[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: How to improve the trustees

[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: How to improve the trustees

[George Prowse]

Roy Bamford wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 2008.02.03 16:49, Matthew Summers wrote:
>> Roy Bamford wrote:
>>>
>>> Many new users come to gentoo as their first Linux. Many of them
>>> are poorly informed about both Linux and Gentoo - I don't know how
>>> to reach this group *before* they start asking for help in #gentoo
>>> and on the forums. Thats the sort problem we have to solve.
>>>
>>>
>> Roy,
>>
>> Towards a solution to this particular issue above, I suggest Gentoo
>> provides a documentation project (possibly) entitled "Learning Linux
>> with Gentoo".  Within this we could easily address many issues faced
>> by new Linux/Gentoo users.  It would seem, as well, to be a good
>> service to the Gentoo and larger Linux communities, as many users of
>> other distros get information from our documentation pages as well as
>> our forums.  This could potentially increase Gentoo's exposure as 
>> well
>> as our user base by "de-mystifying" Gentoo and basically easing new
>> users into our way of operating, while also providing a great 
>> resource
>> for all Linux/Gentoo users.   I do want to state that this is not in
>> any way intended to disparage the efforts of the Gentoo Documentation
>> Project in any way. I think our docs are fantastic in many ways.  I 
>> am
>> simply suggesting some various extensions to that documentation base
>> as well as some updates.
>>
>> This would also fit into my earlier proposition regarding the use of
>> university technical writing interns for said documentation projects
>> as posted to this list and syndicated as a guest post on Joshua
>> Jackson's (tsunam) blog.
>>
>> As always, I offer my assistance/support in the aforementioned
>> endeavor.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Matthew W. Summers
>> (quantumsummers)
>>
>>
>>
> Matthew,
> 
> I think this is a good idea. However, one of the issues is that a body 
> of new users is not even aware of the existance of the current 
> documentation. 
> 
> e.g. How to head off questions like "I've just started the minimal CD 
> to install Gentoo but all I get is a black screen with some text at the 
> bottom. Where do I click to install Gentoo?"
> 
> I'm not 100% sure it wasn't a troll but as this represents a class of 
> problems seen on the forums, I'm sure that some are genuine. 
> 

Maybe a quick Q&A for newcomers is needed? A kind of precis of what
there already is with links to the longer documents?

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[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: How to improve the trustees

[Steve Long]

George Prowse wrote:
> Roy Bamford wrote:
>> On 2008.02.03 16:49, Matthew Summers wrote:
>>> Roy Bamford wrote:
>>>> Many new users come to gentoo as their first Linux. Many of them
>>>> are poorly informed about both Linux and Gentoo - I don't know how
>>>> to reach this group *before* they start asking for help in #gentoo
>>>> and on the forums. Thats the sort problem we have to solve.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Roy,
>>>
>>> Towards a solution to this particular issue above, I suggest Gentoo
>>> provides a documentation project (possibly) entitled "Learning Linux
>>> with Gentoo".  Within this we could easily address many issues faced
>>> by new Linux/Gentoo users.
<snip> 
>>>
>>> As always, I offer my assistance/support in the aforementioned
>>> endeavor.
>>>
>> Matthew,
>> 
>> I think this is a good idea. However, one of the issues is that a body
>> of new users is not even aware of the existance of the current
>> documentation.
>> 
>> e.g. How to head off questions like "I've just started the minimal CD
>> to install Gentoo but all I get is a black screen with some text at the
>> bottom. Where do I click to install Gentoo?"
>> 
>> I'm not 100% sure it wasn't a troll but as this represents a class of
>> problems seen on the forums, I'm sure that some are genuine.
>> 
> 
> Maybe a quick Q&A for newcomers is needed? A kind of precis of what
> there already is with links to the longer documents?
> 
I have to say all this sounds like lowering the bar a little too far. While
I am all for introducing newbs to Gentoo (in fact I've just got a
67-year-old and his wife, who don't know computers at all, hooked on Gentoo
KDE;) that's not the same as them learning to install and administer a
Genoo Linux system.

I'd favour a "Why Gentoo Is Not For You" page, done as politely and
respectfully as we can, pointing out that some basic *nix knowledge,
including at the CLI, is pretty much mandatory for someone to be able to
maintain a Gentoo box properly. (I'm not interested in the corner-cases
where someone did actually manage to learn Linux on Gentoo first; sometimes
exceptions prove rules.) This is not to be elitist: it's simply so that
distros like Mandriva or Ubuntu, which /are/ setup for computing newbs, can
fulfil that part of the learning curve.

I don't think Gentoo could ever be at that stage until and unless it has the
equivalent of the Mandrake Control Centre. #gentoo-guis is working towards
that imo, so join there and help out if you want to make Gentoo "just
work". himerge is really lush, if a bit tricky to install; insns at:
http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Himerge


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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: How to improve the trustees

[George Prowse]

Steve Long wrote:
> George Prowse wrote:
>> Roy Bamford wrote:
>>> On 2008.02.03 16:49, Matthew Summers wrote:
>>>> Roy Bamford wrote:
>>>>> Many new users come to gentoo as their first Linux. Many of them
>>>>> are poorly informed about both Linux and Gentoo - I don't know how
>>>>> to reach this group *before* they start asking for help in #gentoo
>>>>> and on the forums. Thats the sort problem we have to solve.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Roy,
>>>>
>>>> Towards a solution to this particular issue above, I suggest Gentoo
>>>> provides a documentation project (possibly) entitled "Learning Linux
>>>> with Gentoo".  Within this we could easily address many issues faced
>>>> by new Linux/Gentoo users.
> <snip> 
>>>> As always, I offer my assistance/support in the aforementioned
>>>> endeavor.
>>>>
>>> Matthew,
>>>
>>> I think this is a good idea. However, one of the issues is that a body
>>> of new users is not even aware of the existance of the current
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>> e.g. How to head off questions like "I've just started the minimal CD
>>> to install Gentoo but all I get is a black screen with some text at the
>>> bottom. Where do I click to install Gentoo?"
>>>
>>> I'm not 100% sure it wasn't a troll but as this represents a class of
>>> problems seen on the forums, I'm sure that some are genuine.
>>>
>> Maybe a quick Q&A for newcomers is needed? A kind of precis of what
>> there already is with links to the longer documents?
>>
> I have to say all this sounds like lowering the bar a little too far. While
> I am all for introducing newbs to Gentoo (in fact I've just got a
> 67-year-old and his wife, who don't know computers at all, hooked on Gentoo
> KDE;) that's not the same as them learning to install and administer a
> Genoo Linux system.
> 
> I'd favour a "Why Gentoo Is Not For You" page, done as politely and
> respectfully as we can, pointing out that some basic *nix knowledge,
> including at the CLI, is pretty much mandatory for someone to be able to
> maintain a Gentoo box properly. (I'm not interested in the corner-cases
> where someone did actually manage to learn Linux on Gentoo first; sometimes
> exceptions prove rules.) This is not to be elitist: it's simply so that
> distros like Mandriva or Ubuntu, which /are/ setup for computing newbs, can
> fulfil that part of the learning curve.
> 
> I don't think Gentoo could ever be at that stage until and unless it has the
> equivalent of the Mandrake Control Centre. #gentoo-guis is working towards
> that imo, so join there and help out if you want to make Gentoo "just
> work". himerge is really lush, if a bit tricky to install; insns at:
> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Himerge
> 
> 
I disagree, if you tell people what is needed to administer a Gentoo
system then they may choose an easier distro but will do so with an
informed opinion.

Anyway, Gentoo can be picked up within a few hours so it's not exactly
that advanced, the configs and portage are the only 2 things they really
need to understand.


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[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: How to improve the trustees

[George Prowse]

Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Jan Bilek <clonolu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But some
>>  people claim it is because of a lack of manpower in Gentoo - in that
>>  case we might want to re-think recruitment process.

> One. There is no waiting list for recruitment. You could be in
> recruitment today if you wanted. Notice that, if *you* wanted. If
> people spent as much time contributing as they spend thinking they're
> thinking, circling around the obvious and regurgitating randomness,
> we'd be one damn active project. And don't tell me you don't have time
> or don't have the competence. None of us have time but we make it,
> plus you spent some writing this rather long email and others. And we
> don't only need technical people. I'd even say today we mostly need
> non-technical people. The staff quiz takes only a few minutes.
> 
> Two. You don't need to be a dev to contribute. Actually, being a dev
> means contributing like any user plus having the responsibility of
> dealing with the everyday mess (to say it mildly). I can tell you it's
> not fun everyday, so you may want to stay a contributing user. Having
> cvs commit rights will not make your penis any larger, but could
> result in your significant other walking away without you even seeing
> it.
> 
> Three. You're on the nfp list. If you really want to improve
> recruitment, you want to talk to devrel's recruitment subproject.

That is what needs to be told to the community, not just one person. I'm 
pretty sure that if more people knew that then there would be a large 
influx of people.

Has Gentoo never done a recruitment drive? I'm sure I could help and/or 
fix it all up to start within a week for you...
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