From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7230F138334 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:16:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 94978E0903; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:16:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3032E08FA for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:16:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.6.88] ([212.159.46.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue004 [212.227.15.163]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MH3Pq-1fPeP41LrG-00Dpea for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:16:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] William Hubbs council manifesto 2018-2019 To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <20180616202634.GA29371@linux1.home> <1935290.nWKu69nTtg@pinacolada> <20180616232951.GA32738@linux1.home> <20180617014233.GA1567@linux1.home> <7aff3272-74c2-c5ed-92d8-fb1b4baa1eba@iee.org> <5fd69b7e-abf6-dfef-afe7-39402b8b0c68@iee.org> <20180617172604.GA6560@linux1.home> From: "M. J. Everitt" Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=m.j.everitt@iee.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFj5szgBEAC/agebayc0YHOQ/gYpGTPrSfj/IWYynaub4p55TRPUYFQrBTAwR/Qy7EH/ QxsPX6pXKmUh44j+dGMzifOFbA9tN+XQcSPYSpqJJLnajDmBFw9gIIqCLSHYAWrKkP/NNo/1 edBQO61clMRf4+quPk6Jm/EdaIcDFO9PoclRJ202NYJJqFlXmzSpPZETYu2h0YeCO3cAkJwd EkRpU18u4p0b3/N9EPlMxlfZTaGiGC+uM0OI3g4MflexOnFDLkIVa8iaOA5ws/GxN6+r05E+ 2q3jF1WhbrfxlHRim1kEtPHU/e28eiL8V5A77PvNkgQz0ff2ob5wMQ9aQLJKrCLxkBDHaj1J 5l6dF3KXzAIC2L+cqEKgBxNppqvleWTTA9TLBEk211qnBDe/PCVvWvl0R1oQX+fnxlxI3WA+ k9K6382FqN0fEslvVC5SBIZq6jnLPyIbwSSE+70lxfnR56AbnUI1p2etgz6K+lEq/3Ba20Fu WBlXNIkcogvZR8Eyz5K/iKIv7Tcj6hHq+PA57ZM/FWEFDeQsY8hTtI1/hdri4BQ4NW6JNREr duz9BVyf+V648VayYjK9SrfeGfrRnv4L7DwaU1q/nASU4IwJAnPGN4TZ9xPv6W6x76cs3iJt 4x23t3Fpn54b+oSNj5JcBIFxkkmxt/qSLqJgytaK3RJrmHuHNwARAQABzTBNLiBKLiBFdmVy aXR0IChMYXB0b3Aga2V5KSA8bS5qLmV2ZXJpdHRAaWVlLm9yZz7CwYEEEwECACsCGwMFCQPC ZwAGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJY+bowAhkBAAoJELvNRitMMx01do4P/0vZ jYo4IJI+OZMG7xpn9tbI6WDvvxP6b8yNaytlVbbSoX4ZJM0BlcEaVxQFpKxGYFWp7CAi3JH9 X93Pvt0PowAZstuO5MQklmTEsp450uv0IcfI4bXpr5Vvu6NrIBj+NMNUQFVIGYk20U0SO0gj KKl8LgLeMHiQWyTbDP8foqSIr3c8egIuHFKdSw+BKUCnTmdG1RQGKfNMiHHUPyNJopUCt/4w y7bSrBAiJTQM73mWjktpvMBYtlaYHLuCkkKQ3TL8pGlbWI2bEachxOzbE4nTLY6rlLAg+D8A t1tnXWprYN+OL0BxxqQHbWYKeboplF+XuMgDY73FfH/bzR6Z7AkBxFojIuBhfYlWNp1681xj t5MGfpZ83rTfspbbr2L+TWE/ZSOvecKXQAnve5+C2Wkqxgmolb8t7rS7GAVouD4Qul2mvem7 DAB066RxfzAxHRb9OvcEONhzuzYnj+Gi5OoD2hurhM7Ck63cHAvi65vRmkPHawsHiRlyUxUI E0/eHBWjBNH+vQFV7AfiFIytcYORpE/2T82nx6lFzvFrq6/vsTZ2m1UJ5HifusN6m6Mq0VGo tJhtTNyec/rKLEMRqHBPR2qyhuAKBkmWCEYLgiB+LGvTIibJ9LvXXwx4kr9H3ZiYT3u8I+N3 88FhfHzg/Yi5cTKm2uSRU+q/lBf31TTjzsFNBFj5szgBEACodliMRp6XsVb4TNbZK9JMGAx/ zV4HZOW7LMrDuauU2AGeY8MdzLEWhH3gARzgwnji4zoNi1mftrN5m7l5Mo8LR0MSfEzISA0o bbIqPG6bHRUV2i3zVjxIZQUoc5p4CwYdt2R1EMrfwe3o0RSQae1W0aiZCRRVFvyHImuQo1oG 5GNmhB1TW0RBL6OoFHKkBTdhT9Kkl/bNL1pWlXIkUYH1zmvwUIbswlRq9vnr2nGroS4pONKj mXFnOyzQrSw+HokwWi1mIJTfUWwJVKFTeWcD1MG6LEQhSSy3/h8EHfxzt0DDSgVdoPEzQ5g/ vjQV79rBSDiDSC3eGfpEzDabFlq16zKR3VKZ+b19NWIF6o4ZIfp2R08GHwFSzx9VNw/3RqSp UuJuRGS6+IRE0uGLzEmIzD+hYpMvcawT1QOgcbf/1dbtx9yt3W4EADT+cIReThjs8TtLd+4b Q26TnP0ZRweU3cvKZTsCLSupC2bzYQUpCK9lT/G5ZG2RZ8cA4gyGcqXFwPgJ1qPXpQv/1esd WcJ1pBXYyj/rTzFysjzrkXiW5n4jkhIx/QAvZ//+Q+m174AY2BRsNq4BVLS3BzwpiAx32Tp6 FcEUZWxjZ2r2ra1PyO1EMuKqnNmiynwlBoA/TISV8l/hok6HZF0zdef5lULdprGrdIDlPLhv J27N/7sdjQARAQABwsFlBBgBAgAPBQJY+bM4AhsMBQkDwmcAAAoJELvNRitMMx01xBsP/2e8 a6drTDEsUYvz5IyQMOu86mp5KTnovRDuTTMfgQVXHWwJMzcOmqrajVYaBeebi+AgbDWRZs4F 0MXWIlI2zfUVjgdEltqtr0HNKR+UdbRaCrSUQAb3Bkx7OSx1GnJktVv94517TXrLoRephN/v fnLe0rue8tfGP2ue41WKvdRq6yangJGa0FlSw6FpYxtO2eZyA49YLnXUGOLnr3hgM7lj8jRj RjkBe6C2l+X0B5H3NxtNv2NuwWGVvCBYKrdnT71Q6UoDWjsUlmO8PbysGQ0zRzblqMZru6O1 GaSyN0e0ChvngtBL2vFqZwuZFDMExOAEslJRxztVvbSKy2o/uQsvdPEHLtn0QbZglsgCjSDh r+Sp//5jEL87CDr+vInXbSKHeqnfkWXJq/DBGmreAqnHVho7UVtnyi/v8B9gPC9Bn/Zq2H6l BuvN+Km1tBfDY/2ILKdA5jhO1Osedip7BvBHPpq+JnTFQtsu5bhPBEI1xf7ghaklm25uR+2m vBzgLYqfSVcXQT1IQLYJOCJXTzebhbpzenxnUkfDShEjtNR4HZJjc+3kq+vfmbiCA8en4Yw9 3XpPx+FGGRi8Zn+ZKsMxN6ifwyJurW9aqZfRjnTiWp5i9kEY9X9l0JcuLTpPEF6rsiGUokQe S/3mELhhbHjD5l6T3DV70/Wg8L7qdF4Y Message-ID: <47901881-4bac-6638-d702-bfb42cfe32c4@iee.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 19:15:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nOaLbAR3I8dSo2LgGhibqEkeMeGtE6bFz" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uff7in+vENc67CSHDABSUGYijnGvgpqXeYt+xOzgHPhNYtO9nE8 cxabw0fmxw/bOkquuVqY9manJlmW5U2j1HIWtwSujsYnBThdkjZfLp5hG4m0srbiBr4tmzQ ZpMVQB7AUAS2DymBJHqL1il7sQuE7cg671YHdP4jJRvnCDZdxxX09wrwKbezGjBYmdDZ324 ckYVg1/RPYA4MW+8A7gyg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:CRFvhGPLrVE=:ACUxxP9GHg0yul2JhsCEav FCGr9V0u40CHtMpS7+aDwKEXN069LK9RWrN3NTGTQxZ0w6EacKfp1d0kHorsVAy+07a8EJxOp KKmAvz/W+vUVFqNZEpjsxvt1uQbsSfAS01byF1Sjr4uAY19vohCvNP1pp9PHygaHVSPDIr77W OX5+xXERkIl/eUq/hS1bpaorwIlyIuce0YmajYGdSwz3X4hNlEHEg47D4fJoEfl+gOGxWCbUX /pKvn0qN+CHWhmXCjMAPRd7/qsfgCLBpJ1/DI6GwbJiU6vXq4AOG9vdjIT/FYdXmx0fcGgJn4 L1IMRFdBIMXULy/82EHHiSCS2+Fp7Xf5Np/QNA+UQkDycH4pLI4uS8VTlKVxyxuqwSkmR5eJm CPF1Fhozk+w1hWLnaHvrpE+LCk6IBirjC6RCHs4tphLApodkUbGdBE973bHSpG5k3TUrTJWC4 M+TZf9D7rhdfJOT589vd9L+HIiczcuJfn23yriBwtCirZSPbsfrttU3DNcvBG/anlagllozEs zXSmwozJUMf+NI/YIggYTsLMEQvPxj5jQCgaSYTDGIr5P8uE+Fxg8CZlnO+9QyA0ZYWbkcEUE 4o3NnZ4TvpkWP0JzlZwFPVFWvyIK0BZKJpiWBEV6cq8s4fh2wg1VMXst1XuX7NVHvGZgVDxhA WeBv1WwyfkL9KfvsMpZjKT3tSauXSQlnZhBndB6mnTRnyCMWFO2n1ixBSYBUQiaDYQ6M= X-Archives-Salt: 75a78cbf-51d7-43d0-bbdb-9e54087948f5 X-Archives-Hash: e541f9c3bc57b79853e994405cfefa17 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nOaLbAR3I8dSo2LgGhibqEkeMeGtE6bFz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LLLpYMXpxgJCZ3BuWcRUviR1xYJD5c48i"; protected-headers="v1" From: "M. J. Everitt" To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: <47901881-4bac-6638-d702-bfb42cfe32c4@iee.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] William Hubbs council manifesto 2018-2019 References: <20180616202634.GA29371@linux1.home> <1935290.nWKu69nTtg@pinacolada> <20180616232951.GA32738@linux1.home> <20180617014233.GA1567@linux1.home> <7aff3272-74c2-c5ed-92d8-fb1b4baa1eba@iee.org> <5fd69b7e-abf6-dfef-afe7-39402b8b0c68@iee.org> <20180617172604.GA6560@linux1.home> In-Reply-To: --LLLpYMXpxgJCZ3BuWcRUviR1xYJD5c48i Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------49F44B17624A99848F13E4F5" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------49F44B17624A99848F13E4F5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/06/18 19:07, Alec Warner wrote: > > > On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Rich Freeman > wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM William Hubbs > wrote: > > > > My opinion though is we should give the trustees time to catch up= > > > > How much time?=C2=A0 We're 14 years in, and Robin has been working = on the > books for a few years I think.=C2=A0 Don't get me wrong - I appreci= ate the > work he is doing, but I'm not convinced it is a one-person project,= > and it doesn't end when the past is caught up. > > > I'm fairly confident we can fix the current tax problems (in the end, > its a problem we can solve with money, and we have some money.) > I'm less convinced the non-profit yields any value over other > alternatives, and so from an effort-basis I feel its necessary to wind > down and replace > with something else. > =C2=A0 > > > > > > Once that happens, I think it is better to work with them to > choose the > > future path since they own the Gentoo trademark, name, logo etc [= 1]. > > > > Working with somebody isn't the same as deferring everything to the= m. > > The problem with leaving the fate of the Foundation entirely to the= > Trustees is that there is a lot of selection bias at work.=C2=A0 Tr= ustees > are a bunch of individuals selected for their interest in running a= > non-profit (for the most part, simply volunteering for the post is > sufficient to be voted in).=C2=A0 Should we be surprised when they = advocate > for continuing to run a non-profit? > > > I really don't think this is true. Its explicitly not true for me. I > was a trustee because there were open slots and someone had to 'keep > the lights on.' > Other people who ran for the board have expressed similar sentiments. > I am running again in the next election on a platform of dissolution > (closing the foundation) which is again contrary to your argument. > There is no point in continuing to run a non-profit that continues to > nominally accrue risk with little or no upside. Eventually it will > become so toxic that you will be unable to find anyone to run it (some > may say this has already begun to happen.) This is evident partially > by the board's reduction in numbers. Previously the board had 13 > seats, then 7, then 5. I'm not superbly confident we will be able to > fill 5 seats in the next election. > > > There is also no need to wait for the Foundation to fix everything > before working on a path forward.=C2=A0 Just as individuals can use= their > own property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their ow= n > money to the Gentoo Foundation, so other entities can use their own= > property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their money = to > the Foundation. > > > I think some of the conflict is a result of communication style > (America v European) and also the internet-based communication methods > we use to meet and converse with each other. I've often pitched > something else (audio or video) but have never reached consensus. This > isn't to discount the actual area of conflict (e.g. Finances) but how > ones communicate ones ideas matters a fair bit. > > -A > =C2=A0 > > > --=20 > Rich > > Just to avoid confusion, Alex, are you talking about dissolving the organisation that is Gentoo Foundation, Inc. as a non-profit corporation, or completely eradicating the Board, Trustees and Officers such that the day-to-day organisational aspects of Gentoo either moves to the Council (*shudders*) or to another organisation entirely, with whatever baggage that ensues?! --------------49F44B17624A99848F13E4F5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 17/06/18 19:07, Alec Warner wrote:<= br>


On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Ric= h Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> My opinion though is we should give the trustees time to catch up
>

How much time?=C2=A0 We're 14 years in, and Robin ha= s been working on the
books for a few years I think.=C2=A0 Don't get me wrong - I= appreciate the
work he is doing, but I'm not convinced it is a one-person project,
and it doesn't end when the past is caught up.

I'm fairly confident we can fix the current tax problems (in the end, its a problem we can solve with money, and we have some money.)
I'm less convinced the non-profit yields any value over other alternatives, and so from an effort-basis I feel its necessary to wind down and replace
with something else.
=C2=A0

>
> Once that happens, I think it is better to work with them to choose the
> future path since they own the Gentoo trademark, name, logo etc [1].
>

Working with somebody isn't the same as deferring everything to them.

The problem with leaving the fate of the Foundation entirely to the
Trustees is that there is a lot of selection bias at work.=C2=A0 Trustees
are a bunch of individuals selected for their interest in running a
non-profit (for the most part, simply volunteering for the post is
sufficient to be voted in).=C2=A0 Should we be surprised wh= en they advocate
for continuing to run a non-profit?

I really don't think this is true. Its explicitly not true for me. I was a trustee because there were open slots and someone had to 'keep the lights on.'
Other people who ran for the board have expressed similar sentiments. I am running again in the next election on a platform of dissolution (closing the foundation) which is again contrary to your argument. There is no point in continuing to run a non-profit that continues to nominally accrue risk with little or no upside. Eventually it will become so toxic that you will be unable to find anyone to run it (some may say this has already begun to happen.) This is evident partially by the board's reduction in numbers. Previously the board had 13 seats, then 7, then 5. I'm not superbly confident we will be able to fill 5 seats in the next election.


There is also no need to wait for the Foundation to fix everything
before working on a path forward.=C2=A0 Just as individuals= can use their
own property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their own
money to the Gentoo Foundation, so other entities can use their own
property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their money to
the Foundation.

I think some of the conflict is a result of communication style (America v European) and also the internet-based communication methods we use to meet and converse with each other. I've often pitched something else (audio or video) but have never reached consensus. This isn't to discount the actual area of conflict (e.g. Finances) but how ones communicate ones ideas matters a fair bit.

-A
=C2=A0

--
Rich


Just to avoid confusion, Alex, are you talking about dissolving the organisation that is Gentoo Foundation, Inc. as a non-profit corporation, or completely eradicating the Board, Trustees and Officers such that the day-to-day organisational aspects of Gentoo either moves to the Council (*shudders*) or to another organisation entirely, with whatever baggage that ensues?!
--------------49F44B17624A99848F13E4F5-- --LLLpYMXpxgJCZ3BuWcRUviR1xYJD5c48i-- --nOaLbAR3I8dSo2LgGhibqEkeMeGtE6bFz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEERR5DB4J2baXtk4AVu81GK0wzHTUFAlsmpV0ACgkQu81GK0wz HTWEzw//T3NXpH+L7AS79SfeuGt5E5y2ikR20SYsPqaSYhXO6RnAnf8px3mJt26b Qp48ymOc+CPbhyxeopWUClpnS0qjRzXwXKMj1MlyPCdoqwe5+XwMehJ9Wx8NsakF ScWi78DTOYGTJWqO6AX4/p+OvW5VIebhbnjqaN3ekuHjIoiKN+v9b7WJzTSRI0dr NRgJLi3PWqEgs+yWVW2j22ZI2WsTwMZ/AGUkrzCcwSlNgTr/X5KspNC8G2Z/GE9V gnkMdeOj7ykhIG1VYvpViBow5uamv9GeP/gTcX7757b++EeuouXdQhN4an2HVe/c PvZsnA46nKtfuKEhBY25rW/y5hMnlt0sKNC8bNB1mBgi2R+DYYppgipaBekP5fDg SPMsmBf0KKGcZ8hmw/r0sazroSWli8aWOINnj7450aZcFDdOyYClnnV+JPSZawOV kguqpchBfECovscztNTMfGw1wmWRS+ZuXzHPOZAm8+MTI7Kb6+uEDwxbbl+w4IKQ CasiW1SZa4Eu/fxWUsUhb+CmTXsBBjE2rCysn4Sj76zc/ShwV2Lyun3On9J24Upy 7EmrGAotaif4gjQgoBBcIeOpMu8nClJQcqCxkKf3bA+mUpnweQn05NJUBfAjzs3j Vk6Att4dtvF/dJA7WbaZ6tOJ+L/CXaR/LEjWXVLZ4OfJZFlVc/c= =jo+t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nOaLbAR3I8dSo2LgGhibqEkeMeGtE6bFz--