From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4781C138334 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 21:39:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FCD2E0894; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 21:39:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98CEEE0891 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 21:39:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.6.147] ([212.159.46.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.163]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M4K2r-1hBWcT1489-000I12 for ; Wed, 03 Apr 2019 23:39:20 +0200 Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] call for agenda items -- council meeting 2019-04-14 To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <20190401032055.GA9497@linux1.home> <4bbfc34f-335f-5521-310a-b66ffd0d9a9a@gentoo.org> <5e30d658-80c8-b608-1505-dc08db3625bf@gentoo.org> <20190403174315.32615d3b9574571e3ed4a399@gentoo.org> <20190403211251.af935f67d3cc0c2b4356a95b@gentoo.org> From: Michael Everitt Openpgp: id=BA266E0525CFAB101523351B4C30334F93C22371 Autocrypt: addr=m.j.everitt@iee.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190403211251.af935f67d3cc0c2b4356a95b@gentoo.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BuLveVPRa92sRMFNK38weLme7E5Yziabj" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0zUJTggbenNzWUvRA+Blz9AXj42k36cYto69CmjyuFhHmtHMvrI 0s44oD7/NMt76e3KbQg+x2jSRtOlo0TwO61gUZixMs6J6aFUNyM7RV5LMPayzlp9CKrtL5k HJmd3NLkZ0WsZqEtEUEcNzUBf2lseSeD8MPZI9VE3GC/3EpdCNfxuyc3ju16jlWVKmPkPcF O9bSABkUm5tLd5JbpSCkw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:9AMX4RbudmE=:pKI+5+BVAcxBETmAWasiZ8 CsKicC+Wxi5HtcdQAIXNt1sCX7+44v92S7gWVF/YINKYz7BhJFozB1dit3cNtFgcK1/vuMGbG NNyqv/8j8JkOMBeLY6kfiXAfO+8G7fowrYoUGzAiCSYXb2P7NhpkaU+XED7p/HYchNkyaq/Q7 EAF1U47AQEp7wlNDkypdbgUWIn+wW5oBr1sflyAcAyglYb6AbztQbLsJxMZxRZ8GiXEfOUbQZ /na08SzofURHkM9r4ZGTo440h7/1SI3FAbU8GmJKfvFhYm3EqAJYgvRrASJeuc/MkDmFiSfhv VYNgT1fCH3e3D5dK+0jt4ngnbmFBjwrppMjLqKIzpk+7UsOG2gRFmltJ9iWwK83CkYRzLLoy5 7UlK7nQX4uPEONNpaEEyq22IACJBqAENRyYn2za2KJc6I4lTjPALK7k0s9ykVMpBQuBx0Ej04 tDkJaG/DCWvQ65FCYGXuBMBchZVzzwd2wKZI5bT+kBFxuhLAFXPqKeib736hTPk1osDG4Hwgk e9ZdplwZxWqQhMQ3QBowzaNMDNV99+UbZqlIn9QtZHZyVKz/OhOfmD2CAjZZs1fgnF/EBKQVC QKKmWvbbYzHW4YcMW6e/yRrx1M3nXHEA+xVSDH/DItrE98EZJHap5twjWM3xJ270oSWGyVm+p yu7T7gaItyhUK5pfUPo4tevGi7ssz9pPmqUUA/hSLSrj2QHeoMEMMj4AsMN06ReHkVG07MmVo gFkKwEZSvIwmVcKUoFJflIEwTghhP4thhOc+CA== X-Archives-Salt: 537e0b68-1926-4886-8732-63270b9052b0 X-Archives-Hash: b5dcc01e2324ad4f67d2d1008d45b149 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --BuLveVPRa92sRMFNK38weLme7E5Yziabj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="hOrGJ2UaP1bsRADpu4itfzri9ApOdoC2A"; protected-headers="v1" From: Michael Everitt To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: <52d3147b-7898-87dc-2d00-842a35d0f3ab@iee.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] call for agenda items -- council meeting 2019-04-14 References: <20190401032055.GA9497@linux1.home> <4bbfc34f-335f-5521-310a-b66ffd0d9a9a@gentoo.org> <5e30d658-80c8-b608-1505-dc08db3625bf@gentoo.org> <20190403174315.32615d3b9574571e3ed4a399@gentoo.org> <20190403211251.af935f67d3cc0c2b4356a95b@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <20190403211251.af935f67d3cc0c2b4356a95b@gentoo.org> --hOrGJ2UaP1bsRADpu4itfzri9ApOdoC2A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-GB On 03/04/19 19:12, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 17:43:15 +0300 Andrew Savchenko wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 10:04:36 -0400 NP-Hardass wrote: >>> On 4/3/19 8:43 AM, Alec Warner wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:31 AM NP-Hardass >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> On 3/31/19 11:20 PM, William Hubbs wrote: >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > two weeks from today (2019-04-14) the Gentoo Council will meet= at >>>> > 19:00 UTC in the #gentoo-council channel on freenode. >>>> > >>>> > Please reply to this message with any items you would like us = to >>>> put on >>>> > the agenda to discuss or vote on. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks much, >>>> > >>>> > William >>>> > >>>> >>>> I'd like the council to discuss the issue and general trend of a= ctions >>>> (particularly recent) to restrict the ability of developers to >>>> contribute to Gentoo.=C2=A0 In my view, efforts are being made t= o make >>>> contributions as users substantially easier, while efforts are b= eing >>>> made to make being a developer substantially harder.=C2=A0 The m= onths of >>>> studying, quiz taking, and interviews set a bar that should make= >>>> contributions from those individuals that become developers easi= er than >>>> the average user, not more difficult. >>>> >>>> >>>> This is a pretty vague statement, are there particular things you wa= nt >>>> the council to review; or just the 'general trend'? >>>> I'm not aware of any recent changes to the developer onboarding proc= ess. >>>> >>>> -A >>>> =C2=A0 >>>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> NP-Hardass >>>> >>> Not just the onboarding, but the retention too. General trend is wha= t >>> I'm proposing should be discussed publicly during the meeting. >>> >>> Three points: >>> >>> At present time, everyone needs a "Real Name" to contribute. A user,= >>> with a new email address, can allege to be "Foo Bar" and contribute >>> without impediment, but, as recent proposals would have it, developer= s >>> would need to show proof of ID over video call to become part of the = web >>> of trust for committing. That effectively allows any user to remain >>> anonymous by using a false name, obviating a huge portion of the alle= ged >>> benefit to requiring names in the first place. So, developers can be >>> held to such a high standard that they can either no longer contribut= e, >>> while we trim eligible pool of new developers and compare that to the= >>> ease with which any "named" contributor on github or bugzilla can do = as >>> they please. >>> >>> We currently have a RFC, just posted two days ago, for developers to = be >>> regularly tested to maintain commit status. Again, if the developer >>> feels like it, maybe it is easier for him/her to just become a plain = old >>> user and submit patches, waiting on the (as I see it, dwindling,) amo= unt >>> of active other developers ready to commit instead. >> That RFC was issued on 1st April, so I assume it to be an ill joke. >> >>> Totally anecdotal, I've seen developers that have fairly decent QA on= >>> their own commits merge PRs from users without full review and >>> introducing a whole host of issues because code from users isn't alwa= ys >>> vetted as thoroughly as ones own work. So, I'd argue, the QA standar= ds >>> of being a dev don't quite apply to you as stringently once you >>> downgrade to being a user... >>> >>> At the end of the day, holding developers to higher standards than us= ers >>> is a given, but it shouldn't be more onerous to be a developer than t= o >>> be a user contributing. >> As you already noted, users also have to sign-off contributions with >> their real names, though we have no way to verify those names, as >> well as for developers actually. >> >> Will all due respect GLEP76 was prepared by people without much >> legal expertise and creates more problems than solves. The part of >> GLEP76 mandating real name signatures *must* be amended. >> >> Why? We have no way to verify that provided names are valid or that >> provided ID's are valid. At least in my jurisdiction such >> information collected can't be used for legal action or protection >> without following established government-assisted verification >> procedure. In other jurisdictions similar problems may and will >> arise. Additional problem is personal data collection, it is >> restricted or heavily regulated in many countries. One can't just >> demand to show an ID via electronic means without following >> complicated data protection procedures which are likely to be >> incompatible between jurisdictions. >> >> So the real name requirement gives us no real protection from >> possible cases, but creates real and serious problems by kicking >> active developers and contributors from further contributions. >> NP-Hardass is not the only one. I invited some gifted people with >> high quality out-of-tree work to become contributors or developers, >> but due to hostile attitude towards anonymous contributors they >> can't join. And people want to stay anonymous for good reasons, >> because they are engaged with privacy oriented development. >> >> We are loosing real people, real contributions and real community. >> What for? For solving imaginary problems with inappropriate tools. > Since the Council usually makes decisions on some specific proposals > and not on vague ideas, here is my proposal on this subject: keep real > name as a recommendation, not as a requirement. See a draft patch to > GLEP 76 below. It is not intended to be a final wording, but it > shows the idea. > > diff --git a/glep-0076.rst b/glep-0076.rst > index 9d5aa79..b16fae7 100644 > --- a/glep-0076.rst > +++ b/glep-0076.rst > @@ -137,8 +137,9 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding :: > Signed-off-by: Name > =20 > to the commit message as a separate line. The sign-off must contain > -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that > -would appear in a government issued document. > +either the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name > +that would appear in a government issued document or the pseudonym. > +Usage of the legal name is recommended. > =20 > The following is the current Gentoo Certificate of Origin, revision 1:= > =20 > @@ -242,10 +243,9 @@ to protect the Gentoo infrastructure owners and im= prove consistency. > =20 > The copyright model is built on the DCO model used by the Linux kernel= > and requires all contributors to certify the legitimacy of their > -contributions. This also requires that they use their real name for > -signing; an anonymous certification or one under a pseudonym would not= > -mean anything. This policy is derived from the Linux project's policy= > -[#SUBMITTING-PATCHES]_. > +contributions. This also requires that they use their real name > +(recommended) or a pseudonym for signing. This policy is derived from = the > +Linux project's policy [#SUBMITTING-PATCHES]_. > =20 > In the future, a second stage of this policy may use a combination of > the DCO model and an FLA model [#FLA]_ as it is used by different open= > > > Best regards, > Andrew Savchenko I would also note, that I know several people using pseudonyms whose real= identity I don't, and have no wish to, know; who have documents verifying= their right to use said pseudonym as their legal identity. Therefore if y= ou were insistent on pursuing copyright claims, you could equally use said identity to carry out such procedures. In reality, I don't see Gentoo pursuing any legal cases, nor having to address any copyright claims, as = I have certainly seen no requests to either the Council as governing body N= OR trustees as the legal entity representing Gentoo Linux. IANAL, but I certainly agree with the synopsis that the council is somewh= at obsessed with "... solving imaginary problems with inappropriate tools". Let's see some Real World examples of situations that have caused the council a problem (no I don't want a whole bunch more straw men made), an= d I invite the trustees to present real world cases of enquiries they have received relating to such issues. --hOrGJ2UaP1bsRADpu4itfzri9ApOdoC2A-- --BuLveVPRa92sRMFNK38weLme7E5Yziabj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJcpSgGAAoJEGPnxnn01DHdn7MP/1EKWvyTfcNUpWT8zMsf4MbB In6EhCjSCOjiM3DTIDqF7rKxZECphney3jOIU/+DrqFfRtstuiAIb9XnLHG2OlIF 17QSPJEuLcfeP7DtN3cjrhq3Z+5Urik0rKfPScpKKGzfgT4obEfPv1ZPxV0EIys/ nMCkU/2Kz9xFigpIe85al2LDAx20pt6aOxQJuLoSejbcZkQ8Pj8+C3/K4PiocK1N DvuSXmw8hNLkW5iAc+8nvhhTMbHw1aqu6RGV3OUgI5LqPfpVhhwEHqsqTIzvfl0R Q1lubRd3CjdUVhgj2M17PIdBOR8iIgh2YlPOzM+of+P1Y8kmPeEroayr+GcFY1fk J2V8xdlGdZBpHeZZ69sDWqhJXvzg0w08trqE3Z3ysl+Wir1e/FFDjIv2IUzVZwIf vo9ZkZSKrgtT2SA9J+EZU19APay4/x+xEmo9R1g4zb4nb8tQDGI5NlT0DYlnEwDw Vwfy8HT+t3z1Bpjr1pYM96xlNqbWOqwXf9U8WGzz/yGK4Rp9QFiQAMORPvhDJ8iP 3WhRYrfEWJkqNmp+JUvO/mp3Vev9pGauVfnV5YwYwqrxltHmZmuMbr8389yotEeE QU+8ValX9v96xND+JvTpp7p/WtGfCHr2T+vwx63Y6tcsj4l4kRYgXL1UBGYkZuSs EyHNlljYcJICDaU/9xZ6 =VNyE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BuLveVPRa92sRMFNK38weLme7E5Yziabj--