[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-core] Gentoo Code of Conduct

[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-core] Gentoo Code of Conduct

[hasufell]

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On 05/22/2013 03:32 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 8:45 AM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Kindness happens in action, not in words.
>> 
> 
> Uttering words is in itself an action, and the two aren't
> exclusive. We can strive for kindness in both action AND words.
> The words can actually be incredibly destructive too - anybody who
> sees them is affected by them.
> 

What I meant is that I do not consider eloquent and diplomatic
behavior as "kind" in any way. At best it is "polite".


On 05/22/2013 03:36 PM, Luca Barbato wrote:> On 05/22/2013 02:36 PM,
hasufell wrote:
>> On 05/22/2013 09:48 AM, Michael Palimaka wrote:> On 22/05/2013 
>> 16:08, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>>> But the fun stops when people insist in their attitude and 
>>>> nobody cares. hasufell once said (I don't remember the exact 
>>>> words) that we're gentoo-devs, thus I should expect us to be 
>>>> "mean".
>>> It's unfortunate but that's no surprise at all.
>> 
>> What I dislike far more than people insulting me is if people 
>> misquote me or put words into my mouth I never said.
>> 
>> <hasufell>	if it would be a happy environment, then stupidity
>> would win over technical knowledge
> 
> happy environment and technical knowledge are orthogonal.
> 

That's why I explained what I meant in more detail. It's not about
establishing a happy environment, but a professionel environment. We
are not primarily devs to have fun alltogether and make friends and
buddies.
Ofc, if that comes with our work, then it's fine.

>> I think that is more related to the fact that people do not 
>> concentrate on technical dispute and technical issues. That is
>> the problem in my opinion; not someone sending me a PM and
>> yelling at me loud because I did stupid things and hell he may be
>> right about that.
> 
> In my opinion yelling is already bad.
> 

In many professional environments yelling is the most efficient way to
prevent mistakes from happening again. It still does not imply insults
or disrespecting another person.
It's about making a lot of noise if something bad happened. And making
NO noise if nothing bad happened.
The latter is quite important too.

In the end it still does affect thousands(?) of users if we do stupid
things.
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[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-core] Gentoo Code of Conduct

[hasufell]

On 05/22/2013 04:48 PM, Luca Barbato wrote:
> On 05/22/2013 04:25 PM, hasufell wrote:
>> That's why I explained what I meant in more detail. It's not about
>> establishing a happy environment, but a professionel environment. We
>> are not primarily devs to have fun alltogether and make friends and
>> buddies.
>> Ofc, if that comes with our work, then it's fine.
> 
> You got your priorities wrong then.
> 
> You must get along with people, "professional" means nothing.
> 

Professional means to get along with people despite your personal
opinion/feelings about them, to point out their mistakes and to admit
your own mistakes.

So I think I got my priorities right.

>> In many professional environments yelling is the most efficient way to
>> prevent mistakes from happening again. It still does not imply insults
>> or disrespecting another person.
> 
> Not productive, not nice, not here please.
> 

I definitely made different experiences about that and I will continue
that behavior, because it does not collide with the code of conduct.

Example: when you break my ebuilds I will yell at you depending on how
severe that breakage is:
flaming/trolling? -- no, just being blunt and honest with you
Posting/participating only to incite drama or negativity? -- no, I'd PM
you anyway
Being judgmental, mean-spirited or insulting -- no, I'm only interested
in resolving the issue and to make sure it does not happen again
Constantly purveying misinformation -- unrelated

>> It's about making a lot of noise if something bad happened. And making
>> NO noise if nothing bad happened.
>> The latter is quite important too.
> 
> Making noise just makes difficult to get any kind of signal.
> 

FOSS does not work without noise, which just means pulling attention for
important problems and making people aware of their mistakes.

If you do not make noise, people will ignore the issue.

>> In the end it still does affect thousands(?) of users if we do stupid
>> things.
> 
> Not really, we have layers of protection to avoid that. Being careful is
> what prevents us from impacting users, not being rude.
> 

There is no layer of protection against eclass commits that break the tree.

If nobody yells when that happens, then it will happen again. And it does.

On 05/22/2013 05:10 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at
10:48 AM, Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 05/22/2013 04:25 PM, hasufell wrote:
>>> In many professional environments yelling is the most efficient way to
>>> prevent mistakes from happening again. It still does not imply insults
>>> or disrespecting another person.
>>
>> Not productive, not nice, not here please.
>
> Ditto.  And frankly, I've never worked in a corporation that would
> consider yelling acceptable behavior under any circumstances beyond
> overcoming ambient noise (the literal kind - like in a machine room).
>

Now I am unsure if you understood what I meant with "yelling", since I'm
not a native english speaker.
I do not mean shouting, but to make sure the other person is aware that
I am angry about what happened.
I have never worked anywhere, where this was not part of the hierarchy.
If you mess up and cause a hell of trouble my boss would not just
approach me and say "hey dude, there was a little problem".


I find parts of this discussion really silly to be honest.
If someone gets angry with me for a technical reason I do not have _any_
problem with that.
The problem is rather that people get angry without any technical
reason. Now I have a few theories why that is, but I'll keep that to myself.

[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-core] Gentoo Code of Conduct

[hasufell]

On 05/22/2013 05:48 PM, Luca Barbato wrote:
>> I do not mean shouting, but to make sure the other person is aware that
>> I am angry about what happened.
> 
> You shouldn't be angry.

Ehm, whatever.

What I wanted to say by all these lines of text is: devs being angry is
NOT the problem.

It's when there is no reason for it or when it derails into flaming.
That is definitely not always the case.

And it's also about people who cannot differentiate between anger which
is backed up by technical statements and unprofessional behavior in the
sense that ones feelings disturb the course of a discussion.

For me, that is a very clear difference. Which does not mean I am not
capable of the latter. But that needs someone to yell at me then ;)