details we don't want on the Internet, but any actual
decisions are in the open.  So, everybody can see that we're spending
$500 on some server, without seeing scans of checks and credit card
numbers.

3.  This is a bigger change, but I'd advocate doing with ComRel what
was done last year with QA.  Have the team self-governing for the most
part, but with the Council having to confirm the lead and basically
having the effective ability to take over if necessary.  I'd highly
discourage the Council ever doing that, but I'd look at it a bit like
being able to Impeach or Recall an elected official - just a way to
have accountability and the mandate that goes along with that.

All of that goes far beyond whether there is overlap in Council/team membership.

QA has basically been doing all three of these and I think it has been
a good change.  Sure, not everybody agrees with everything the new
team has been doing, but the fact is that at least everybody knows
what is going on, who is in charge, and how they got to be in charge.
I think those are steps in the right direction.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 07/04/14 08:59, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>>
>>> The potential for "conflict of interests" is the reason any candidate
>>> that is a member of ComRel (in the past devrel) gets flagged, so that
>>> voters are aware of that. That is the same reason Trustees are flagged.
>>> This fear of a ComRel "cabal" in my view seems to have been born of a
>>> fear or distrust of some developers, mostly more recent developers, that
>>> either don't know or don't understand ComRel and tend to see if as a
>>> "old men club" that is "closed" to them. I think it's a pity such a
>>> sentiment was born and has grown.
>>
>> Blame your predecessors who followed a scorched earth policy - it'll
>> take lots of time to gain trust
>>
>
> Honestly, I'd be a proponent of making ComRel more transparent in
> terms of its constitution.  It deals with sensitive issues and I don't
> have a problem with the details of what they do being held in
> confidence unless the parties involved want them to be public.
> However, there is no need for the actual organization of the team to
> be non-open.
>
> I'll just toss out some ideas and maybe some will be helpful.  Please
> note that I'm not suggesting that anybody is really trying to keep
> secrets here - it is just easier to have a discussion and not write up
> minutes than it is to announce things on lists, and so things probably
> happen that way.
>
> 1.  Announced elections, membership changes, etc.  When these things
> happen, publish it on -project, or at least on the team page.  Make it
> easy for everybody to see what is going on with the
> membership/leadership of ComRel.  There is no need for the annual lead
> election to be secret.

If you mean the ballots should be public, I disagree. Even though we've 
been voting through email for the past years, I don't think everyone 
outside of ComRel needs to be aware of the voting done by each ComRel 
member.
If you mean that the result of an election should be public, I agree. 
That's what we've been doing for a few years. I don't recall if this 
year's election of Alec (antarus) was published or not - it happened in 
the middle of a very intense period (for me).
About new membership, Markos did send emails to the mls asking for new 
members and did announce who joined the team. The membership list is also 
part of the project page.

> 2.  Announced and open regular meetings.  Meetings could have an open
> and a closed component if actual cases are to be discussed.  Things
> like policy can be discussed in the open.  I don't know how meetings
> are held now, but the closed part can happen wherever things happen
> today, and the open part could be in #gentoo-meetings or such with
> published logs.  Maybe you meet for 30 minutes in the open and then 30
> minutes closed.  Or maybe every other meeting is open.  Figure out
> what works for the team, but with the goal of giving the community
> more insight and influence over anything which isn't personal.   The
> Trustees routinely deal with closed bugs that contain personal or
> financial details we don't want on the Internet, but any actual
> decisions are in the open.  So, everybody can see that we're spending
> $500 on some server, without seeing scans of checks and credit card
> numbers.

ComRel is composed of several teams that don't have exactly a regular 
"schedule". You can only recruit if there's someone to recruit and if 
there is, when you and the recruit have time for it. We don't meet every 
Tuesday to go over logs from IRC or mls and see if anyone needs to be 
"pusnished". One of the few teams that has a somewhat regular activity is
Undertakers as they get emails every 15 days with a summary of developers 
activity.
In any case, I believe you're talking about "Conflict Resolution". That 
work is done on a "need to" basis. While following activity in the 
community we may decide to act (publicly or privately) if we find someone 
is going "off-stray" or getting into trouble. However, most of the public 
work is done when the community complaints about certain actions / 
behaviour by individual members.
This work is usually started by a single member of ComRel that will 
privately contact the other members letting them know he's working on that 
case or by a group of members meeting online and deciding who will deal 
with the case. If things escalate, more members may get involved and if 
there's a need, we get a voting by the team about possible sanctions.
None of the above has a regular schedule that could be done on scheduled 
meetings and I believe most of it is not appropriate for public view. The 
team itself has frequent "improptu" meetings in which members gather and 
we may talk about specific on-going cases or about "alarming signs".
I agree with you that changes to policies should be discussed in the mls. 
We did that a few years ago. We definitely need to publish the resulting 
policy so everyone is aware of it.

> 3.  This is a bigger change, but I'd advocate doing with ComRel what
> was done last year with QA.  Have the team self-governing for the most
> part, but with the Council having to confirm the lead and basically
> having the effective ability to take over if necessary.  I'd highly
> discourage the Council ever doing that, but I'd look at it a bit like
> being able to Impeach or Recall an elected official - just a way to
> have accountability and the mandate that goes along with that.

I strongly object to this idea, just like I did with QA.
The goal / purpose of ComRel is not to be "cozy" team that everyone feels 
great with. To have an effective ComRel team, it needs to be made of 
people with certain traits (level headed, fair, independent, trustworthy) 
that do their work with the best interest of Gentoo "at heart". That's why 
it can't be a "open to everyone" team.
Besides, the council can always revert ComRel decisions and it always had 
the power to deal with a "rotten" ComRel or ComRel lead.

> All of that goes far beyond whether there is overlap in Council/team membership.
>
> QA has basically been doing all three of these and I think it has been
> a good change.  Sure, not everybody agrees with everything the new
> team has been doing, but the fact is that at least everybody knows
> what is going on, who is in charge, and how they got to be in charge.
> I think those are steps in the right direction.

Even though I agree that there's a more visible QA team now, I don't 
necessarily agree that we're better now. I hope and expect the new team 
will get better with time, but they've been dragged into many and noisy 
conflicts, which have even lead to complaints to ComRel.
Your setting of a precedent also worries me as a way for any particular 
new council to decide it's time to replace QA, just because the 2013/2014 
council did it.

> Rich

Jorge

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2014, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> 1.  Announced elections, membership changes, etc.  When these things
>> happen, publish it on -project, or at least on the team page.  Make it
>> easy for everybody to see what is going on with the
>> membership/leadership of ComRel.  There is no need for the annual lead
>> election to be secret.
>
>
> If you mean the ballots should be public, I disagree...
> If you mean that the result of an election should be public, I agree.

We're on the same page here.

> I agree with you that changes to policies should be discussed in the mls. We
> did that a few years ago. We definitely need to publish the resulting policy
> so everyone is aware of it.

Again, we're actually on the same page here.  I wasn't suggesting a
free-for-all with conflict resolution.

>
>> 3.  This is a bigger change, but I'd advocate doing with ComRel what
>> was done last year with QA.  Have the team self-governing for the most
>> part, but with the Council having to confirm the lead and basically
>> having the effective ability to take over if necessary.  I'd highly
>> discourage the Council ever doing that, but I'd look at it a bit like
>> being able to Impeach or Recall an elected official - just a way to
>> have accountability and the mandate that goes along with that.
>
>
> I strongly object to this idea, just like I did with QA.
> The goal / purpose of ComRel is not to be "cozy" team that everyone feels
> great with. To have an effective ComRel team, it needs to be made of people
> with certain traits (level headed, fair, independent, trustworthy) that do
> their work with the best interest of Gentoo "at heart". That's why it can't
> be a "open to everyone" team.
> Besides, the council can always revert ComRel decisions and it always had
> the power to deal with a "rotten" ComRel or ComRel lead.

I'm not actually sure we're disagreeing here.  This isn't about the
Council picking the members of QA or ComRel.  This is about having
both teams govern themselves, but submitting their choice of leads to
the Council to be blessed.  I just view it as a way of "legitimizing"
the teams, and making the elected Council members accountable for
their actions.

I was not proposing having open elections for these teams, or open
membership as with most Gentoo teams.

>
> Even though I agree that there's a more visible QA team now, I don't
> necessarily agree that we're better now. I hope and expect the new team will
> get better with time, but they've been dragged into many and noisy
> conflicts, which have even lead to complaints to ComRel.

So, I can't say that I've agreed with how every issue has been
handled, but it is a new team and I believe that creffet has been
working hard to try to get the team to find the right balance between
inactivity and overactivity.  Of course a QA team that actually does
things will trigger more ComRel complaints than one that does nothing
- that's just the nature of the beast.  The last month or two seems to
have been fairly quiet judging from the lists and Council agendas.

> Your setting of a precedent also worries me as a way for any particular new
> council to decide it's time to replace QA, just because the 2013/2014
> council did it.

The Council didn't replace QA, it populated it.  There basically
weren't any active members in QA when we did it.  The GLEP clearly
outlines how this year's Council agreed to do it in the future (not
that future Councils couldn't change this).  The QA lead basically
holds the final say over what QA does, as is the structure of all of
our projects in theory.  In practice they shouldn't be ruling with an
iron hand.  QA chooses its own members, and they elect the lead.  The
lead then has to be confirmed by the Council, and I would generally
expect that to be a rubber stamp most of the time.  However, if there
is an issue that is an opportunity for reform.

But, if for whatever reason things really got out of hand, then
Council absolutely should clean house if that is what they feel is the
best option.  What is the alternative?  We can't have a Gentoo with
half a dozen self-governing fiefdoms all doing whatever they feel is
best regardless of what the overall developer community thinks.

I'm not an advocate of the Council stepping on teams like
QA/ComRel/Infra, but these are special teams that I believe require
some kind of mandate.  If your team isn't going to let any developer
join, even if for good reason, then there needs to be some kind of
accountability to the rest of the community.  Otherwise people start
complaining about cliques/etc.

So, I'm an advocate of the Council being the buck-stops-here team, and
if developers have a problem with our performance, they get the
opportunity to get rid of us.  Then all the grievances get aired, and
we can all look at the results of an election and agree that they are
fair.  Sure, we'll still have our differences, but at least we can say
that the majority of devs are happy with what is going on.

But, accountability of ComRel is something for the next Council to
decide on.  I've been clear on my views - I want QA/ComRel/Infra to be
subordinate to the Council, but self-governing in the day-to-day.  I
don't have strong feelings on whether ComRel/Infra are subordinate to
the Council vs the Trustees - I think that they should be under one or
the other but it could go either way.  I also have stated before that
I think that QA >> ComRel > Infra as far as priority of reform goes as
well - QA was dysfunctional last fall and needed immediate action,
ComRel and especially Infra are less broken and thus we shouldn't be
in as much of a rush to "fix" them.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> ComRel and especially Infra are less broken and thus we shouldn't be
> in as much of a rush to "fix" them.

So, comrel and infra are less broken than QA, but they are broken. And
it's not in so much of a rush but they need to be fixed. I take it
you're going to join those two teams and help then. Judging by the
copious amount and length of your emails on our lists, it looks like
you have a lot of time on your hands. It's totally understandable
that, council being what it is, you're in need for more action.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Seemant Kulleen]

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Hi Denis,

I'm sorry to speak publicly, but isn't this email exactly the kind of
attitude we're trying to reverse. As a senior member of the project, I
really would hope you set a better example of the change that you,
yourself, have said you wanted to see.


That is, unless I've completely mis-read this email, I think Rich deserves
a little more charitable of a reply.

Thanks,

Seemant



On 4 July 2014 11:38, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > ComRel and especially Infra are less broken and thus we shouldn't be
> > in as much of a rush to "fix" them.
>
> So, comrel and infra are less broken than QA, but they are broken. And
> it's not in so much of a rush but they need to be fixed. I take it
> you're going to join those two teams and help then. Judging by the
> copious amount and length of your emails on our lists, it looks like
> you have a lot of time on your hands. It's totally understandable
> that, council being what it is, you're in need for more action.
>
> Denis.
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry to speak publicly, but isn't this email exactly the kind of
> attitude we're trying to reverse. As a senior member of the project, I
> really would hope you set a better example of the change that you, yourself,
> have said you wanted to see.

You are perfectly right to speak publicly. The point I was trying to
make in this email is very simple. The only good way of changing how a
team operates, for better or worse, is to join it. Ordering people
around without actually doing anything only works if you're the one
signing the paychecks.

Have we reached a point where council members are such divas that they
can't even be told when they missed a perfectly good opportunity to
shut up?

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Freitag, 4. Juli 2014, 21:06:05 schrieb Denis Dupeyron:

> The point I was trying to
> make in this email is very simple. The only good way of changing how a
> team operates, for better or worse, is to join it. 

Speaking out within the team seems not to help.

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Seemant Kulleen]

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Hi Denis,

You're obviously frustrated (and you might even be giving voice to more
than just your own feeling, here).

I didn't read Rich's replies as ordering anyone around.  In fact, I dare
say Rich is very consistent at suggesting and discussing, but I have yet to
witness him order someone around on this list.

I have had no personal interaction with him (ever), but he doesn't seem
like an order-around kinda guy here.

Having said all of that, there's a LOT of baggage around Gentoo's
leadership. You (Denis) know from our private conversations that that
baggage started around 2002/3 and that I've been carrying a lot of
emotional baggage as well.

But this is 2014. This is now, this is a time that we can shed baggage,
because it serves no other purpose than to weigh us down. There's nobody
left to blame.

I ask, as user, that you please take a more charitable approach to everyone
on the team with the simple understanding that everyone in their own way
just wants to improve Gentoo.

Thanks again,

Seemant



On 4 July 2014 12:06, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I'm sorry to speak publicly, but isn't this email exactly the kind of
> > attitude we're trying to reverse. As a senior member of the project, I
> > really would hope you set a better example of the change that you,
> yourself,
> > have said you wanted to see.
>
> You are perfectly right to speak publicly. The point I was trying to
> make in this email is very simple. The only good way of changing how a
> team operates, for better or worse, is to join it. Ordering people
> around without actually doing anything only works if you're the one
> signing the paychecks.
>
> Have we reached a point where council members are such divas that they
> can't even be told when they missed a perfectly good opportunity to
> shut up?
>
> Denis.
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Seemant Kulleen]

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Denis,

I also want to make the point that I'm not forgetting your own recent pain
with respect to Gentoo and the way some things are run.  I urge you to
please keep in mind that the only way to change it is to not lash out
because of the pain (lashing out usually has the unfortunate side-effect
that people who had nothing to do with causing you anger still get hurt by
your reaction to them), but to accept it and work on healing it instead.

Healing the pain is a lot more vulnerable, but it's also more honest, and I
believe it can be done.  I've seen it happen.  Within Gentoo.  With people
who thought they were enemies.  Within the last 6 months (right, you
two?).  Maybe 7 (I was in Zambia at the time).

Thanks,

Seemant



On 4 July 2014 12:15, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Denis,
>
> You're obviously frustrated (and you might even be giving voice to more
> than just your own feeling, here).
>
> I didn't read Rich's replies as ordering anyone around.  In fact, I dare
> say Rich is very consistent at suggesting and discussing, but I have yet to
> witness him order someone around on this list.
>
> I have had no personal interaction with him (ever), but he doesn't seem
> like an order-around kinda guy here.
>
> Having said all of that, there's a LOT of baggage around Gentoo's
> leadership. You (Denis) know from our private conversations that that
> baggage started around 2002/3 and that I've been carrying a lot of
> emotional baggage as well.
>
> But this is 2014. This is now, this is a time that we can shed baggage,
> because it serves no other purpose than to weigh us down. There's nobody
> left to blame.
>
> I ask, as user, that you please take a more charitable approach to
> everyone on the team with the simple understanding that everyone in their
> own way just wants to improve Gentoo.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Seemant
>
>
>
> On 4 July 2014 12:06, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I'm sorry to speak publicly, but isn't this email exactly the kind of
>> > attitude we're trying to reverse. As a senior member of the project, I
>> > really would hope you set a better example of the change that you,
>> yourself,
>> > have said you wanted to see.
>>
>> You are perfectly right to speak publicly. The point I was trying to
>> make in this email is very simple. The only good way of changing how a
>> team operates, for better or worse, is to join it. Ordering people
>> around without actually doing anything only works if you're the one
>> signing the paychecks.
>>
>> Have we reached a point where council members are such divas that they
>> can't even be told when they missed a perfectly good opportunity to
>> shut up?
>>
>> Denis.
>>
>>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're obviously frustrated (and you might even be giving voice to more than
> just your own feeling, here).

I think you're trying to read a little too far into that short message
I wrote. I did not send it out of frustration or anger. It's not my
habit to write public messages on a whim. As is usual with me, it took
me a very long time to craft it exactly like I wanted, about one hour
and a half in that case. And I meant exactly what I wrote, no less,
but also no more.

I said that because it had to be said (and is actually being said in
smaller circles). I do not accept that anybody's position protects
them from that or anything else. There is no place for royalty in
Gentoo.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:50:12 -0600
Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Seemant Kulleen <seemantk@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > You're obviously frustrated (and you might even be giving voice to
> > more than just your own feeling, here).
> 
> I think you're trying to read a little too far into that short message
> I wrote. I did not send it out of frustration or anger. It's not my
> habit to write public messages on a whim. As is usual with me, it took
> me a very long time to craft it exactly like I wanted, about one hour
> and a half in that case. And I meant exactly what I wrote, no less,
> but also no more.
> 
> I said that because it had to be said (and is actually being said in
> smaller circles). I do not accept that anybody's position protects
> them from that or anything else. There is no place for royalty in
> Gentoo.

There is place for communication in Gentoo.

Communication takes time to master, to get the actual message across;
paragraphs without "I ..." constructs and hidden messages are effective.

Communication takes thought about how text is read by the receiver;
similarly, doing something is more effective than commanding something.

Communication takes the reader to AGF[1], ATPOABB[2], ...; messages are
rarely perfect, often they are interpreted in a different way[3]. 

Communication takes 2 sides; what you [positive] and [negative], tell
people more about what you [positive] to focus on what needs focus.

Consider that you can swap "communication" with "transparency"... :)

So; what are rich0, calchan, ... communicating about here and why?

The very first words are about "making ComRel more transparant";
thinking that through, it takes effort for an outsider to join a
team seeming to be solid where transparency is met with disagreement.

 [1]:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

 [2]:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ben/Assume_the_presence_of_a_belly-button

 [3]:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_the_assumption_of_good_faith

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2014 03:36:49 +0200
Tom Wijsman <TomWij@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:50:12 -0600
> Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:

[...]

> Communication takes time to master, to get the actual message across;
> paragraphs without "I ..." constructs and hidden messages are
> effective.

I simply cannot believe you set out to explain that to Denis of all
people. :)

The rest of your lecture on communication was ironically lost on me. I
had to re-translate back and forth between Dutch and English frequently
to find what might have been messages lost in the noise. I gave up.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

Look, this sniping isn't doing anybody any good.  If somebody wants to
take me aside and offer helpful advice, just ping me on IRC or
something.

I mean, we have a member of Council and a member of ComRel getting
annoyed with each other over what started as the topic of conflicts of
interests in cases that come before Council and ComRel.  Is the goal
to test what happens when both ComRel and Council members have to
recuse themselves on the same case?  :)

(And, to be clear, my last paragraph is purely intended to point out
the irony of the situation.  I would prefer to just work out issues
1:1 vs on the lists, but this isn't exactly keeping me up at night...)

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Sat, 5 Jul 2014 16:30:30 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I simply cannot believe you set out to explain that to Denis of all
> people. :)
>
> The rest of your lecture on communication was ironically lost on me. I
> had to re-translate back and forth between Dutch and English
> frequently to find what might have been messages lost in the noise. I
> gave up.

That's the entire point about it, their message is lost in the noise.

Given that I don't have a message; you won't find one, as it is rather
a question as is denoted by the question mark at the end of a sentence.
You're trying to read a little too far into that short question I wrote.

So, to clear up a language barrier: "Waarover schrijven en wrijven ze?"

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2014.07.04 20:15, Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> Hi Denis,
> 
[snip]
> 
> Having said all of that, there's a LOT of baggage around Gentoo's
> leadership. You (Denis) know from our private conversations that that
> baggage started around 2002/3 and that I've been carrying a lot of
> emotional baggage as well.
> 
> But this is 2014. This is now, this is a time that we can shed
> baggage,
> because it serves no other purpose than to weigh us down. There's
> nobody
> left to blame.
> 

[snip]
> 
> Seemant
> 
> 


Seemant,

... but Gentoo has had no leadership since the council was formed ... 
or even since drobbins left the first time.

The council is a technical disputes resolution body, that infers that 
its forbidden to lead, since setting a direction (leadership) falls way 
outside the councils terms of reference.

Probably just as well, since you can't lead by committee. You just get 
a mess like the EU.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:51:38 +0100
Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Probably just as well, since you can't lead by committee. You just
> get a mess like the EU.

You mean to say Debian? :)


     jer

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> ... but Gentoo has had no leadership since the council was formed ...
> or even since drobbins left the first time.

I think you're confusing leadership with titles here.  You can have an
official project leader who doesn't do any leading, and you can have
people doing leading without any title at all.

I would not say that Gentoo has been entirely bereft of leadership.
Look at where we are vs where we were in 2003.  Do we really think
that we'd have deployed PMS and migrated to newer EAPIs without SOME
kind of leadership?

Many individual leaders promoting small projects that collectively
improve the distro is still leadership.

>
> The council is a technical disputes resolution body, that infers that
> its forbidden to lead, since setting a direction (leadership) falls way
> outside the councils terms of reference.

Frankly, I think we can do better than that.  Sure, if nothing else
the Council can be a place to get a final vote on a dispute, but I
think that Council members ought to be trying to influence the
day-to-day direction of the distro.  That isn't limited to
participating in email threads - their influence can be behind the
scenes, from taking the lead on projects, etc.  When there is a
problem, step up and contribute!

>
> Probably just as well, since you can't lead by committee. You just get
> a mess like the EU.

What you can't do is call passing resolutions leadership.  As a
committee the Council votes on resolutions that we all agree to
follow.  That is a necessary function of the Council, but it isn't
really leadership.  Council members can and should lead in other ways.

And lots of people take on leadership roles in Gentoo without having
any title at all.  Most FOSS projects are meritocracies, and we're no
different.  When people see something good, they follow it.

You can't have a leader by appointing a leader.  At best you can
assign a title to somebody who has already been doing the job.
Putting a mantle on somebody who hasn't already been a leader just
tends to lead to a lot of conflict.

That is one of the things that works well with our project system.
Devs self-assemble into small teams based on interest and they choose
their own leaders.  Generally the job of the Council as a committee is
to stay out of their way, unless they're bumping into each other.
Leadership in an organization like ours usually doesn't consist of
issuing orders...

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2014.07.06 13:31, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > ... but Gentoo has had no leadership since the council was formed
> ...
> > or even since drobbins left the first time.
> 
> I think you're confusing leadership with titles here.  You can have 
> an
> official project leader who doesn't do any leading, and you can have
> people doing leading without any title at all.
> 
> I would not say that Gentoo has been entirely bereft of leadership.
> Look at where we are vs where we were in 2003.  Do we really think
> that we'd have deployed PMS and migrated to newer EAPIs without SOME
> kind of leadership?
> 
> Many individual leaders promoting small projects that collectively
> improve the distro is still leadership.
> 
> >
> > The council is a technical disputes resolution body, that infers
> that
> > its forbidden to lead, since setting a direction (leadership) falls
> way
> > outside the councils terms of reference.
> 
> Frankly, I think we can do better than that.  Sure, if nothing else
> the Council can be a place to get a final vote on a dispute, but I
> think that Council members ought to be trying to influence the
> day-to-day direction of the distro.  That isn't limited to
> participating in email threads - their influence can be behind the
> scenes, from taking the lead on projects, etc.  When there is a
> problem, step up and contribute!
> 
> >
> > Probably just as well, since you can't lead by committee. You just
> get
> > a mess like the EU.
> 
> What you can't do is call passing resolutions leadership.  As a
> committee the Council votes on resolutions that we all agree to
> follow.  That is a necessary function of the Council, but it isn't
> really leadership.  Council members can and should lead in other 
> ways.
> 
> And lots of people take on leadership roles in Gentoo without having
> any title at all.  Most FOSS projects are meritocracies, and we're no
> different.  When people see something good, they follow it.
> 
> You can't have a leader by appointing a leader.  At best you can
> assign a title to somebody who has already been doing the job.
> Putting a mantle on somebody who hasn't already been a leader just
> tends to lead to a lot of conflict.
> 
> That is one of the things that works well with our project system.
> Devs self-assemble into small teams based on interest and they choose
> their own leaders.  Generally the job of the Council as a committee 
> is
> to stay out of their way, unless they're bumping into each other.
> Leadership in an organization like ours usually doesn't consist of
> issuing orders...
> 
> Rich
> 
> 

Rich,

I think we really agree. There has been lots of local leadership to 
get things done by the people involved but no 'Gentoo the distro' level 
leadership since drobbins left, as there was no longer any BDFL.

Even drobbins only took an interest in some things, there was just too 
much to do. The rest was left to the Top Level Project leads, which 
gave way to the council when the TLP leads wasn't working any more.

Its another question if the loss of 'Gentoo the distro' level 
leadership matters as Gentoo has always been a loose collection of 
projects anyway. 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
> You are perfectly right to speak publicly. The point I was trying to
> make in this email is very simple. The only good way of changing how a
> team operates, for better or worse, is to join it. Ordering people
> around without actually doing anything only works if you're the one
> signing the paychecks.

Nobody is issuing orders here.  I only advocate for ComRel and Infra
what I advocate for QA, and I've yet to hear anybody in QA complain
about being ordered around by the Council, or anybody on it.  When
things get stirred up I sometimes check in with them, and it is more
out of interest and care and a desire to help/support than any desire
to boss anybody around.

In my post I stated, "Please note that I'm not suggesting that anybody
is really trying to keep secrets here - it is just easier to have a
discussion and not write up minutes than it is to announce things on
lists, and so things probably happen that way."  The reason that I did
this was that I wanted to express my concerns with the structural
organization of Gentoo, and not the actual performance of the teams.
QA was an easy fix because it had basically gone inactive.  I think
that the design of ComRel and Infra is prone to problems, but that
doesn't mean that anything they do is guaranteed to fail.  Bad
algorithms can achieve good results, especially if they're run on good
hardware, but that doesn't change the fact that under other
circumstances they can fail.

I'm certainly not the only one who has raised concerns with Gentoo's
meta-structure.  I believe one of our Trustee candidates also
expressed an interest in trying to change things.  In any case, I'm
running for Council, and I think people have the right to know where I
stand.  That doesn't mean that I don't intend to be sensitive to the
teams I'd potentially advocate interfering with, and I'd encourage
ComRel/Infra members to express their own opinions on the issue.

>
> Have we reached a point where council members are such divas that they
> can't even be told when they missed a perfectly good opportunity to
> shut up?

So, this really isn't helpful.  My intent was to discuss an issue that
I think is important.  By all means disagree with me, even vigorously.
However, I don't believe I've done anything to earn personal criticism
in this thread.  At no point did I tell anybody to withhold criticism
of my ideas, or even of myself.  However, I also don't think that your
email really set the kind of tone that I, at least, like seeing on the
lists.

Nobody should be ashamed to speak up if they disagree with an idea,
and they should be even less ashamed to speak up if they have an idea.
Maybe making ComRel subordinate to the Council is a stupid idea,
certain to doom Gentoo.  I think it is more helpful to focus on the
idea/argument.  Or, just don't vote for me if you prefer.  Or heck,
just ping me and feel free to converse by email/IRC/etc.

Honestly, I was torn between just letting this thread die without a
response, or posting this.  I post this mainly out of the concern that
perhaps my original post communicated some kind of disagreement with
the work being done in ComRel and Infra.  That really was not my
intent at all - I just think that our meta-structure can be improved.
I know that is frustrating for any team to be criticized when the're
composed of volunteers that are in all likelihood conscientiously just
trying to do the best job that they can.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Denis Dupeyron:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> ComRel and especially Infra are less broken and thus we shouldn't be
>> in as much of a rush to "fix" them.
> 
> So, comrel and infra are less broken than QA, but they are broken. And
> it's not in so much of a rush but they need to be fixed. I take it
> you're going to join those two teams and help then. Judging by the
> copious amount and length of your emails on our lists, it looks like
> you have a lot of time on your hands. It's totally understandable
> that, council being what it is, you're in need for more action.
> 
> Denis.
> 

I'm not sure if you are aware that rich0 is one of the very few active
council members.

Active in the sense that he actually gets involved (both publicly and
privately), not only in technical discussions, but also in delicate
problems in the past where ComRel itself wasn't properly organized and
most people tried to avoid a very heated discussion.
It almost seems rich0 has taken over some of the "moderation" work which
maybe should be ComRel work instead, but currently isn't. So... IMO,
your point misses reality in more than one way.

Actually, I'd have to look at the project page in order to know who is
on the council right now, because most don't get involved and I only
have ~2 names in mind.

Also, the gentoo habit of not responding is very common. I hope we don't
get more of that in the council, but people who are active, involved and
have more to offer than just the oldtimer-badge.

But I don't want to look like a campaign manager here. I just think you
hit the wrong spot.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 07/05/14 13:53, hasufell wrote:
> Denis Dupeyron:
>> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> ComRel and especially Infra are less broken and thus we shouldn't be
>>> in as much of a rush to "fix" them.
>>
>> So, comrel and infra are less broken than QA, but they are broken. And
>> it's not in so much of a rush but they need to be fixed. I take it
>> you're going to join those two teams and help then. Judging by the
>> copious amount and length of your emails on our lists, it looks like
>> you have a lot of time on your hands. It's totally understandable
>> that, council being what it is, you're in need for more action.
>>
>> Denis.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if you are aware that rich0 is one of the very few active
> council members.

That is not fair.  My sense of the council this year is that we worked 
very well together and got stuff done.  Also, we were evenly handed with 
situations that came forward and squashed some of the fires regarding QA 
and ComRel last year.

>
> Active in the sense that he actually gets involved (both publicly and
> privately), not only in technical discussions, but also in delicate
> problems in the past where ComRel itself wasn't properly organized and
> most people tried to avoid a very heated discussion.
> It almost seems rich0 has taken over some of the "moderation" work which
> maybe should be ComRel work instead, but currently isn't. So... IMO,
> your point misses reality in more than one way.
>
> Actually, I'd have to look at the project page in order to know who is
> on the council right now, because most don't get involved and I only
> have ~2 names in mind.
>
> Also, the gentoo habit of not responding is very common. I hope we don't
> get more of that in the council, but people who are active, involved and
> have more to offer than just the oldtimer-badge.

Please distinguish between not responding when a message is aimed at you 
(eg. a bug report on your package) and not joining in long threaded 
discussions.  I tend to avoid the latter but not a request aimed at me 
or any team I'm on.  I don't know of any situation where the council has 
not responded to a request.

>
> But I don't want to look like a campaign manager here. I just think you
> hit the wrong spot.
>


-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

Anthony G. Basile:
> On 07/05/14 13:53, hasufell wrote:
>> Denis Dupeyron:
>>> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> ComRel and especially Infra are less broken and thus we shouldn't be
>>>> in as much of a rush to "fix" them.
>>>
>>> So, comrel and infra are less broken than QA, but they are broken. And
>>> it's not in so much of a rush but they need to be fixed. I take it
>>> you're going to join those two teams and help then. Judging by the
>>> copious amount and length of your emails on our lists, it looks like
>>> you have a lot of time on your hands. It's totally understandable
>>> that, council being what it is, you're in need for more action.
>>>
>>> Denis.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if you are aware that rich0 is one of the very few active
>> council members.
> 
> That is not fair.  My sense of the council this year is that we worked
> very well together and got stuff done.  Also, we were evenly handed with
> situations that came forward and squashed some of the fires regarding QA
> and ComRel last year.
> 

See the next sentence which explains what I mean with "active".

>>
>> Active in the sense that he actually gets involved (both publicly and
>> privately), not only in technical discussions, but also in delicate
>> problems in the past where ComRel itself wasn't properly organized and
>> most people tried to avoid a very heated discussion.
>> It almost seems rich0 has taken over some of the "moderation" work which
>> maybe should be ComRel work instead, but currently isn't. So... IMO,
>> your point misses reality in more than one way.
>>


> 
> I don't know of any situation where the council has
> not responded to a request.
> 

Me neither.

I'm not sure what you did misunderstand here. I defined what I meant
with active and there are not many council members who are active in
that sense. That's a fact.
And my opinion is that this needs improvement, which is why I disagree
with Denis, strongly.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[hasufell]

To make my point more clear:
The concept of only voting like an untouchable high council which you
need to address very formally doesn't work out (I am exaggerating).

We need more moderation and preventive mediation. Even ComRel does not
get this done yet. They also seem to have a self-concept of staying in
the background until stuff explodes or until someone calls very loud for
them.

Maybe I need a reality check, but I don't see that this has worked out well.

One of the bigger disagreements I see in the past is that the council
didn't intervene when we had the multilib war. It was _technically_ all
fine what had been done, but it was still a bad situation. But no one
addressed the council directly (some people didn't want to go for a
formal vote), so not much happened on that level.

I don't think it's enough to only get involved if someone goes for a
formal council agenda item. Maybe that's exactly what the GLEP says, but
it's not enough to improve the anarchy here.

So... I'm glad about any person that tries to improve that part of the
council and wants to extend the self-concept of the council, even if
it's not within the official scope.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 9:41 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> So... I'm glad about any person that tries to improve that part of the
> council and wants to extend the self-concept of the council, even if
> it's not within the official scope.
>

I'd like to give some credit to dilfridge here.  He did push to get a
"bikeshed of the month" going.  I think we had a few long agendas this
year which led to us not doing it as much as originally intended, but
it is a good concept.  Ulm was instrumental in making a push to get
some pre-approval on EAPI6 on the agenda last month (normally the
Council doesn't approve PMS until after implementation, but having
guidance was helpful).  There have also been some good threads in
recent months making a push on nice ideas that never got wrapped up,
many from outside the Council.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 01:41:27 +0000
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:

> To make my point more clear:
> The concept of only voting like an untouchable high council which you
> need to address very formally doesn't work out (I am exaggerating).

If you want to make it clear, please point out why it doesn't work out.

> We need more moderation and preventive mediation. Even ComRel does not
> get this done yet. They also seem to have a self-concept of staying in
> the background until stuff explodes or until someone calls very loud
> for them.
>
> Maybe I need a reality check, but I don't see that this has worked
> out well.

Moderation is human exception handling; given that this is about
exceptions, this handling ideally occurs as little as possible.

On the other end of the spectrum you have something like the police;
proctors, something in between, has been tried but didn't succeed.

> One of the bigger disagreements I see in the past is that the council
> didn't intervene when we had the multilib war. It was _technically_
> all fine what had been done, but it was still a bad situation. But no
> one addressed the council directly (some people didn't want to go for
> a formal vote), so not much happened on that level.
>
> I don't think it's enough to only get involved if someone goes for a
> formal council agenda item. Maybe that's exactly what the GLEP says,
> but it's not enough to improve the anarchy here.

That's because at that point in time nobody felt the exceptional need
for contacting the Council; as they didn't deem it to be an exception at
that point, as this "war" can also be interpreted as useful feedback.

After a few iterations; recent threads for the migration were made
without much disagreement, thus again there is no exceptional need.

There are some human exceptions that could lead to ComRel or Council
voting:

 1. Someone becomes tired of it, thus attempts to escalate it.

 2. Someone decides to revert the multilib migration without discussion.

 3. The multilib migration continues when a lot of disagreement starts.

A migration that nobody wants to halt doesn't need Council discussion;
similarly, in the earlier iterations it isn't needed as long as the
migration remains to be an idea that improves itself over time.

> So... I'm glad about any person that tries to improve that part of the
> council and wants to extend the self-concept of the council, even if
> it's not within the official scope.

There is an area outside the official scope, but I think it is limited.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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[gentoo-project] Re: Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Michael Palimaka]

On 06/17/2014 11:55 PM, Chris Reffett wrote:
> -kensington
Thanks, but I decline on this occasion.

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 9:55 AM, Chris Reffett <creffett@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I nominate (no particular order, all are technically nominated already but
> wanted to add my specific nominations anyway):
> -rich0

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I accept.

My manifesto can be found at:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~rich0/council-manifesto-2014.xml

I liked the questions-to-the-candidates thread last year, and I'll
update my manifesto if a similar thread emerges.  Otherwise, if you
really want to know what I'd be like on the Council, then you
shouldn't have trouble finding me making noise in the
logs/summaries/threads/etc.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Chris Reffett]

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On June 14, 2014 12:43:14 AM EDT, "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>Dear Gentoo Community,
>
>Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
>00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
>weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).
>
>All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If you
>were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your nomination on
>the same mailing list.
>
>Here are the rules:
>
>    * Council elections generally happen once a year
>    * The council is composed of seven elected members
>    * Nominations are allowed from June 14th 00H00 UTC to June 27th
>23H59 UTC
>    * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
>    * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
>    * Nominees must accept their nomination before voting begins
>    * Voting is opened from June 29th 00H00 UTC to July 12th 23H59 UTC
>      (there is one day of break between nominations and voting so the
>infra team has time to set up everything)
>    * Only Gentoo developers may vote
>    * The list of Gentoo Developers is based on active membership
>by June 13th, 2013 (the day before the election will be opened)
>    * Gentoo uses the Condorcet method of voting
>    * Results should be published around July 14th
>
>The page listing all nominations will be available at:
>http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406-nominees.xml
>(not available yet)
>
>If you don't know what the Gentoo Council is, you can read about it on
>the project page: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
>
>If you want to ask a question or share your thoughts, contact any of
>the election officials through the alias (elections@gentoo.org) or at
>IRC (Freenode #gentoo-elections).
>
>Officials:
>
>Chris Reffett (creffett)
>David Abbott (dabbott)
>Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto (jmbsvicetto)
>
>Infra Contact:
>Alec Warner (antarus)
>
>
>For the elections team,
>
>- --
>Regards,
>
>Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
>Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng

Less than 60 hours left to nominate/accept nominations, folks! The current list of who has accepted, declined, and not answered can be found at https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406-nominees.xml. As always, if you have any questions or concerns, email the team at elections@gentoo.org or ping us in #gentoo-elections.

On behalf of the elections team,
Chris Reffett
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2014.06.25 15:45, Chris Reffett wrote:
> 
> 
[snip]
> 
> Less than 60 hours left to nominate/accept nominations, folks! The
> current list of who has accepted, declined, and not answered can be
> found at https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/
> council-201406-nominees.xml.
> As always, if you have any questions or concerns, email the team at
> elections@gentoo.org or ping us in #gentoo-elections.
> 
> On behalf of the elections team,
> Chris Reffett
> 


Chris,

A few points on your link.
Everyone eligible to stand has been nominated.
Devrel don't exist any more.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Chris Reffett]

On June 25, 2014 12:06:08 PM EDT, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
>On 2014.06.25 15:45, Chris Reffett wrote:
>> 
>> 
>[snip]
>> 
>> Less than 60 hours left to nominate/accept nominations, folks! The
>> current list of who has accepted, declined, and not answered can be
>> found at https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/
>> council-201406-nominees.xml.
>> As always, if you have any questions or concerns, email the team at
>> elections@gentoo.org or ping us in #gentoo-elections.
>> 
>> On behalf of the elections team,
>> Chris Reffett
>> 
>
>
>Chris,
>
>A few points on your link.
>Everyone eligible to stand has been nominated.
>Devrel don't exist any more.

No argument on either point. I think that elections team informally decided to just list people who had been nominated by devs, or who have officially accepted/declined (for the sake of simplicity/not having an enormous page). Also no argument wrt devrel, we would have to change the xsl template for the elections page in order to properly call it comrel, but that could break old elections pages. We're working on it, hopefully I'll have time to come up with something in the next couple days.

Chris Reffett

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On 25.06.2014 19:41, Chris Reffett wrote:
>> Everyone eligible to stand has been nominated.
> I think that elections team informally decided to just list people
>  who had been nominated by devs,

So, the elections team didn't like the rules they operate by and decided
"informally" to change them?

> or who have officially accepted/declined (for the sake of 
> simplicity/not having an enormous page).

What about those nominated who don't actively read this list and rely
on the correctness of the elections page?

- -- 
Best regards, Wulf
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[David Abbott]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Wulf C. Krueger <wk@mailstation.de> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> On 25.06.2014 19:41, Chris Reffett wrote:
>>> Everyone eligible to stand has been nominated.
>> I think that elections team informally decided to just list people
>>  who had been nominated by devs,
>
> So, the elections team didn't like the rules they operate by and decided
> "informally" to change them?
>
>> or who have officially accepted/declined (for the sake of
>> simplicity/not having an enormous page).
>
> What about those nominated who don't actively read this list and rely
> on the correctness of the elections page?
Since everyone is nominated I removed that section, page now lists
people who either accept or decline.
>
> - --
> Best regards, Wulf
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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> =pNfN
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

Regards,
David

-- 
David Abbott (dabbott)
Gentoo Foundation Secretary
http://dev.gentoo.org/~dabbott/

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1

Hi Wulf.

> On 25.06.2014 19:41, Chris Reffett wrote:
>>> Everyone eligible to stand has been nominated.
>> I think that elections team informally decided to just list people
>>  who had been nominated by devs,
>
> So, the elections team didn't like the rules they operate by and decided
> "informally" to change them?

No, the team didn't change any rules.
I've been busy with some other stuff and so I haven't been as involved 
with this election as I've generally been. Unfortunately that meant more 
work for Chris and David. You also didn't help with your email.

>> or who have officially accepted/declined (for the sake of
>> simplicity/not having an enormous page).
>
> What about those nominated who don't actively read this list and rely
> on the correctness of the elections page?

I've now committed a new election page [1] that allows to address some of 
the issues reported and I'll be adding your entire list there.
I'm currently focusing on opening the election and getting that page 
corrected. When I have some time, I'll add everyone missing there.

  [1] - 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml

> - --
> Best regards, Wulf
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
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> SaoAnjp3+hTktup2hIYZ6igoGVTyTpKa
> =pNfN
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:


Dear Gentoo community,

with my personal apologies for the delay, the council election is now 
open. The election booth will remain open until 2014-07-15 00:00 UTC.
Due to some issues with the current council election page, I went ahead 
and reused the existing Trustees page model to create a new page[1].

  [1] - 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml

Please let us know if you find any issues with the page or with the 
election.

The rules for the Council election as well as details on how to vote for
this election are available in the Council Elections Archives[2]. In any
case, here is the quick procedure on how to vote using votify:

     * If you're eligible to vote in this election, log in to
dev.gentoo.org
     * Type votify --new council-201406 to create a new ballot file
     * Edit .ballot-council-201406 file in your home directory and rank
the candidates
     * Once you're finished, use votify --verify council-201406 command
to verify the validity of your ballot file
     * If everything is okay, use votify --submit council-201406 to
submit your vote. Don't forget your vote doesn't count until you
submit it.
     * If you run into problems, you can either work them out yourself
using votify --help or contact election officials and ask them for help

The elections for the Council include the pseudo _reopen_nominations
candidate. If the pseudo-candidate '_reopen_nominations' appears in
7th place or higher those candidates that rank above
'_reopen_nominations' will be the current council. A second period of
election will be opened for the remaining council seats. No third
period of election will be opened in the event '_repoen_nominations'
ranks higher than the candidates necessary to fill the council[3].

In case there's a need to fill a seat during the council term due to a
retirement, if no candidate ranked above the _reopen_nominations_ 
candidate, a new election must be held to fill that seat. If 
there were candidates ranked above the _reopen_nominations_ candidate, 
it's up to the remaining council members to accept the next candidate in 
order of voting or open an election to fill the open seat.

  [2] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/
  [3] -
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20090212-summary.txt

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dear Gentoo Community,
>
> Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
> 00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
> weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).
>
> All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If you
> were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your nomination on
> the same mailing list.
>
> Here are the rules:
>
>    * Council elections generally happen once a year
>    * The council is composed of seven elected members
>    * Nominations are allowed from June 14th 00H00 UTC to June 27th
> 23H59 UTC
>    * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
>    * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
>    * Nominees must accept their nomination before voting begins
>    * Voting is opened from June 29th 00H00 UTC to July 12th 23H59 UTC
>      (there is one day of break between nominations and voting so the
> infra team has time to set up everything)

Due to time availability issues, I had to delay this by 2 days.

>    * Only Gentoo developers may vote
>    * The list of Gentoo Developers is based on active membership
> by June 13th, 2013 (the day before the election will be opened)
>    * Gentoo uses the Condorcet method of voting
>    * Results should be published around July 14th
>
> The page listing all nominations will be available at:
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406-nominees.xml
> (not available yet)

Please use 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml 
instead.

> If you don't know what the Gentoo Council is, you can read about it on
> the project page: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
>
> If you want to ask a question or share your thoughts, contact any of
> the election officials through the alias (elections@gentoo.org) or at
> IRC (Freenode #gentoo-elections).
>
> Officials:
>
> Chris Reffett (creffett)
> David Abbott (dabbott)
> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto (jmbsvicetto)
>
> Infra Contact:
> Alec Warner (antarus)
Robin H. Johnson (robbat2)


Regards,
For the elections team.

> For the elections team,
>
> - --
> Regards,
>
> Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
> Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jauhien Piatlicki]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 701 bytes --]

Hi,

On 07/01/2014 07:15 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Gentoo community,
> 
> with my personal apologies for the delay, the council election is now
> open. The election booth will remain open until 2014-07-15 00:00 UTC.
> Due to some issues with the current council election page, I went ahead
> and reused the existing Trustees page model to create a new page[1].
> 
>  [1] -
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml

Could links to manifestos of those developers who are candidates be
placed somewhere on this page? Just to have a look at them.

Regards,
Jauhien



[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Tom Wijsman]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1455 bytes --]

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 19:02:26 +0200
Jauhien Piatlicki <jauhien@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 07/01/2014 07:15 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Gentoo community,
> > 
> > with my personal apologies for the delay, the council election is
> > now open. The election booth will remain open until 2014-07-15
> > 00:00 UTC. Due to some issues with the current council election
> > page, I went ahead and reused the existing Trustees page model to
> > create a new page[1].
> > 
> >  [1] -
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml
> 
> Could links to manifestos of those developers who are candidates be
> placed somewhere on this page? Just to have a look at them.

For reference, some manifestos of those developers:

blueness: http://dev.gentoo.org/~blueness/manifesto-2014.txt
dberkholz: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2715
radhermit: http://dev.gentoo.org/~radhermit/council-manifesto-2014.txt
rich0: http://dev.gentoo.org/~rich0/council-manifesto-2014.xml
TomWij: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/3817
williamh: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/3789

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Wed, 2 Jul 2014, Tom Wijsman wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 19:02:26 +0200
> Jauhien Piatlicki <jauhien@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> On 07/01/2014 07:15 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Gentoo community,
>>>
>>> with my personal apologies for the delay, the council election is
>>> now open. The election booth will remain open until 2014-07-15
>>> 00:00 UTC. Due to some issues with the current council election
>>> page, I went ahead and reused the existing Trustees page model to
>>> create a new page[1].
>>>
>>>  [1] -
>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml
>>
>> Could links to manifestos of those developers who are candidates be
>> placed somewhere on this page? Just to have a look at them.
>
> For reference, some manifestos of those developers:
>
> blueness: http://dev.gentoo.org/~blueness/manifesto-2014.txt
> dberkholz: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2715
> radhermit: http://dev.gentoo.org/~radhermit/council-manifesto-2014.txt
> rich0: http://dev.gentoo.org/~rich0/council-manifesto-2014.xml
> TomWij: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/3817
> williamh: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/3789

Thank you Tom for making my life easier by providig all these links in one 
email :-)
Regards,

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
For the elections team

[gentoo-project] Re: Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 election (< 36 hours left to vote)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2014, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:

Hi again.

> On Sat, 14 Jun 2014, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>
>
> Dear Gentoo community,
>
> with my personal apologies for the delay, the council election is now open. 
> The election booth will remain open until 2014-07-15 00:00 UTC.
> Due to some issues with the current council election page, I went ahead and 
> reused the existing Trustees page model to create a new page[1].

This means there is now less than 36 hours left to vote. If you haven't 
casted your vote yet (we have at the moment a 27% participation rate), 
please run to your election booth and be sure to cast your vote.
You can follow the instructions below and if you have any questions be 
sure to run "votify --help" or contact us. Don't forget to run "votify --verify 
council-201406" to make sure everything is ok with your ballot and "votify 
--submit council-201406" to submit your ballot. If you don't submit your 
ballot, your vote won't count. At the moment we have a few ballots that 
weren't submitted, so make sure you submitted your vote.

> [1] - 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml
>
> Please let us know if you find any issues with the page or with the election.
>
> The rules for the Council election as well as details on how to vote for
> this election are available in the Council Elections Archives[2]. In any
> case, here is the quick procedure on how to vote using votify:
>
>    * If you're eligible to vote in this election, log in to
> dev.gentoo.org
>     * Type votify --new council-201406 to create a new ballot file
>     * Edit .ballot-council-201406 file in your home directory and rank
> the candidates
>    * Once you're finished, use votify --verify council-201406 command
> to verify the validity of your ballot file
>    * If everything is okay, use votify --submit council-201406 to
> submit your vote. Don't forget your vote doesn't count until you
> submit it.
>    * If you run into problems, you can either work them out yourself
> using votify --help or contact election officials and ask them for help
>
> The elections for the Council include the pseudo _reopen_nominations
> candidate. If the pseudo-candidate '_reopen_nominations' appears in
> 7th place or higher those candidates that rank above
> '_reopen_nominations' will be the current council. A second period of
> election will be opened for the remaining council seats. No third
> period of election will be opened in the event '_repoen_nominations'
> ranks higher than the candidates necessary to fill the council[3].
>
> In case there's a need to fill a seat during the council term due to a
> retirement, if no candidate ranked above the _reopen_nominations_ candidate, 
> a new election must be held to fill that seat. If there were candidates 
> ranked above the _reopen_nominations_ candidate, it's up to the remaining 
> council members to accept the next candidate in order of voting or open an 
> election to fill the open seat.
>
>  [2] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/
>  [3] -
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20090212-summary.txt
>
>>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>  Hash: SHA1
>>
>>  Dear Gentoo Community,
>>
>>  Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2014 / 2015 have now started at
>>  00:00 UTC 2014/06/14 (Saturday) and will remain open for the next two
>>  weeks until 23:59 UTC, 2014/06/27 (Friday).
>>
>>  All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-project mailing list. If you
>>  were nominated and want to run, you have to accept your nomination on
>>  the same mailing list.
>>
>>  Here are the rules:
>>
>>     * Council elections generally happen once a year
>>     * The council is composed of seven elected members
>>     * Nominations are allowed from June 14th 00H00 UTC to June 27th
>>  23H59 UTC
>>     * Only Gentoo developers may be nominated
>>     * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
>>     * Nominees must accept their nomination before voting begins
>>     * Voting is opened from June 29th 00H00 UTC to July 12th 23H59 UTC
>>       (there is one day of break between nominations and voting so the
>>  infra team has time to set up everything)
>
> Due to time availability issues, I had to delay this by 2 days.
>
>>     * Only Gentoo developers may vote
>>     * The list of Gentoo Developers is based on active membership
>>  by June 13th, 2013 (the day before the election will be opened)
>>     * Gentoo uses the Condorcet method of voting
>>     * Results should be published around July 14th
>>
>>  The page listing all nominations will be available at:
>>  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406-nominees.xml
>>  (not available yet)
>
> Please use 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2014/council-201406.xml 
> instead.
>
>>  If you don't know what the Gentoo Council is, you can read about it on
>>  the project page: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
>>
>>  If you want to ask a question or share your thoughts, contact any of
>>  the election officials through the alias (elections@gentoo.org) or at
>>  IRC (Freenode #gentoo-elections).
>>
>>  Officials:
>>
>>  Chris Reffett (creffett)
>>  David Abbott (dabbott)
>>  Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto (jmbsvicetto)
>>
>>  Infra Contact:
>>  Alec Warner (antarus)
> Robin H. Johnson (robbat2)
>
>
> Regards,
> For the elections team.
>
>>  For the elections team,
>>
>>  - --
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
>>  Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
>>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>>
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>>  Vzk9On+kOWx6prtDLYsK
>>  =AUyI
>>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards,
For the elections team,

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Gentoo Developer