From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2C0B138334 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:36:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 926B4E084A; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:36:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53A0DE0849 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:36:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2001:4dd3:6b09:0:e5cc:5309:cdb:a741] (2001-4dd3-6b09-0-e5cc-5309-cdb-a741.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de [IPv6:2001:4dd3:6b09:0:e5cc:5309:cdb:a741]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: whissi) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5563346F98 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:36:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Council demands on maintainers & council legal liability To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <20190615124220.fcf0c08b22481d5bc6c2dbe0@gentoo.org> From: Thomas Deutschmann Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=whissi@gentoo.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFc4iggBEACg/drq2pkXyE0mO7cqfaH5UX9D2A8uaBWHcgVPZdf+bVlc7gT1b/TJgFBO yCecB1j9ReWWAE55nwraFL7+5XofRnwVzC3PglN/M/F02fudCeEkFfDtH65DZ67LV0QqXOZ7 e2aqD1NxJM1ydcehIoxgESiv8ctMCcb5Jui2A7vddxEBouQqJKDVqXqANEiBrtd0x4+noRC3 07BN80SgUiwuSJp8Y9+LSdKWGxiDxFAQygDlLWu1QIOg2PUjrM1ZtKCii8IcbnhsEPZj0jcQ f/omIHaksyfMdx6lHfSUZzzLQm41nhWlgYUxzW4D8Nh+ka51FIIWRWwNJTXQNpU8s32AT+rr K2hyNY0F+hnCRc0gUJtAACPZYNYNMlTCIb5yLKo5qoRKcHkAI3vAPEsPO8nmpYaxhI+9PwWJ 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X-Archives-Salt: 88407090-04ae-4d00-acae-1ca5b00b54a0 X-Archives-Hash: d967ba6147525d2c8a62ba1d5cbf83e6 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HqZ9sTNsBullYQQQWwYq3axFW5ShsoCzh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="KXuxfcnvh6iQ3ol6zLDMI0vixAKm25ie4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Thomas Deutschmann To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: <41c7f00e-363b-8fa1-195c-3973b9e8b0b6@gentoo.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Council demands on maintainers & council legal liability References: <20190615124220.fcf0c08b22481d5bc6c2dbe0@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: --KXuxfcnvh6iQ3ol6zLDMI0vixAKm25ie4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2019-07-04 04:14, Robin H. Johnson wrote: > I realize that there is only a short period left in the election, but > I've been busy with IRL issues, and mgorny's trustee manifesto [1] ascr= ibed > something to the Council members that concerned me; there's one > additional good question for the Council that I'll close with. >=20 > 1. Points 1a&1c of mgorny's manifesto imply that the council can > unilaterally prevent support of any given package in Gentoo, and > basically remove the package from the distribution. >=20 > This is despite any developers that may wish to support the package.= >=20 > What's your opinion of the council using this offensively against > packages? As a hypothetical, say systemd-ng comes about, with an eve= n > worse opinionated choices than those presently in systemd. Should th= e > council be able to force support for openrc & systemd stop? My understanding of the council is, that the council itself is 'passive' and isn't responsible for developing/pushing new visions/ideas just because it is the council. That means that the council, representing the community, will *only* vote on behalf of the community on motions the community brought up. Of course because any council member is also part of the community, council members can start a motion like any other community member. But it will happen without any council hat and everything must follow the same rules/process (mailing lists...). Regarding the specific example: At the moment, and I don't see this changing, any developer is free to do whatever they want to do in Gentoo as long as they don't break things and follow Gentoo rules. So if there will be a new init system and someone wants to support that, he/she is free to do that (as long as he/she is able to do that across whole repository without violating Gentoo rules (like QA...). tl;dr "As long as maintainer isn't doing something crazy"). Only if someone else within community will create a motion that the proposition should be stopped for $reasons this will become topic for council. And after following the process, council member will finally have decide on that motion. Regarding 1c: It's the money of the foundation. At the moment, council has no rights to tell foundation how they have to spend the money. As long as foundation won't change that (for example they could at least give council one vote for funding requests), we don't really need to talk about this. For the records: When I read mgorny's statement I got a different message in first place. Do you remind the sys-firmware/intel-microcode license hick hack around ~2018-08-23? As maintainer and as a person with some insights I *knew* that Intel was going to revert that license change. Therefore I didn't want to rev bump package for just a few hours or days to avoid causing unnecessary work for all of us, including Gentoo users. What happened? A trustee went forward and did that change on behalf of trustees ("copyright is trustee territory") against my will [1]. A few hours later, as I had 'predicted', Intel finally publicly announced that the license change will be reverted and I was able to revert that commit [2]. The message I got from reading mgorny's *Trustee* manifesto is, that he doesn't like such an interference (which will bring us to your second question). > 2. As an additional point, can you try to give your version of a simple= > statement on the legal liabilities that the Council as a whole, and > the Council members as individuals, have for their actions? At the moment, council has zero legal liabilities. That's because council has no legal body. In Gentoo, only the Gentoo foundation has a legal body. But to my knowledge, foundation doesn't even mention council in any legal document, i.e. council doesn't exist from foundation's POV (council is only tolerated) so council currently doesn't have any official position with legal liabilities. With this in mind, sure, as trustee with legal obligations for the foundation no one else has, I understand that you sometimes believe you must cover your 'ass' because foundation will hold you responsible for any damage you may cause (this will include damages you don't cause in first place but could have prevented). Regarding my example with intel-microcode package: If you as trustee really believe that Gentoo foundation could be in *real trouble* due to that license violation... you have to do your thing because if you are right and didn't do your job, you can be sure that foundation will try to get their money back from you... assuming board won't get approval of the actions). See also: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [1] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/commit/?id=3D933df6 [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/commit/?id=3Ddb0abe --=20 Regards, Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5 --KXuxfcnvh6iQ3ol6zLDMI0vixAKm25ie4-- --HqZ9sTNsBullYQQQWwYq3axFW5ShsoCzh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGTBAEBCgB9FiEEExKRzo+LDXJgXHuURObr3Jv2BVkFAl0eANlfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDEz MTI5MUNFOEY4QjBENzI2MDVDN0I5NDQ0RTZFQkRDOUJGNjA1NTkACgkQRObr3Jv2 BVkiVAf5AZC+XsXeM+gioxqVFX5apaHJx0vYSdjwzvFGq7yTVPCtYxsIV5UtRvBA FQCTrssja2DBk6xLbCBhazPooNKkl3MVTm+NKxi2QpVwzN2vvxSieUzwwuwbfv+1 G6q2J/7CrfIn8045dYKZRgvIKy+rXE4jvQH3SvHVilPDuy/NzMNbV35ZdZpM5ctH YHr+mqj3Chd3k9im9JGcHT4vEU+/3pOzDvzSAnuyj7EGgr8bje6HtEwbfBxhqymP aiIK/qEQwe+/0S/3nbvI7GvoKAMzE+kangDEU9w/ZBoJeLAQlRbd7kBgy6U8Tfib LK5SBinp6E8e/Zh/T/PhkI2APFpM8w== =iJbY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HqZ9sTNsBullYQQQWwYq3axFW5ShsoCzh--