[gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Markos Chandras]

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Hi,

This is the second item I would like to discuss for the next Council
agenda ( or a later one )

Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a developer
has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in the
Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will vote
twice on that matter. A developer who wants to appeal to Council, seeks
a review of his case and a fresh voting from new people. However, having
devrel members, which are already biased based on the previous decision,
makes the "Council's court role" a moot role :)

Again, this is just a brainstorming, so please let me know what you think.

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a developer
> has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in the
> Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will vote
> twice on that matter.

So, the way I view it is the Council is the elected body elected by
the Devs to govern the Devs.  If they feel the best way to resolve
disputes is to have Devrel first hear them then that is fine.  If they
want to personally hear all disputes and have no avenue of appeal
whatsoever that is fine too.  If they want to take turns hearing
disputes and then only hear appeals if there is a majority vote to
even hear the appeal in the first place, that is fine too.

If Devs don't like the way it is being done, they can always elect
somebody else.  If a Dev doesn't like how they were treated they can
ask all the other devs to elect somebody else to reinstate them, fork
the project, or whatever.

All that said, I think the current system works fine and see no need
to change it.  I'd view the Council as being the body that ultimately
makes all DevRel decisions - they just have delegated this
responsibility and only step in if needed.

For these reasons, I see no reason with having overlapping membership
- we're a community and we govern ourselves.  The Council is elected
by the community to speak for the community, and they're allowed to
speak even if they've done so already.

For the same sorts of reasons I also see no issue with having
overlapping Council and Trustee membership (obviously allowing that
the Bylaws would need to be amended if a majority of foundation
members agreed with me).  I do see the value in having more
participation, but not the requirement.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2011.08.14 12:25, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Markos Chandras 
> <hwoarang@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a
> developer
> > has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> > Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in 
> the
> > Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will 
> vote
> > twice on that matter.
> 
[snip]

> For these reasons, I see no reason with having overlapping membership
> - we're a community and we govern ourselves.  The Council is elected
> by the community to speak for the community, and they're allowed to
> speak even if they've done so already.

The Council is elected by the members of the community holding a 
@gentoo.org email address.  Thats a very small subset of the Gentoo 
community ... but maybe we should open voting to the entire Gentoo 
community ? 

There are practical problems with that of course.

> 
> For the same sorts of reasons I also see no issue with having
> overlapping Council and Trustee membership (obviously allowing that
> the Bylaws would need to be amended if a majority of foundation
> members agreed with me).  I do see the value in having more
> participation, but not the requirement.

I see the council members as officers of the Foundation, not directors 
of the Foundation. The two roles are different and should be spilt.  
Indeed, its a failing of the Foundation today that the directors and 
officers are the same people.

> 
> Rich
> 
> 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
> The Council is elected by the members of the community holding a
> @gentoo.org email address.  Thats a very small subset of the Gentoo
> community ... but maybe we should open voting to the entire Gentoo
> community ?
>
> There are practical problems with that of course.

My main concern with that is that ultimately it is the developers that
make Gentoo go, and the focus of the Council tends to be on the
governance of the developers anyway.

If all of the devs want to do thing, and all of the users want to do
something else, then in the end the distro will end up going with the
devs, one way or another.  The only way volunteer projects go anywhere
is for volunteers to do the work.  You can't really give orders to
volunteers, but you can inspire them to follow through example.

That isn't to say that devs are the only ones who do anything for
Gentoo - there are staff who aren't devs, and I'm fine with them being
members of the Foundation.  The Council tends to stay focused on
matters that deal with the developers, so self-oversight is probably
fine.

I do hear what you're getting at though.  It sounds good to me in an
ideal world, but I am concerned that it might not work well in
practice.

> I see the council members as officers of the Foundation, not directors
> of the Foundation. The two roles are different and should be spilt.

Well, that's the whole two-headed monster bit.  They're not really
officers or directors of the Foundation, and "Gentoo" the distro and
Gentoo the Foundation aren't actually the same entity by our odd
organizational design.  Maybe you could call the Council the
leadership of the employee union.  :)

Long term it wouldn't hurt to change this.  Short-term I'd like to let
the Trustees continue to focus on getting the Foundation itself in
better shape.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2011.08.14 15:52, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Roy Bamford
> <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:

[snip]
 
> > I see the council members as officers of the Foundation, not
> > directors of the Foundation. The two roles are different and should 
> > be spilt.
> 
> Well, that's the whole two-headed monster bit.  They're not really
> officers or directors of the Foundation, and "Gentoo" the distro and
> Gentoo the Foundation aren't actually the same entity by our odd
> organizational design.  Maybe you could call the Council the
> leadership of the employee union.  :)

Lets double all the employees pay :)
 
> Long term it wouldn't hurt to change this.  Short-term I'd like to 
> let
> the Trustees continue to focus on getting the Foundation itself in
> better shape.
> 
> Rich
> 
The present two headed monster set up works well enough based on the 
good will of everyone involved while things are going well.  It is 
likely to fail under external pressure if things are not going so well.

I would like to fix it in the short to medium term so we are prepared 
for a bad patch.  Meanwhile, I agree that "the Trustees need to 
continue to focus on getting the Foundation itself better shape."

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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On 14-08-2011 14:52, Rich Freeman wrote:


<snip>



Just to clarify the above statement, everyone that joins gentoo and gets
the @gentoo.org address is a Gentoo *developer*. Some developers have
gentoo-x86 access (tree access), others might do documentation work,
moderate the forums, work with infrastructure or something else, but
even though it's easier to call them *staffers*, they are *developers* -
they just may lack the gentoo-x86 commit access.
Then we have everyone else that has made a commitment to Gentoo, albeit
with a smaller scale, and that has got the AT/HT "stamp" and everyone
else that may not have an official role but help make this a better
distribution and community every day.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:42:01 Roy Bamford wrote:
> The Council is elected by the members of the community holding a
> @gentoo.org email address.  Thats a very small subset of the Gentoo
> community ... but maybe we should open voting to the entire Gentoo
> community ?

no
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Fabian Groffen]

On 14-08-2011 12:12:32 +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a developer
> has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in the
> Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will vote
> twice on that matter. A developer who wants to appeal to Council, seeks
> a review of his case and a fresh voting from new people. However, having
> devrel members, which are already biased based on the previous decision,
> makes the "Council's court role" a moot role :)

In a way, yes you're right.  However, escalations to Council should be
rare.  Council members were elected by dev community, so apparently
people didn't bother about them being to do so.
I think it would be elegant when DevRel members in the Council would
abstain from a vote, but if that makes a small remaining group of
voters...

Perhaps it would be better when DevRel members in the Council would be
replaced by (their) proxies for such vote?  Or should random people
picked from the dev community and asked if they want to cast a vote?

Perhaps the Council should be released from this task at all, and
instead should be given the job to assemble a jury out of the dev
community (with non-involvement in DevRel) that is to examine the case,
and make a final verdict that the Council will accept/act upon.

Just brainstorming along with you.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Markos Chandras]

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On 08/14/2011 12:27 PM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> On 14-08-2011 12:12:32 +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a
>> developer has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not
>> happy with a Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same
>> people in the Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same
>> people will vote twice on that matter. A developer who wants to
>> appeal to Council, seeks a review of his case and a fresh voting
>> from new people. However, having devrel members, which are already
>> biased based on the previous decision, makes the "Council's court
>> role" a moot role :)
> 
> In a way, yes you're right.  However, escalations to Council should
> be rare.  Council members were elected by dev community, so
> apparently people didn't bother about them being to do so. I think it
> would be elegant when DevRel members in the Council would abstain
> from a vote, but if that makes a small remaining group of voters...

Yes it is very rare but still there is a possibility to happen, and in
this case, it makes no sense having the same people vote twice on the
same issue.
> 
> Perhaps it would be better when DevRel members in the Council would
> be replaced by (their) proxies for such vote?
In my mind, a proxy= a guy who thinks the same way I do, so it makes no
difference whether the Council member or the proxy votes.

Or should random people
> picked from the dev community and asked if they want to cast a vote?
This is a bit risky, people may be biased ( I really like this dev || I
really hate this dude ) and again the voting may not be just.

> 
> Perhaps the Council should be released from this task at all, and 
> instead should be given the job to assemble a jury out of the dev 
> community (with non-involvement in DevRel) that is to examine the
> case, and make a final verdict that the Council will accept/act
> upon.
> 
Same problem as before. You need to make sure that the jury will not be
biased. This introduces another layer of bureaucracy. We have enough of
them already

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 08/14/2011 12:27 PM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps the Council should be released from this task at all, and
>> instead should be given the job to assemble a jury out of the dev
>> community (with non-involvement in DevRel) that is to examine the
>> case, and make a final verdict that the Council will accept/act
>> upon.
>>
> Same problem as before. You need to make sure that the jury will not be
> biased. This introduces another layer of bureaucracy. We have enough of
> them already
>

I'm not sure we want an "unbiased" jury (as if such a thing could ever
exist).  We want a jury that is biased to agree with the majority of
the Dev community.  I'd suggest that one already exists - the council.

It seems to me that there is some kind of concern about "fairness" and
that begs the question "what is fair?"  Gentoo is a community-driven
distro, and we all have to live with each other.  We should try to
foster a diversity of ideas, but when somebody is acting like a jerk,
then we're allowed to call them on that.  Ultimately if they don't
want to cooperate we're not required to let them disrupt the project.
Nobody has a right to be an asshole, and when they're prevented from
being such it isn't "unfair."

So, what is fair?  I'd say that fair is whatever a majority of the
community wants it to be.  It is in our interests to not turn away
help, and to seek contribution from wherever it is offered.  So, we
already have incentive to bear with productive people who sometimes
behave poorly.  We don't need to find some kind of arbitrator who will
force us to bear with a problem longer than we wish to.

Now, having a team that specializes in dealing with problems just
makes sense, just like it makes sense to have people who love PERL
maintain the PERL herd.  The only reason PERL issues should go before
the Council is if a PERL problem causes trouble for everybody else.
If that happens then the council should do its job - figure out what
the community needs and make it happen.  Devrel decisions are no
different.

I think the only cause for a council or trustee member to recuse
themselves is a personal conflict of interest.  If I propose some
great way to spend foundation funds, I'm not going to recuse myself
from the vote just because it was my idea.  On the other hand, if I
propose that a company I own shares in do some job for the foundation
then I'm going to disclose that conflict of interest up-front, and
more than likely I would recuse myself.  Having an educated opinion
isn't a conflict of interest, but having a specific and personal
relationship to the matter being discussed is.  My feeling is that
Council members should only recuse themselves from Devrel actions if
they're very personally involved - such as being a very close personal
friend or relative of the "accused," or if they were personally
heavily involved in the complaint itself.  Even that is a gray area -
just because a council member points out that somebody is behaving
badly doesn't make them personally involved - the problem needs to
strongly impact them in a personal way that it doesn't impact the
community at large.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a developer
> has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in the
> Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will vote
> twice on that matter.


So, the way I view it is the Council is the elected body elected by
the Devs to govern the Devs.  If they feel the best way to resolve
disputes is to have Devrel first hear them then that is fine.  If they
want to personally hear all disputes and have no avenue of appeal
whatsoever that is fine too.  If they want to take turns hearing
disputes and then only hear appeals if there is a majority vote to
even hear the appeal in the first place, that is fine too.

If Devs don't like the way it is being done, they can always elect
somebody else.  If a Dev doesn't like how they were treated they can
ask all the other devs to elect somebody else to reinstate them, fork
the project, or whatever.

All that said, I think the current system works fine and see no need
to change it.  I'd view the Council as being the body that ultimately
makes all DevRel decisions - they just have delegated this
responsibility and only step in if needed.

For these reasons, I see no reason with having overlapping membership
- we're a community and we govern ourselves.  The Council is elected
by the community to speak for the community, and they're allowed to
speak even if they've done so already.

For the same sorts of reasons I also see no issue with having
overlapping Council and Trustee membership (obviously allowing that
the Bylaws would need to be amended if a majority of foundation
members agreed with me).  I do see the value in having more
participation, but not the requirement.

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Thomas Sachau]

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Markos Chandras schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> This is the second item I would like to discuss for the next Council
> agenda ( or a later one )
> 
> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a developer
> has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in the
> Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will vote
> twice on that matter. A developer who wants to appeal to Council, seeks
> a review of his case and a fresh voting from new people. However, having
> devrel members, which are already biased based on the previous decision,
> makes the "Council's court role" a moot role :)

I have to ask the same here as for the other proposal:

Why do you restrict your proposal to a specific project? The issue you are pointing at is the same
for any other project, where someone does open an appeal to council to vote on a team decision he
does not want to accept.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Markos Chandras]

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Hash: SHA512

On 08/14/2011 01:19 PM, Thomas Sachau wrote:
> Markos Chandras schrieb:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> This is the second item I would like to discuss for the next
>> Council agenda ( or a later one )
>> 
>> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a
>> developer has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not
>> happy with a Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same
>> people in the Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same
>> people will vote twice on that matter. A developer who wants to
>> appeal to Council, seeks a review of his case and a fresh voting
>> from new people. However, having devrel members, which are already
>> biased based on the previous decision, makes the "Council's court
>> role" a moot role :)
> 
> I have to ask the same here as for the other proposal:
> 
> Why do you restrict your proposal to a specific project? The issue
> you are pointing at is the same for any other project, where someone
> does open an appeal to council to vote on a team decision he does not
> want to accept.
> 
I don't follow. I thought disputes were handled this way

1) Contact the guy and resolve the issue with him without bothering the
rest of team members
2) Ask team lead
3) Ask devrel
4) Ask Council

There is no way to go from 2->4 without devrel's involvement.

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Thomas Sachau]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1908 bytes --]

Markos Chandras schrieb:
> On 08/14/2011 01:19 PM, Thomas Sachau wrote:
>> Markos Chandras schrieb:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> This is the second item I would like to discuss for the next
>>> Council agenda ( or a later one )
>>>
>>> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a
>>> developer has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not
>>> happy with a Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same
>>> people in the Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same
>>> people will vote twice on that matter. A developer who wants to
>>> appeal to Council, seeks a review of his case and a fresh voting
>>> from new people. However, having devrel members, which are already
>>> biased based on the previous decision, makes the "Council's court
>>> role" a moot role :)
> 
>> I have to ask the same here as for the other proposal:
> 
>> Why do you restrict your proposal to a specific project? The issue
>> you are pointing at is the same for any other project, where someone
>> does open an appeal to council to vote on a team decision he does not
>> want to accept.
> 
> I don't follow. I thought disputes were handled this way
> 
> 1) Contact the guy and resolve the issue with him without bothering the
> rest of team members
> 2) Ask team lead
> 3) Ask devrel
> 4) Ask Council
> 
> There is no way to go from 2->4 without devrel's involvement.

So lets try with an example:

A dev wants to join the Sunrise project and i as the lead say no to him.

This means, both 1 and 2 are already done, 3 does not seem reasonable to me, since it looks unlikely
to me, that DevRel could/should force a team to accept a new member, which would end with the last
point. And if both sides keep their point, council could either force his addition, which will
usually mean, that the team lead leaves or accept the decision of the team lead.




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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Markos Chandras]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 08/14/2011 02:14 PM, Thomas Sachau wrote:
> Markos Chandras schrieb:
>> On 08/14/2011 01:19 PM, Thomas Sachau wrote:
>>> Markos Chandras schrieb:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> This is the second item I would like to discuss for the next 
>>>> Council agenda ( or a later one )
>>>> 
>>>> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a 
>>>> developer has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is
>>>> not happy with a Devrel's decision. The problem is that having
>>>> the same people in the Council and in Devrel makes no sense
>>>> since the same people will vote twice on that matter. A
>>>> developer who wants to appeal to Council, seeks a review of his
>>>> case and a fresh voting from new people. However, having devrel
>>>> members, which are already biased based on the previous
>>>> decision, makes the "Council's court role" a moot role :)
>> 
>>> I have to ask the same here as for the other proposal:
>> 
>>> Why do you restrict your proposal to a specific project? The
>>> issue you are pointing at is the same for any other project,
>>> where someone does open an appeal to council to vote on a team
>>> decision he does not want to accept.
>> 
>> I don't follow. I thought disputes were handled this way
>> 
>> 1) Contact the guy and resolve the issue with him without bothering
>> the rest of team members 2) Ask team lead 3) Ask devrel 4) Ask
>> Council
>> 
>> There is no way to go from 2->4 without devrel's involvement.
> 
> So lets try with an example:
> 
> A dev wants to join the Sunrise project and i as the lead say no to
> him.
> 
> This means, both 1 and 2 are already done, 3 does not seem reasonable
> to me, since it looks unlikely to me, that DevRel could/should force
> a team to accept a new member, which would end with the last point.
> And if both sides keep their point, council could either force his
> addition, which will usually mean, that the team lead leaves or
> accept the decision of the team lead.
> 
> 
I don't think Council is eligible to force this. The council is not
supposed to interfere with how teams operate.

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Petteri Räty]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1011 bytes --]

On 14.08.2011 16:42, Markos Chandras wrote:
> 
>> So lets try with an example:
> 
>> A dev wants to join the Sunrise project and i as the lead say no to
>> him.
> 
>> This means, both 1 and 2 are already done, 3 does not seem reasonable
>> to me, since it looks unlikely to me, that DevRel could/should force
>> a team to accept a new member, which would end with the last point.
>> And if both sides keep their point, council could either force his
>> addition, which will usually mean, that the team lead leaves or
>> accept the decision of the team lead.
> 
> 
> I don't think Council is eligible to force this. The council is not
> supposed to interfere with how teams operate.
> 

The precedent is that Council can rule whatever it wants besides
changing GLEP 39. Of course in a volunteer project some might never get
executed. Changing eligibility rules for the council requires a change
to GLEP 39 so it's not something we can vote on in the next meeting.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Markos Chandras]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 08/14/2011 03:05 PM, Petteri Räty wrote:
> On 14.08.2011 16:42, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> 
>>> So lets try with an example:
>> 
>>> A dev wants to join the Sunrise project and i as the lead say no
>>> to him.
>> 
>>> This means, both 1 and 2 are already done, 3 does not seem
>>> reasonable to me, since it looks unlikely to me, that DevRel
>>> could/should force a team to accept a new member, which would end
>>> with the last point. And if both sides keep their point, council
>>> could either force his addition, which will usually mean, that
>>> the team lead leaves or accept the decision of the team lead.
>> 
>> 
>> I don't think Council is eligible to force this. The council is
>> not supposed to interfere with how teams operate.
>> 
> 
> The precedent is that Council can rule whatever it wants besides 
> changing GLEP 39. Of course in a volunteer project some might never
> get executed. Changing eligibility rules for the council requires a
> change to GLEP 39 so it's not something we can vote on in the next
> meeting.
> 
> Regards, Petteri
> 
> 
Fair enough. I was pretty sure that the Council was not supposed to
instruct projects how to operate. But anyway, this is irrelevant to the
initial discussion.

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras / Gentoo Linux Developer / Key ID: B4AFF2C2
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Petteri Räty]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1544 bytes --]

On 14.08.2011 17:11, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On 08/14/2011 03:05 PM, Petteri Räty wrote:
>> On 14.08.2011 16:42, Markos Chandras wrote:
>>>
>>>> So lets try with an example:
>>>
>>>> A dev wants to join the Sunrise project and i as the lead say no
>>>> to him.
>>>
>>>> This means, both 1 and 2 are already done, 3 does not seem
>>>> reasonable to me, since it looks unlikely to me, that DevRel
>>>> could/should force a team to accept a new member, which would end
>>>> with the last point. And if both sides keep their point, council
>>>> could either force his addition, which will usually mean, that
>>>> the team lead leaves or accept the decision of the team lead.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think Council is eligible to force this. The council is
>>> not supposed to interfere with how teams operate.
>>>
> 
>> The precedent is that Council can rule whatever it wants besides 
>> changing GLEP 39. Of course in a volunteer project some might never
>> get executed. Changing eligibility rules for the council requires a
>> change to GLEP 39 so it's not something we can vote on in the next
>> meeting.
> 
>> Regards, Petteri
> 
> 
> Fair enough. I was pretty sure that the Council was not supposed to
> instruct projects how to operate. But anyway, this is irrelevant to the
> initial discussion.
> 

I think Tommy presented a valid question but you are just missing the
point. DevRel is just a body that is more likely to do decisions that
are doing to be appealed to the council.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Mike Frysinger]

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this has come up multiple times in the past as a concern, but in practice has 
never been an issue.  if members feel like there's going to be a conflict from 
themselves, they can recuse themselves.  this has happened once or twice.  i 
dont see any value in laying out red tape for an issue that has never caused a 
problem.

if you personally dont think a specific person who is in devrel and is running 
for council is incapable of making rational decisions, then dont vote for 
them.
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Samuli Suominen]

On 08/14/2011 10:01 PM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> this has come up multiple times in the past as a concern, but in practice has 
> never been an issue.  

constant problem with devrel bugs lately, with people having such
powers, acting as if they didn't need to listen to other anymore
(including members from his own team)

> if members feel like there's going to be a conflict from 
> themselves, they can recuse themselves. this has happened once or twice.  i
> dont see any value in laying out red tape for an issue that has never caused a 
> problem.

in developer relation bugs, the accused should also be allowed to recuse
such double members; as

"i'm not saying this as devrel member but..."
"i'm not saying this as council member but..."

is constantly being used as weapon by selected people, making the whole
process of devrel unfair when other members get semi ignored

> -mike

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> in developer relation bugs, the accused should also be allowed to recuse
> such double members; as
>
> "i'm not saying this as devrel member but..."
> "i'm not saying this as council member but..."
>
> is constantly being used as weapon by selected people, making the whole
> process of devrel unfair when other members get semi ignored

I don't think the accused should have any such rights.  I do think
they (or their accusers) should have a right to a speedy appeal after
any disciplinary actions are imposed or denied.  Then whatever the
decision of the Council is, the will of the Gentoo Developer Community
has been done.  That's why we elect them.

Now, if people are somehow being denied an appeal then that is a
different matter.

Is your concern that non-council members of devrel feel like they have
less say, since the decision can be appealed to council and so they're
forced to more-or-less go along with what they feel the council will
want?  If so, then I'd say the system is working as intended.  When a
district judge is making a ruling, the first thing he does is sees
what higher courts have ruled in the past.  It is a waste of
everybody's time for a judge to come up with a ruling that he knows
will be reversed.  The only reason we have lower courts is that it
doesn't scale well to have every dispute heard by the highest court of
the land.  It is much the same with the Council.  If the Council
thinks that a certain devrel stance will improve the distro, then it
is their place to make that request and enforce it via appeals if
necessary.

Face it, Gentoo is a pretty easy place to get something done as long
as it doesn't involve stepping on everybody else's toes.  Actually,
most teams are good about cooperating - if I got pinged that one of my
packages didn't work with the latest libfoo stable candidate I'd be
sure to take a look at it, and treecleaners would step in if I didn't
after a reasonable time.  The only time we really need the Council is
for the big decisions.  And, those big decisions don't get made more
effectively if everybody is questioning the right of anybody to make
the big decisions.

In the end, SOMEBODY has to make the last call.  We might as well make
it an elected body.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Hash: SHA1

On 15-08-2011 02:19, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> On 08/14/2011 10:01 PM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> this has come up multiple times in the past as a concern, but in
>> practice has never been an issue.
> 
> constant problem with devrel bugs lately, with people having such 
> powers, acting as if they didn't need to listen to other anymore 
> (including members from his own team)

I understand you may not agree with all or some of DevRel decisions and
I don't think we've ever claimed all decisions are reached by an
unanimous vote, but all DevRel members are addressed when an issue is
brought up to a vote and all are expected to vote and express their opinion.
All members are trusted and expected to make up their own mind in a
reasonable manner, hearing the case and giving a chance for parties to
explain themselves and or present their arguments. This doesn't mean
individual members should have no background on an issue and or a prior
opinion, only that they need to keep an open mind and take into account
latest developments, nor that they will have to change their opinion to
satisfy anyone else's desires.
Since the decision and the cast of votes are being published in the
conclusion of the issues, the wider community has access to some
information that should help form an opinion on how DevRel is working.

>> if members feel like there's going to be a conflict from 
>> themselves, they can recuse themselves. this has happened once or
>> twice.  i dont see any value in laying out red tape for an issue
>> that has never caused a problem.
> 
> in developer relation bugs, the accused should also be allowed to
> recuse such double members; as
> 
> "i'm not saying this as devrel member but..." "i'm not saying this as
> council member but..."
> 
> is constantly being used as weapon by selected people, making the
> whole process of devrel unfair when other members get semi ignored

When a Gentoo developer that is both a DevRel member and is serving a
term in Council acts in a bug, clearing in what role he/she is
intervening should only help clarify his intervention - I don't see how
that can be "used as a weapon".
If there is any doubt about any comments I may have made in the last
year and in which I expressed in which role I made the comment, let me
make it clear that the intention was just to clarify in which role I was
intervening - there were no "second intentions" in such comments.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[William Hubbs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 894 bytes --]

Hi,

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:12:32PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a developer
> has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in the
> Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will vote
> twice on that matter. A developer who wants to appeal to Council, seeks
> a review of his case and a fresh voting from new people. However, having
> devrel members, which are already biased based on the previous decision,
> makes the "Council's court role" a moot role :)

It definitely does create a conflict of interest.

I think there are a couple of ways to handle it:

1) don't allow council members to be in devrel, or
2) don't allow council members who are also in devrel to vote in
appeals.

What does everyone think?

William


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:28 PM, William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
> It definitely does create a conflict of interest.
>

What kind of conflict are we actually talking about?  It isn't a
conflict of interest to hold an opinion.  It is only a conflict if the
personal interests of a council member aren't aligned with the
interests of the developer community as a whole.

If a Council member has been investigating a situation closely, then
my feeling is that they're in a BETTER position to evaluate the
situation and not a worse one.  The DevRel process is not an
adversarial one.

If we as a community can't trust somebody's ability to be
professional, then the last thing we should do is elect them to the
Council.  Keep in mind that Developers only can lose their status if
they really tick a lot of people off.  Council members lose their
status by default every 12 months.

Is there a problem here that actually needs to be solved?  Can
somebody point to a recent situation where a conflict of interest
between a Council member and a developer led to a decision that a
majority of the community would consider inappropriate?

Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Donnie Berkholz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1403 bytes --]

On 15:17 Tue 16 Aug     , Rich Freeman wrote:
> What kind of conflict are we actually talking about?  It isn't a 
> conflict of interest to hold an opinion.  It is only a conflict if the 
> personal interests of a council member aren't aligned with the 
> interests of the developer community as a whole.
> 
> If a Council member has been investigating a situation closely, then 
> my feeling is that they're in a BETTER position to evaluate the 
> situation and not a worse one.  The DevRel process is not an 
> adversarial one.
> 
> If we as a community can't trust somebody's ability to be 
> professional, then the last thing we should do is elect them to the 
> Council.  Keep in mind that Developers only can lose their status if 
> they really tick a lot of people off.  Council members lose their 
> status by default every 12 months.
> 
> Is there a problem here that actually needs to be solved?  Can 
> somebody point to a recent situation where a conflict of interest 
> between a Council member and a developer led to a decision that a 
> majority of the community would consider inappropriate?

I don't normally post +1, but to get my opinion out as a council member 
I will do so. I agree with Rich 1000% on everything he's said in this 
thread.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Council Member / Sr. Developer
Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.com

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Mike Frysinger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 267 bytes --]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2011 16:46:32 Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> I don't normally post +1, but to get my opinion out as a council member
> I will do so. I agree with Rich 1000% on everything he's said in this
> thread.

i agree, but i already said as much earlier
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Roy Bamford]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1682 bytes --]

On 2011.08.16 19:28, William Hubbs wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:12:32PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a
> developer
> > has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy with a
> > Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people in 
> the
> > Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people will 
> vote
> > twice on that matter. A developer who wants to appeal to Council,
> seeks
> > a review of his case and a fresh voting from new people. However,
> having
> > devrel members, which are already biased based on the previous
> decision,
> > makes the "Council's court role" a moot role :)
> 
> It definitely does create a conflict of interest.
> 
> I think there are a couple of ways to handle it:
> 
> 1) don't allow council members to be in devrel, or
> 2) don't allow council members who are also in devrel to vote in
> appeals.
> 
> What does everyone think?
> 
> William
> 
> 

Team,

I think anyone who gets elected to council has the trust of developers 
to recluse themselves avoid the conflict of interest.  It becomes a 
problem when council is almost a subset of devrel and there are very 
few people, perhaps zero, who were not involved in the original devrel 
decision.

Council were set up to provide technical leadership, so maybe appeals, 
need to be heard by a different body anyway. Maybe by a randomly 
selected group of devs assembled on a case by case basis, as has 
already been suggested? 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should DevRel members be in Council?

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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On 14-08-2011 11:12, Markos Chandras wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This is the second item I would like to discuss for the next Council 
> agenda ( or a later one )
> 
> Quite a few of you know that Council acts as a court in case a
> developer has unresolved disputes with Devrel or when he is not happy
> with a Devrel's decision. The problem is that having the same people
> in the Council and in Devrel makes no sense since the same people
> will vote twice on that matter. A developer who wants to appeal to
> Council, seeks a review of his case and a fresh voting from new
> people. However, having devrel members, which are already biased
> based on the previous decision, makes the "Council's court role" a
> moot role :)
> 
> Again, this is just a brainstorming, so please let me know what you
> think.

Yes, we should have no rules preventing DevRel members from running to
and or serve in the Council. Furthermore, to address this type of
concerns, in every Council election the table of candidates has a column
for DevRel members, current Council members and Trustees[1]. So it's up
to the developer community to decide if they want a particular
candidate, DevRel member or not, to serve in the Council.
Also, the Council serves as an "appeal body"[2], not a "trial court"[3].
To address some of the suggestions on this thread, my opinion is that
DevRel is the body with disciplinary oversight over developers and that
Council should restrict itself to appeals. In my view, by having direct
intervention, the Council would limit itself and prevent any chance of
an appeal.
In addition, "trial by popularity" is always a bad idea and as others
have stated, council members are frequently elected for dealing with
technical issues and are not or may not have the required skill set to
deal with disciplinary issues.

 [1] -
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/2011/council-201106-nominees.xml
 [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellate_court
 [3] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_court

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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