From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44EFC138359 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:14:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3031E084A; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:14:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A33E6E0841; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:14:32 +0000 (UTC) To: Gentoo project list References: <3DNHYPVJ.ZP6DXOMC.77SLS25M@2JNOGB72.2REWWL55.OLWUVSV6> From: "Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)" Autocrypt: addr=klondike@gentoo.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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Message-ID: <4cbc0905-b0c2-e207-9929-93e85be19704@gentoo.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:14:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3DNHYPVJ.ZP6DXOMC.77SLS25M@2JNOGB72.2REWWL55.OLWUVSV6> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Y6xDe0wLG3hoSiTsoYZgAzzxDNyGniSEd" X-Archives-Salt: 06bbf9e4-e2ec-47bc-84ca-6a979eb71d8b X-Archives-Hash: f7769cc0053aaa0584201138f41846c6 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Y6xDe0wLG3hoSiTsoYZgAzzxDNyGniSEd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fpiSyiND2LCW1ahbiecOjzvYSLw21fDJQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)" Reply-To: Gentoo project list To: Gentoo project list Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: <4cbc0905-b0c2-e207-9929-93e85be19704@gentoo.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Shutting down the Off the Wall forum finally? References: <3DNHYPVJ.ZP6DXOMC.77SLS25M@2JNOGB72.2REWWL55.OLWUVSV6> In-Reply-To: <3DNHYPVJ.ZP6DXOMC.77SLS25M@2JNOGB72.2REWWL55.OLWUVSV6> --fpiSyiND2LCW1ahbiecOjzvYSLw21fDJQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: sv-FI To any developers, replying here will send your answers to gentoo-project= , keep that in mind! El 10/11/20 a las 11:15, Roy Bamford escribi=F3: > Team, > Why is this discussion even happening on a closed list! > We have a public bug https://bugs.gentoo.org/677824 > Its been discussed by the council in public at least once > 202f30b7-be52-287d-e00c-707c20e84f69@gentoo.org > That means its on -project somewhere. > > Its in breach of the Social Contract. > https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/philosophy/social-contract.html > Specfically, > We will not hide problems. > > That leads to a logical contradiction. > 1. Its not a problem. > 2. Many correspondents are deliberately ignoring the=20 > Social Contract > 3. Protagonists want to express themselves is such a=20 > way that they would be ashamed for Google to index it. > > No excuses.=20 > This discussion is a continuation of a previous > public discussion and belongs on -project ... unless someone > has something to hide of course. > I was surprised nobody raised this (the Social Contract) before, but sinc= e I have yet to read all the mail I didn't feel comfortable raising this = in case somebody else raised this already. Two more things I'd like to add, first this other quote from the Foundati= on's page: Gentoo lives for the community, by the community Gentoo strives to please its users. The Gentoo community is Gentoo's goal= of life. Without community there is no Gentoo. To help Gentoo's developm= ent, the community provides a continuous stream of feedback and contribut= es to the various aspects of the Gentoo distribution. This cooperative mo= del will remain valid for Gentoo's entire lifespan. I'm not going to judge if those forum members are part of the community o= r even if the community wants them to be part of it. But keep in mind tha= t we (developers with access to gentoo-core) are not the full community. I would also like to talk a bit about consequences. The off topic forum is not needed for the good working of the Gentoo Proj= ect or its development in the short term but it is needed by its communit= y and therefore by the project in the long term. The matter is not the forum in itself, that is actually a fairly minor is= sue, but the ability of creating interpersonal relations that strengthen = the feeling of belonging for the members of the community (and therefore = motivates their members to keep contributing to keep it thriving). Not pr= oviding a place were the forums community can bond is a good way to get t= hem alienated and eventually destroy it. So is having a toxic place to bo= nd or a place where friendly discussions are not possible (which this see= ms to be). We should also keep in mind that the current situation hasn't just magica= lly appeared out of nowhere.=A0 Gentoo has for many years (it already was= when I first came in contact with it ca 15 years ago) a meme in certain = forums that in the last years have been leaning more and more to the extr= emes of a certain side of the political spectrum. It is easy to see where= is this kind of speech coming from and how we ended up where we are. To = keep such people away we need a significant part of the community to agre= e and act so that they are not welcome, and this is not just us the devel= opers, this is something where we need most of the users too! We can (and should) be more strict on enforcing the etiquette to keep dis= cussions respectful and on track, we should merge topics with similar dis= cussions to avoid giving political issues much visibility and maybe set u= p a cool down period so the waters can calm a bit before we open discussi= ons again there are various ways to achieve that. Keep in mind that if th= e users don't contribute we will be back at square one as soon as communi= cation channels open again. We also have the issue of such users moving and poisoning other channels = which was commented before. This is a very undesirable effect so we shoul= d be sure we (their moderators) can take the extra heat on them! Finally we have the also mentioned issue of the media. And this can becom= e a serious storm for PR! The way it looks right now is: * We have closed a communication channel. * For lack of manpower to keep it useful. * After a closed discussion were a significant part of the community was = left away. This is bad for the project in many ways, giving the image of "lack of ma= intenance" is going to keep users away (but this will happen no matter wh= at we do so we should prepare for it). But closing an open comunication c= hannel on a project that prides itself in giving freedom (of choice) and = doing so after a closed door discussion is not in anyway something good f= or us. We can act on certain things (keep the discussion open to start wi= th, I am in coherence doing so). And we can try to limit the damage on ot= hers (offer alternative channels for example or name a change of focus), = but we should be prepared no matter what decission we take, and for this = having all the community on the same page matters! I'm not going to make any value judgements on what should happen to the O= TW forum (or the forums in general) as I'm trying to act as a honest brok= er here (in fact my only relationship with them has been the casual brows= ing when looking for solutions via Google) and share my experience on man= aging communities. But please, no matter what decission you take, be cohe= rent with the project values! Klondike --fpiSyiND2LCW1ahbiecOjzvYSLw21fDJQ-- --Y6xDe0wLG3hoSiTsoYZgAzzxDNyGniSEd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEDaSLWSPwfVgqfnPQ9L3S7+j/ePkFAl+qdg4ACgkQ9L3S7+j/ ePnlOg//Uod0PLgaZqcTA3e1aCkX8rvxXz98Te61/GPlLx3wRIggTsmY74Bl1ORY 4PtPr742EXBoYzSZ24jtBzvuCurQrF2IPvIX3I6oycqWqBDLQ0nT8Xs/bQGoFpGl Chkl+vQJnP47Gus8bnB5WN7vn4ro2K+JH/oygu2uS/843htnni4OQmpRikjb3DZN aInsKt7hgwvLPauEFrWbFs1BcKOL76RKmCsIcZ4eApozbp/7MvuLLJw7wnt4FCZY 3nuL/uLOgTR1e2OpaL9Tzn1Iv7WFxRBgCzax31rUTrJAdCTaXFun5GxTRe+3f/Um Z3f8+ehHekiLxHRPx10p8G9UkcjSqEYMv/Z8Lba3ln14v/dwH148hUlA7/Xv3llf AhnaaKhCRgZQJwHBqjnD9tx0NRC97t9pZJiwnRRXGKjoAtrSNZiJm7uKOLj1mysJ C94GCXkasa0kTG5zoN432fEOPd0ZVYJQe/GL+2hdlwm/wztlvmXvfuMFR3W6BA5E gMTfuizh5CYbtclhINgCIQaFJN2KHXvBwVxAZrVYJwuuCM/gdwg6b2qD0Ao6kjHs 8KxJm76IKMwtc+k8J5tQEcDysOJDhccrZSavD+8CvLGnp2qOjQ4J3nwSQIOvHJSC 6B1BxJVikxVKIVHOa9E35SIPhMw0d4GvMaE9HO0LUFRq6PVGgJs= =Mw01 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y6xDe0wLG3hoSiTsoYZgAzzxDNyGniSEd--