[gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Alec Warner]

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Dear Gentoo Community,

I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for
Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is
to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any);
and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in
infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on
Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can
assist the development of Gentoo?

Some ideas might be:
 - Host a Gentoo Conference.
 - Host a bug-bounty program.
 - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
 - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
projects.

Thanks,

-Alec
President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.

[0]
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
[1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Raymond Jennings]

Honestly, I would like to see the foundation trustees maintain a
higher level of communication with the rest of the project, especially
comrel, council, infra, recruiting, etc.

One thing that distresses me to no end is the profound lack of respect
given to the foundation and its mission, to the point where I've seen
people try to bypass the foundation entirely on financial matters, as
well as show open disregard for the foundation's mission, and talk has
been had of having the foundation itself disbanded.

I want the foundation to have more involvement in gentoo, beyond just
the paperwork.
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:47 AM Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Gentoo Community,
>
> I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any); and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can assist the development of Gentoo?
>
> Some ideas might be:
>  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
>  - Host a bug-bounty program.
>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
>  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious projects.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Alec
> President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
>
> [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Richard Yao]

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Honestly, I would like to see the foundation trustees maintain a
> higher level of communication with the rest of the project, especially
> comrel, council, infra, recruiting, etc.
> 
> One thing that distresses me to no end is the profound lack of respect
> given to the foundation and its mission, to the point where I've seen
> people try to bypass the foundation entirely on financial matters, as
> well as show open disregard for the foundation's mission, and talk has
> been had of having the foundation itself disbanded.
> 
> I want the foundation to have more involvement in gentoo, beyond just
> the paperwork.
>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:47 AM Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Gentoo Community,
>> 
>> I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any); and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can assist the development of Gentoo?
>> 
>> Some ideas might be:
>> - Host a Gentoo Conference.
Yes, please. Debian and Fedora both have these. We really ought to have one too.
>> - Host a bug-bounty program.
This would need to be restricted to critical bugs. Otherwise, it would drain the foundation treasury very quickly. We also would need to restrict this to non-developers, again to avoid draining the treasury.
>> - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
This is good. I like it. The Yocto project has been winning mindshare from us because we simply don’t show up at conferences. Showing up at conferences would go a long way toward addressing this.
>> - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious projects.
Like RISC-V support? The problem here is that we need volunteers. We already have the ability to file funding requests, but ENOTIME keeps people from working on such things. I think the previous idea would help here in terms of growing the community so that we have volunteers to work on these things.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -Alec
>> President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
>> 
>> [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
>> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent
> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Richard Yao]

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Honestly, I would like to see the foundation trustees maintain a
>> higher level of communication with the rest of the project, especially
>> comrel, council, infra, recruiting, etc.
>> 
>> One thing that distresses me to no end is the profound lack of respect
>> given to the foundation and its mission, to the point where I've seen
>> people try to bypass the foundation entirely on financial matters, as
>> well as show open disregard for the foundation's mission, and talk has
>> been had of having the foundation itself disbanded.
>> 
>> I want the foundation to have more involvement in gentoo, beyond just
>> the paperwork.
>>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:47 AM Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Gentoo Community,
>>> 
>>> I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any); and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can assist the development of Gentoo?
>>> 
>>> Some ideas might be:
>>> - Host a Gentoo Conference.
> Yes, please. Debian and Fedora both have these. We really ought to have one too.
To be clear, I am not suggesting this as a “me-too” thing. I am interested in it because I think it would be nice to have a meet and greet. We have never had one. It need not be annual. Maybe every 5 years would be a good compromise between seeing each other and not spending too much. The mini-conf others mentioned could also work for this. However, I recall that not many of us go, which makes it difficult to justify making the trip to Europe.
>>> - Host a bug-bounty program.
> This would need to be restricted to critical bugs. Otherwise, it would drain the foundation treasury very quickly. We also would need to restrict this to non-developers, again to avoid draining the treasury.
>>> - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
> This is good. I like it. The Yocto project has been winning mindshare from us because we simply don’t show up at conferences. Showing up at conferences would go a long way toward addressing this.
>>> - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious projects.
> Like RISC-V support? The problem here is that we need volunteers. We already have the ability to file funding requests, but ENOTIME keeps people from working on such things. I think the previous idea would help here in terms of growing the community so that we have volunteers to work on these things.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -Alec
>>> President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
>>> 
>>> [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
>>> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:32 PM Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> - Host a bug-bounty program.
> This would need to be restricted to critical bugs. Otherwise, it would drain the foundation treasury very quickly.

++

> We also would need to restrict this to non-developers, again to avoid draining the treasury.

Uh, how does it drain the treasury less if we pay the same amount of
money to a non-dev vs a dev?  Wouldn't that actually discourage
regular contributors from becoming devs, and potentially drive us to
have to pay for more bounties since less stuff is getting fixed for
free?

Bounties would have to be limited to what we really need and can
afford, but once you've gotten that far then there is really no reason
to restrict who can apply for them.  The goal is to fix the bug,
right?

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Richard Yao]

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:32 PM Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> - Host a bug-bounty program.
>> This would need to be restricted to critical bugs. Otherwise, it would drain the foundation treasury very quickly.
> 
> ++
> 
>> We also would need to restrict this to non-developers, again to avoid draining the treasury.
> 
> Uh, how does it drain the treasury less if we pay the same amount of
> money to a non-dev vs a dev?  Wouldn't that actually discourage
> regular contributors from becoming devs, and potentially drive us to
> have to pay for more bounties since less stuff is getting fixed for
> free?
Fair point.
> 
> Bounties would have to be limited to what we really need and can
> afford, but once you've gotten that far then there is really no reason
> to restrict who can apply for them.  The goal is to fix the bug,
> right?
I was concerned that people might end up getting paid for things that they would do anyway, but I guess if we are careful with what qualifies, then that would be okay.
> 
> -- 
> Rich
> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 07/09/18 02:47, Richard Yao wrote:
>
>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:32 PM Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Host a bug-bounty program.
>>> This would need to be restricted to critical bugs. Otherwise, it would drain the foundation treasury very quickly.
>> ++
>>
>>> We also would need to restrict this to non-developers, again to avoid draining the treasury.
>> Uh, how does it drain the treasury less if we pay the same amount of
>> money to a non-dev vs a dev?  Wouldn't that actually discourage
>> regular contributors from becoming devs, and potentially drive us to
>> have to pay for more bounties since less stuff is getting fixed for
>> free?
> Fair point.
>> Bounties would have to be limited to what we really need and can
>> afford, but once you've gotten that far then there is really no reason
>> to restrict who can apply for them.  The goal is to fix the bug,
>> right?
> I was concerned that people might end up getting paid for things that they would do anyway, but I guess if we are careful with what qualifies, then that would be okay.
>> -- 
>> Rich
>>
>
It would also be worth stipulating that any individual's 'bounty haul'
would be capped at a certain amount in a defined time period.
But these are relatively simple technical details ..

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 9/6/18 2:47 PM, Alec Warner wrote:
>  - Host a Gentoo Conference.

I would generally argue that visibility on existing conferences is
likely better cost/benefit than hosting large conferences on our own, in
particular given the geographically diverse membership.

That said, we already do this successfully with e.g gentoo miniconf;
very nice conference (thanks to those hosting it) and at relatively low
cost as track on other linux conferene (In case of others; I'm
specifically thinking of the prague ones).

We have from time to time talked about a day before/after FOSDEM as that
seems to be the largest single meeting point, but the idea, at least for
me, is mostly rejected as people are tired enough after such a large
conference and I don't see very much gain from it vs just the stand we
have today at substantially lower cost.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 15:14:51 +0200 Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 9/6/18 2:47 PM, Alec Warner wrote:
> >  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
> 
> I would generally argue that visibility on existing conferences is
> likely better cost/benefit than hosting large conferences on our own, in
> particular given the geographically diverse membership.

I fully support this motion. 

> That said, we already do this successfully with e.g gentoo miniconf;
> very nice conference (thanks to those hosting it) and at relatively low
> cost as track on other linux conferene (In case of others; I'm
> specifically thinking of the prague ones).

By the way, do we have any idea when a next one will took place?

> We have from time to time talked about a day before/after FOSDEM as that
> seems to be the largest single meeting point, but the idea, at least for
> me, is mostly rejected as people are tired enough after such a large
> conference and I don't see very much gain from it vs just the stand we
> have today at substantially lower cost.

IMO the main problem here is that an extra day will be a workday.
While visiting FOSDEM during weekend is easy for most attendees,
sacrificing an extra workday may be a problem.


Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Andrew Savchenko]

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Hi!

On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 08:47:05 -0400 Alec Warner wrote:
> Dear Gentoo Community,
> 
> I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
> Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
> Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for
> Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is
> to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any);
> and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in
> infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on
> Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can
> assist the development of Gentoo?
> 
> Some ideas might be:
>  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
>  - Host a bug-bounty program.
>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
>  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> projects.

First and foremost the Foundation should focus on its primary
goal: funding, its financial accounting and becoming non for profit
organization.

Current state of the Foundation's bookkeeping is concerning: we have
not seen final annual financial report for years. Good news that
finally preliminary reports are published (thanks robbat2!), but
they are not final and there is still a lot of work to do.

Tax status is unclear (it was discussed earlier that the Foundation
may have to pay quite sufficient tax as a penalty for lousy
accounting).

And the Foundation still lacks non for profit official status.

Lack of human resources is a long-standing problem for the
Foundation and embracing more goals while failing with the critical
ones is an unwise idea.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko
Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Alec Warner]

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On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:36 AM Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 08:47:05 -0400 Alec Warner wrote:
> > Dear Gentoo Community,
> >
> > I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
> > Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
> > Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding
> for
> > Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President
> is
> > to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if
> any);
> > and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in
> > infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions
> on
> > Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation
> can
> > assist the development of Gentoo?
> >
> > Some ideas might be:
> >  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
> >  - Host a bug-bounty program.
> >  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry
> conferences.
> >  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> > projects.
>
> First and foremost the Foundation should focus on its primary
> goal: funding, its financial accounting and becoming non for profit
> organization.
>

> Current state of the Foundation's bookkeeping is concerning: we have
> not seen final annual financial report for years. Good news that
> finally preliminary reports are published (thanks robbat2!), but
> they are not final and there is still a lot of work to do.
>
> Tax status is unclear (it was discussed earlier that the Foundation
> may have to pay quite sufficient tax as a penalty for lousy
> accounting).
>
> And the Foundation still lacks non for profit official status.
>
> Lack of human resources is a long-standing problem for the
> Foundation and embracing more goals while failing with the critical
> ones is an unwise idea.
>


First off, I 100% agree we should do the financial accounting. Consider it
my first priority.

Regarding the funding; the main thrust of this thread is basically deciding
how much funding is enough; We have a bunch of money. Its expected that
post-finance cleanup we will still have money leftover; and we don't spend
very much money today. So given that, what could we spend money on? How
could the foundation put its funds to good use in its mission? That is the
question I'm trying to get input on; I think the answer in many ways
impacts what kind of financial plan we have for the Foundation in 2019 /
2020.

The foundation is already a not-for-profit organization. Did you perhaps
mean a *tax-exempt* not for profit, and if so, why do you think we should
be a tax-exempt nonprofit?

-A


>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 09/06/2018 11:52 AM, Alec Warner wrote:
> 
> The foundation is already a not-for-profit organization. Did you perhaps
> mean a *tax-exempt* not for profit, and if so, why do you think we should
> be a tax-exempt nonprofit?
> 

For starters, tax-exempt organizations are exempt from paying taxes =)

More seriously, a lot of programs like Amazon Smile require their
participating organizations to be 501(c)(3). Right now I send that money
to the FSF, and Amazon tells me they've made $11,000 over the past few
years via donations.

As for how to spend the money: paying people to fix bugs is unexciting,
but it's probably the idea with the best return on investment.

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Raymond Jennings]

I would also like to point out that becoming a non profit and making
donations tax deductible for donors could sweeten the pot when it
comes to people wanting to contribute financially.
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:32 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On 09/06/2018 11:52 AM, Alec Warner wrote:
> >
> > The foundation is already a not-for-profit organization. Did you perhaps
> > mean a *tax-exempt* not for profit, and if so, why do you think we should
> > be a tax-exempt nonprofit?
> >
>
> For starters, tax-exempt organizations are exempt from paying taxes =)
>
> More seriously, a lot of programs like Amazon Smile require their
> participating organizations to be 501(c)(3). Right now I send that money
> to the FSF, and Amazon tells me they've made $11,000 over the past few
> years via donations.
>
> As for how to spend the money: paying people to fix bugs is unexciting,
> but it's probably the idea with the best return on investment.
>

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Alec Warner]

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On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:32 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 09/06/2018 11:52 AM, Alec Warner wrote:
> >
> > The foundation is already a not-for-profit organization. Did you perhaps
> > mean a *tax-exempt* not for profit, and if so, why do you think we should
> > be a tax-exempt nonprofit?
> >
>
> For starters, tax-exempt organizations are exempt from paying taxes =)
>
> More seriously, a lot of programs like Amazon Smile require their
> participating organizations to be 501(c)(3). Right now I send that money
> to the FSF, and Amazon tells me they've made $11,000 over the past few
> years via donations.
>

There is a hidden premise here; that the Gentoo Foundation Inc. needs to
raise more money to fund its activities. I'm not entirely convinced of
this; our expenses are fairly low and we have adequately raised funds
irrespective of the Foundation's tax-exempt status in the past.

This is perhaps part II of the thread though. If there is clear demand for
the Foundation to spend money, then it becomes a signal that we should
improve our ability to fund raise and it improves the argument to do all
the necessary paperwork to be a tax-exempt organization; the idea being we
can activate additional fundraising channels. The current signal for funds
is funding requests, which are rare, so the Foundation has not sought more
money in the past; pretty much all of our fundraising is ad hoc.

-A


>
> As for how to spend the money: paying people to fix bugs is unexciting,
> but it's probably the idea with the best return on investment.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Yury German]

> 
> More seriously, a lot of programs like Amazon Smile require their
> participating organizations to be 501(c)(3). Right now I send that money
> to the FSF, and Amazon tells me they've made $11,000 over the past few
> years via donations.


We really really (a few more really’s) need a 501 (c ). For example the company I work for donates X amount of $$$ for every hour that I spend on Gentoo. Now I am donating to someone else, where they money could go to Gentoo when it is an official 501 ( C ) charity. 

Blue Knight

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 07/09/18 03:46, Yury German wrote:
>> More seriously, a lot of programs like Amazon Smile require their
>> participating organizations to be 501(c)(3). Right now I send that money
>> to the FSF, and Amazon tells me they've made $11,000 over the past few
>> years via donations.
>
> We really really (a few more really’s) need a 501 (c ). For example the company I work for donates X amount of $$$ for every hour that I spend on Gentoo. Now I am donating to someone else, where they money could go to Gentoo when it is an official 501 ( C ) charity. 
>
> Blue Knight
I am absolutely no expert on these matters, but I am lead to believe
that Gentoo was striving for a 501(c)(6) non-profit, rather than a
501(c)(3) tax-exempt non-profit. I'm not sure whether these help/hinder
your company's efforts, but that is what I understand -should- be the
case with regards to the Gentoo 'end' of things.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 11:52:55 -0400 Alec Warner wrote:
[...]
> First off, I 100% agree we should do the financial accounting. Consider it
> my first priority.

Excellent.

> Regarding the funding; the main thrust of this thread is basically deciding
> how much funding is enough; We have a bunch of money. Its expected that
> post-finance cleanup we will still have money leftover; and we don't spend
> very much money today. So given that, what could we spend money on? How
> could the foundation put its funds to good use in its mission? That is the
> question I'm trying to get input on; I think the answer in many ways
> impacts what kind of financial plan we have for the Foundation in 2019 /
> 2020.
> 
> The foundation is already a not-for-profit organization. Did you perhaps
> mean a *tax-exempt* not for profit, and if so, why do you think we should
> be a tax-exempt nonprofit?

I mean tax exmeption for donators, this motivates people to donate
more.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 06/09/18 13:47, Alec Warner wrote:
> Dear Gentoo Community,
>
> I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
> Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
> Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides
> funding for Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my
> job as President is to determine what additional activities the
> Foundation can pursue (if any); and to determine how the Foundation
> can improve Gentoo by investing in infrastructure, while still meeting
> the spirit of the other restrictions on Foundation activities[1]. So
> community, how do you think the Foundation can assist the development
> of Gentoo?
>
> Some ideas might be:
>  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
>  - Host a bug-bounty program.
>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
>  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> projects.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Alec
> President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
>
> [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent
Just saying, but you might wanna throw this out a little bit wider, if
truly addressing the 'real' community as opposed to the group of devs
commonly referred to as the "gentoo community" (both non-caps).

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Matthew Thode]

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On 18-09-06 08:47:05, Alec Warner wrote:
> Dear Gentoo Community,
> 
> I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
> Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
> Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for
> Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is
> to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any);
> and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in
> infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on
> Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can
> assist the development of Gentoo?
> 
> Some ideas might be:
>  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
>  - Host a bug-bounty program.
>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
>  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> projects.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Alec
> President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
> 
> [0]
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent

One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
bootstrapped faster.

I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.

A bug bounty program sounds neat, we could take input on bugs to target
from council I think.  (I personally would like to work on make gentoo
better support openstack-ansible :D).

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 11:22 AM Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
> too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
> bootstrapped faster.

If anything I think it would make more sense to try to decentralize
things more, to let individual contributors run more Gentoo services
off of their own stuff.  For example, it would be useful if a service
hosted on a dev machine could allow LDAP users to authenticate in a
secure manner, and so on.

The idea would be to make us less dependent on centrally-owned
infrastructure, so that it is less of a disaster if we lose access to
servers for whatever reason.  It would also reduce our operating
costs.  Services hosted by devs could still be FOSS with published
configurations/sources/etc so that they're easily replicated.

The biggest problem is that some of our key infra isn't easily
distributed, like bugzilla.  LDAP is of course by its nature a
centralized service (even with something more federated you need some
kind of standard of trust unless we do the web-of-trust thing - I
think that needs to be down the road).  Until somebody creates a
git-like distributed bugzilla solution we'll probably need some kind
of central repository, especially if we have private bugs such that we
can't just publish the database and let anybody replicate it.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 06/09/18 16:45, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 11:22 AM Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
>> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
>> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
>> too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
>> bootstrapped faster.
> If anything I think it would make more sense to try to decentralize
> things more, to let individual contributors run more Gentoo services
> off of their own stuff.  For example, it would be useful if a service
> hosted on a dev machine could allow LDAP users to authenticate in a
> secure manner, and so on.
>
> The idea would be to make us less dependent on centrally-owned
> infrastructure, so that it is less of a disaster if we lose access to
> servers for whatever reason.  It would also reduce our operating
> costs.  Services hosted by devs could still be FOSS with published
> configurations/sources/etc so that they're easily replicated.
>
> The biggest problem is that some of our key infra isn't easily
> distributed, like bugzilla.  LDAP is of course by its nature a
> centralized service (even with something more federated you need some
> kind of standard of trust unless we do the web-of-trust thing - I
> think that needs to be down the road).  Until somebody creates a
> git-like distributed bugzilla solution we'll probably need some kind
> of central repository, especially if we have private bugs such that we
> can't just publish the database and let anybody replicate it.
>
> --
> Rich
>
That's not how I understand LDAP .. I believe there is not only build-in
replication but redundancy too, so that, for instance, with logon
authorisation, you're not dependent on one single host .. that would be
a b1tch if it went down and thousands of users got locked out .. surely?!
And yes, as far as I know, there is a security mechanism built-in so any
Tom, Dick or Harry can't get the data without the relevant keys ...

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:14 PM M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
>
> That's not how I understand LDAP .. I believe there is not only build-in
> replication but redundancy too, so that, for instance, with logon
> authorisation, you're not dependent on one single host .. that would be
> a b1tch if it went down and thousands of users got locked out .. surely?!
> And yes, as far as I know, there is a security mechanism built-in so any
> Tom, Dick or Harry can't get the data without the relevant keys ...

It is centralized in the sense that you're trusting a central
authority to maintain it.  It was just an example of the sort of
service that isn't easy to decentralize (PKI problem in general), much
like a lot of the tree-signing discussions, but at least those have
the advantage of sitting on git which is by itself easy to
decentralize.

And this isn't intended as some kind of Gentoo-politics stance.  One
issue with having one legal entity own all our stuff is that we don't
control the law.  If somebody sues Gentoo and wins, they could be
awarded all our infra, and that would be pretty painful to recover
from right now.  Maybe the infra team is legally bound by
confidentiality to "Gentoo" (aka SCO or whoever sued us) so they can't
even replicate the data on new servers.

It isn't an easy thing, and I'm not suggesting holding other things
up, but I think in general a community-based org is better off if it
can actually be run by the community.  If we happen to run the infra
on central stuff it isn't as much of a problem if all the data is
published/etc so that anybody can just fork the whole thing.  If this
is done before any lawsuits/etc happen then there is no way to stop
it.  In an ideal world there would be a wiki page on how to roll your
own Gentoo infra.

I don't want to sidetrack the thread further.  I just think that
focusing more on the bazaar might work out long-term better than
building a better cathedral, since we aren't Redhat.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Michał Górny]

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On Thu, 2018-09-06 at 10:22 -0500, Matthew Thode wrote:
> On 18-09-06 08:47:05, Alec Warner wrote:
> > Dear Gentoo Community,
> > 
> > I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
> > Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
> > Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for
> > Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is
> > to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any);
> > and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in
> > infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on
> > Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can
> > assist the development of Gentoo?
> > 
> > Some ideas might be:
> >  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
> >  - Host a bug-bounty program.
> >  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
> >  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> > projects.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > -Alec
> > President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
> > 
> > [0]
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
> > [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent
> 
> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
> too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
> bootstrapped faster.
> 
> I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
> I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.
> 
> A bug bounty program sounds neat, we could take input on bugs to target
> from council I think.  (I personally would like to work on make gentoo
> better support openstack-ansible :D).
> 

It would be nice to also have an official way to quickly start off full
up-to-date system images, possibly in multiple variants.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Matthew Thode]

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On 18-09-06 17:52:56, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-09-06 at 10:22 -0500, Matthew Thode wrote:
> > On 18-09-06 08:47:05, Alec Warner wrote:
> > > Dear Gentoo Community,
> > > 
> > > I have recently become the President of the Gentoo Foundation Inc. The
> > > Foundation's documents[0] provide fairly terse guidance on how the
> > > Foundation is to be operated. The Foundation currently provides funding for
> > > Gentoo Infrastructure, and very little else. Part of my job as President is
> > > to determine what additional activities the Foundation can pursue (if any);
> > > and to determine how the Foundation can improve Gentoo by investing in
> > > infrastructure, while still meeting the spirit of the other restrictions on
> > > Foundation activities[1]. So community, how do you think the Foundation can
> > > assist the development of Gentoo?
> > > 
> > > Some ideas might be:
> > >  - Host a Gentoo Conference.
> > >  - Host a bug-bounty program.
> > >  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
> > >  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> > > projects.
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > -Alec
> > > President, Gentoo Foundation Inc.
> > > 
> > > [0]
> > > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Tasks_of_the_Gentoo_Foundation
> > > [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Gentoo_is_independent
> > 
> > One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
> > Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
> > devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
> > too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
> > bootstrapped faster.
> > 
> > I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
> > I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.
> > 
> > A bug bounty program sounds neat, we could take input on bugs to target
> > from council I think.  (I personally would like to work on make gentoo
> > better support openstack-ansible :D).
> > 
> 
> It would be nice to also have an official way to quickly start off full
> up-to-date system images, possibly in multiple variants.
> 

I'm kinda doing that somewhat with my openstack-images, they are just
guest images though http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/amd64/openstack/
My process could easilly be modified to have a more generic image (just
don't install glean).  More complex images could be done too via install
scripts or the running of puppet/ansible to set up services and the
like.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Yury German]

>> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
>> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
>> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
>> too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
>> bootstrapped faster.
>> 
>> I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
>> I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.
>> 
>> A bug bounty program sounds neat, we could take input on bugs to target
>> from council I think.  (I personally would like to work on make gentoo
>> better support openstack-ansible :D).
>> 
> 
> It would be nice to also have an official way to quickly start off full
> up-to-date system images, possibly in multiple variants.


So I have been running an unofficial binhost server for a while until my provider had problems. 
It helps a lot to have it especially for architectures that are not processor front loaded (arm v6 and v7 / arm64). 

What prevents us from running an Official binhost? Do we really need Foundation approval (nothing against Foundation).
It would just be forming an official project would’t it?

BlueKnight

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Alec Warner]

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On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:03 PM Yury German <blueknight@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
>
> >> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
> >> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
> >> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
> >> too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
> >> bootstrapped faster.
> >>
> >> I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
> >> I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.
> >>
> >> A bug bounty program sounds neat, we could take input on bugs to target
> >> from council I think.  (I personally would like to work on make gentoo
> >> better support openstack-ansible :D).
> >>
> >
> > It would be nice to also have an official way to quickly start off full
> > up-to-date system images, possibly in multiple variants.
>
>
> So I have been running an unofficial binhost server for a while until my
> provider had problems.
> It helps a lot to have it especially for architectures that are not
> processor front loaded (arm v6 and v7 / arm64).
>
> What prevents us from running an Official binhost? Do we really need
> Foundation approval (nothing against Foundation).
> It would just be forming an official project would’t it?
>

I suspect there are some technical challenges (its similar to distfiles
hosting in terms of proving the binpkgs are good, requiring signed metadata
so clients can verify and so on.) From the Foundation PoV no approval is
required to run a binhost; just people to set it up and to submit a funding
request.

-A


>
> BlueKnight
>
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Matthew Thode]

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On 18-09-06 14:35:18, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:03 PM Yury German <blueknight@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > >> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
> > >> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
> > >> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
> > >> too.  Beyond that, running a binhost may be an idea, get people
> > >> bootstrapped faster.
> > >>
> > >> I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
> > >> I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.
> > >>
> > >> A bug bounty program sounds neat, we could take input on bugs to target
> > >> from council I think.  (I personally would like to work on make gentoo
> > >> better support openstack-ansible :D).
> > >>
> > >
> > > It would be nice to also have an official way to quickly start off full
> > > up-to-date system images, possibly in multiple variants.
> >
> >
> > So I have been running an unofficial binhost server for a while until my
> > provider had problems.
> > It helps a lot to have it especially for architectures that are not
> > processor front loaded (arm v6 and v7 / arm64).
> >
> > What prevents us from running an Official binhost? Do we really need
> > Foundation approval (nothing against Foundation).
> > It would just be forming an official project would’t it?
> >
> 
> I suspect there are some technical challenges (its similar to distfiles
> hosting in terms of proving the binpkgs are good, requiring signed metadata
> so clients can verify and so on.) From the Foundation PoV no approval is
> required to run a binhost; just people to set it up and to submit a funding
> request.
> 
> -A
> 

Yep, this would just be funding for the build hosts and the like.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:02 PM Yury German <blueknight@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> What prevents us from running an Official binhost? Do we really need Foundation approval (nothing against Foundation).
> It would just be forming an official project would’t it?
>

Coordinating with infra probably wouldn't hurt, but per GLEP 39:
"Any dev may create a new project just by creating a new project page
on the wiki.gentoo.org (see [2]) and sending a Request For Comments
(RFC) e-mail to gentoo-dev. Note that this GLEP does not provide for a
way for the community at large to block a new project, even if the
comments are wholly negative."

So, kick it off.  You could host it on anything really to start.
Honestly, I think that is a good model anyway - try to make it
something infra could accept, but with hosting being more of a
commodity these days it might make more sense to just let devs do
their thing and then centralize it later.

Now, if you lack the necessary hardware and want somebody else to pay
for it all, that would require Foundation approval, assuming you want
them to do the paying.  The conditions on that are up to the trustees,
but I'd hope that they would require coordination with infra so that
we're not just handing out free servers...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Matthew Thode]

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On 18-09-06 14:37:07, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:02 PM Yury German <blueknight@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > What prevents us from running an Official binhost? Do we really need Foundation approval (nothing against Foundation).
> > It would just be forming an official project would’t it?
> >
> 
> Coordinating with infra probably wouldn't hurt, but per GLEP 39:
> "Any dev may create a new project just by creating a new project page
> on the wiki.gentoo.org (see [2]) and sending a Request For Comments
> (RFC) e-mail to gentoo-dev. Note that this GLEP does not provide for a
> way for the community at large to block a new project, even if the
> comments are wholly negative."
> 
> So, kick it off.  You could host it on anything really to start.
> Honestly, I think that is a good model anyway - try to make it
> something infra could accept, but with hosting being more of a
> commodity these days it might make more sense to just let devs do
> their thing and then centralize it later.
> 
> Now, if you lack the necessary hardware and want somebody else to pay
> for it all, that would require Foundation approval, assuming you want
> them to do the paying.  The conditions on that are up to the trustees,
> but I'd hope that they would require coordination with infra so that
> we're not just handing out free servers...
> 

Yep, the main reason I suggest infra's involvement at all is the compute
resources required along with mirroring.  Other than that anyone can do
it (I could publish my binhost stuff I do internally).

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 9/6/18 5:22 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
> I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.

The one that first springs to mind to me is CCC. I was visiting that one
in 2015 and all Gentoo had was a very hidden table without banner or
people manning it for others to visit, it basically was just a meeting
point for people associated with the project already. this could
probably be a good place to increase exposure in germany and people
going there doesn't really overlap with FOSDEM.

For US we've seen very different culture historically, not sure which
conferences would we worthwhile targetting for Gentoo there, but my
impression is that it is much more corporate based space, so that likely
requires other methods of attracting new devs and interested parties.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Paweł Hajdan, Jr.]

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On 06/09/2018 17:22, Matthew Thode wrote:
> One idea I had infra-wise was to expand the idea of our devspace.
> Increase the footprint of our virtualizatoin infra and (on request) give
> devs a VM for dev work.  Possibly even do some arm64 or ppc64 work there
> too. [...]

+1 ; easy access to powerful machines for Gentoo development would be great

Even better: improve security beyond having different accounts on the
same otherwise shared host. Virtualization / containerization could
really help there.

Similarly, making it easier for individual / small groups of people to
host infrastructure projects, possibly using Kubernetes or similar,
could encourage a lot of innovation in that space - such as web apps to
facilitate package maintenance, recruiting, etc. I'd stress the
importance of a _standardized_ way to deploy containerized (and securely
sandboxed) apps.

> I do agree with K_F in that targeting existing confrences would be nice.
> I think the two we'd have the most luck in would be fosdem scale.

+1 ; concentrating resources and effort sounds great

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Thomas Deutschmann]

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Hi,

can we please first sort the current tax issues and ensure that the
foundation will keep its non-profit status before we do anything else?

Once this is solved and foundation is back on track and healthy,
foundation should provide an up-to-date financial report of current
situation and future estimations. Based on this information we can decide

- if we have any money to spend

- if we can run a one-time only event before we run out of money

- or if we have a regular income we can rely on which will allow us to
do things which require recurrent spending or at least doing things regular


...but asking for ideas how we can spend money and things like that when
there's still a risk that we will lose non-profit status or lose our
current assets if IRS loses patience when we will miss next deadline
doesn't sound like the right order of priorities.


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:47 PM Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> ...but asking for ideas how we can spend money and things like that when
> there's still a risk that we will lose non-profit status or lose our
> current assets if IRS loses patience when we will miss next deadline
> doesn't sound like the right order of priorities.
>

++

The Gentoo Foundation is boring.  This isn't a problem that needs to
be solved.  We're pretty efficient money-wise, which means that
despite almost no effort going into fundraising and our legal
obligations, we're still able to pay our bills and stay under the
radar of regulators who could shut us down at any time.

When you only need a few thousand dollars a year to keep a global
organization operating that is a GOOD thing.  Let's focus on making
that stronger.  If our legal obligations are all caught up and we have
5 years of operating funds in the bank, maybe then we can start
thinking about spending more money.

If anything needs a bounty, it is an accountant...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Richard Yao]

> On Sep 7, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:47 PM Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>> ...but asking for ideas how we can spend money and things like that when
>> there's still a risk that we will lose non-profit status or lose our
>> current assets if IRS loses patience when we will miss next deadline
>> doesn't sound like the right order of priorities.
>> 
> 
> ++
> 
> The Gentoo Foundation is boring.  This isn't a problem that needs to
> be solved.  We're pretty efficient money-wise, which means that
> despite almost no effort going into fundraising and our legal
> obligations, we're still able to pay our bills and stay under the
> radar of regulators who could shut us down at any time.
> 
> When you only need a few thousand dollars a year to keep a global
> organization operating that is a GOOD thing.  Let's focus on making
> that stronger.  If our legal obligations are all caught up and we have
> 5 years of operating funds in the bank, maybe then we can start
> thinking about spending more money.
Frugality is a good thing. I strongly support the idea of ensuring that the foundation maintain a surplus of funds to last 5 years. However, I also support this discussion of whether the foundation should be spending money on more things than it has in the past. As far as I know, this has never been given proper attention. I think we should consider the opportunity cost of inaction and weight it against the cost of doing something.

I think that the foundation should have multiple thresholds at which any recurring expenditures that are created as a result of this discussion are restricted to exercise fiscal restraint. All unnecessary expenses should be suspended if the treasury drops below the projected operating expenses for the next 5 years at any point. “Luxuries” like a conference should be suspended at the 10 year threshold.

Fiscal restraint is important for the sake of ensuring that the foundation is never in a financial pinch caused by mismanagement. It also is to ensure that the foundation does not do anything to violate the trust placed in it by those making donations. It is very important that the foundation not do anything that makes donors feel that their donations were wasted.

Any spending that the foundation does will make Gentoo better off than had we not spent it and it should be kept within the foundation’s means to avoid a risk of running out of money. The value of getting people together face to face every few years to get the benefits cited by the mainline kernel is hard to quantify, but my feeling is that it is worthwhile if costs to the foundation are kept under $2000 and that it does risk not depleting funding below 10 years of operating expenses.

I should add that my support of the conference idea is because the mainline Linux kernel finds putting developers together face to face helps developer productivity. This is not so valuable that the foundation should spend some outrageous sum doing it. If the foundation does host a conference, perhaps it could raise money through tickets. For example, the OpenZFS developer summit was originally free, but it switched to charging $50 per non-speaker attending to cover the costs. There is also the example of the kernel engineering summit and LinuxCon being collocates, such that we could have a separate event for developers that is funded by the main conference.

Anyway, I think the merits of each idea should be weighed. I consider the long term fiscal viability of the foundation to be priority #1 in financial planning. I realized that my previous email did not make that clear. I had assumed that it was a given, but upon reflection, it really ought to be stated.
> 
> If anything needs a bounty, it is an accountant...
This is a good point. I think this should be prioritized over other ideas.
> 
> -- 
> Rich
> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Richard Yao]

> On Sep 7, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:47 PM Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...but asking for ideas how we can spend money and things like that when
>>> there's still a risk that we will lose non-profit status or lose our
>>> current assets if IRS loses patience when we will miss next deadline
>>> doesn't sound like the right order of priorities.
>>> 
>> 
>> ++
>> 
>> The Gentoo Foundation is boring.  This isn't a problem that needs to
>> be solved.  We're pretty efficient money-wise, which means that
>> despite almost no effort going into fundraising and our legal
>> obligations, we're still able to pay our bills and stay under the
>> radar of regulators who could shut us down at any time.
>> 
>> When you only need a few thousand dollars a year to keep a global
>> organization operating that is a GOOD thing.  Let's focus on making
>> that stronger.  If our legal obligations are all caught up and we have
>> 5 years of operating funds in the bank, maybe then we can start
>> thinking about spending more money.
> Frugality is a good thing. I strongly support the idea of ensuring that the foundation maintain a surplus of funds to last 5 years. However, I also support this discussion of whether the foundation should be spending money on more things than it has in the past. As far as I know, this has never been given proper attention. I think we should consider the opportunity cost of inaction and weight it against the cost of doing something.
> 
> I think that the foundation should have multiple thresholds at which any recurring expenditures that are created as a result of this discussion are restricted to exercise fiscal restraint. All unnecessary expenses should be suspended if the treasury drops below the projected operating expenses for the next 5 years at any point. “Luxuries” like a conference should be suspended at the 10 year threshold.
> 
> Fiscal restraint is important for the sake of ensuring that the foundation is never in a financial pinch caused by mismanagement. It also is to ensure that the foundation does not do anything to violate the trust placed in it by those making donations. It is very important that the foundation not do anything that makes donors feel that their donations were wasted.
> 
> Any spending that the foundation does will make Gentoo better off than had we not spent it and it should be kept within the foundation’s means to avoid a risk of running out of money. The value of getting people together face to face every few years to get the benefits cited by the mainline kernel is hard to quantify, but my feeling is that it is worthwhile if costs to the foundation are kept under $2000 and that it does risk not depleting funding below 10 years of operating expenses.

I mispoke here. I meant to say:

It should be clear beforehand that any spending that the foundation does will make Gentoo better off than had it not occurred and it should be kept within the foundation’s means to avoid a risk of running out of money.

The error was caused by over-editing without a final proofread. My apologies for any confusion.
> 
> I should add that my support of the conference idea is because the mainline Linux kernel finds putting developers together face to face helps developer productivity. This is not so valuable that the foundation should spend some outrageous sum doing it. If the foundation does host a conference, perhaps it could raise money through tickets. For example, the OpenZFS developer summit was originally free, but it switched to charging $50 per non-speaker attending to cover the costs. There is also the example of the kernel engineering summit and LinuxCon being collocates, such that we could have a separate event for developers that is funded by the main conference.
> 
> Anyway, I think the merits of each idea should be weighed. I consider the long term fiscal viability of the foundation to be priority #1 in financial planning. I realized that my previous email did not make that clear. I had assumed that it was a given, but upon reflection, it really ought to be stated.
>> 
>> If anything needs a bounty, it is an accountant...
> This is a good point. I think this should be prioritized over other ideas.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Rich
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Richard Yao]

> On Sep 7, 2018, at 10:10 AM, Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Sep 7, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:47 PM Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ...but asking for ideas how we can spend money and things like that when
>>>> there's still a risk that we will lose non-profit status or lose our
>>>> current assets if IRS loses patience when we will miss next deadline
>>>> doesn't sound like the right order of priorities.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ++
>>> 
>>> The Gentoo Foundation is boring.  This isn't a problem that needs to
>>> be solved.  We're pretty efficient money-wise, which means that
>>> despite almost no effort going into fundraising and our legal
>>> obligations, we're still able to pay our bills and stay under the
>>> radar of regulators who could shut us down at any time.
>>> 
>>> When you only need a few thousand dollars a year to keep a global
>>> organization operating that is a GOOD thing.  Let's focus on making
>>> that stronger.  If our legal obligations are all caught up and we have
>>> 5 years of operating funds in the bank, maybe then we can start
>>> thinking about spending more money.
>> Frugality is a good thing. I strongly support the idea of ensuring that the foundation maintain a surplus of funds to last 5 years. However, I also support this discussion of whether the foundation should be spending money on more things than it has in the past. As far as I know, this has never been given proper attention. I think we should consider the opportunity cost of inaction and weight it against the cost of doing something.
>> 
>> I think that the foundation should have multiple thresholds at which any recurring expenditures that are created as a result of this discussion are restricted to exercise fiscal restraint. All unnecessary expenses should be suspended if the treasury drops below the projected operating expenses for the next 5 years at any point. “Luxuries” like a conference should be suspended at the 10 year threshold.
>> 
>> Fiscal restraint is important for the sake of ensuring that the foundation is never in a financial pinch caused by mismanagement. It also is to ensure that the foundation does not do anything to violate the trust placed in it by those making donations. It is very important that the foundation not do anything that makes donors feel that their donations were wasted.
>> 
>> Any spending that the foundation does will make Gentoo better off than had we not spent it and it should be kept within the foundation’s means to avoid a risk of running out of money. The value of getting people together face to face every few years to get the benefits cited by the mainline kernel is hard to quantify, but my feeling is that it is worthwhile if costs to the foundation are kept under $2000 and that it does risk not depleting funding below 10 years of operating expenses.
> 
> I mispoke here. I meant to say:
> 
> It should be clear beforehand that any spending that the foundation does will make Gentoo better off than had it not occurred and it should be kept within the foundation’s means to avoid a risk of running out of money.
> 
> The error was caused by over-editing without a final proofread. My apologies for any confusion.
>> 
>> I should add that my support of the conference idea is because the mainline Linux kernel finds putting developers together face to face helps developer productivity. This is not so valuable that the foundation should spend some outrageous sum doing it. If the foundation does host a conference, perhaps it could raise money through tickets. For example, the OpenZFS developer summit was originally free, but it switched to charging $50 per non-speaker attending to cover the costs. There is also the example of the kernel engineering summit and LinuxCon being collocates, such that we could have a separate event for developers that is funded by the main conference.
One more idea. Perhaps the foundation could do a kickstarter to raise funds for the first conference. The key point being that if a critical threshold is not reached, it will be cancelled and those funding it through ticket sales would keep their money.

I guess we could have additional rewards thresholds for higher ticket prices. Say some of us could donate time (in units of hours) to promise to work on a bug of the donors’ choice (preferably before the conference). This of course would be a limited quantity, but it could help fund travel for those that require financial assistance. I suspect that which people receive financial assistance should be kept confidential unless they wish to make it known because I believe that it is a sensitive matter.

That being said, I wish to keep an open mind on these things. I am open to being convinced that an idea for spending money that I like is a bad idea. If others decide that it is a bad idea without convincing me, I will respect that. I, like others here, want what is best for Gentoo. I have faith in the collective wisdom of others involved in the project. I accept the possibility that my thinking could be wrong.
>> Anyway, I think the merits of each idea should be weighed. I consider the long term fiscal viability of the foundation to be priority #1 in financial planning. I realized that my previous email did not make that clear. I had assumed that it was a given, but upon reflection, it really ought to be stated.
>>> 
>>> If anything needs a bounty, it is an accountant...
>> This is a good point. I think this should be prioritized over other ideas.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Rich
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Hi Alec, 

>  - Host a Gentoo Conference.

Makes no sense, I doubt we gather enough critical mass. We are much better off 
at general OSS conferences (like FOSDEM). An option might be an additional 
"Gentoo day" at such an event though.

>  - Host a bug-bounty program.

Nope. We have enough of them already. We need to fix them.

>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.

Kinda makes sense. Getting some industry sponsors aboard would be nice. That 
said, Gentoo's focus has been shifting from industry-oriented / USA more to 
OSS-enthusiast-oriented / Europe recently. So we need to be careful that this 
doesnt lead to conflicts.

>  - Invest significantly in Infrastructure spending to fund ambitious
> projects.

You need people who work on that first.

Suggestion: Found a tinderbox project, get toralf, kensington, zerochaos, 
mgorny, whoelse? on board, integrate this into one nice system with (for 
authorized users) point-and-click interfaces for bug reporting and public 
status web pages. *Then*, invest in fat hardware for it.

Our shortage is not money or infrastructire.
Our shortage is a) people, and b) cooperation.

Cheers, 
Andreas


-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer 
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 9/7/18 3:11 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry conferences.
> Kinda makes sense. Getting some industry sponsors aboard would be nice. That 
> said, Gentoo's focus has been shifting from industry-oriented / USA more to 
> OSS-enthusiast-oriented / Europe recently. So we need to be careful that this 
> doesnt lead to conflicts.
> 

We get these presentations for free at various conferences already, but
I'm a bit unsure about what "fund talks about" means in this context,
would it be purchasing stand place / sponsoring event so you also get
talking spot kind of thing?

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Freitag, 7. September 2018, 15:20:36 CEST schrieb Kristian Fiskerstrand:
> On 9/7/18 3:11 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> >>  - Fund talks about Gentoo development activities at industry
> >>  conferences.
> > 
> > Kinda makes sense. Getting some industry sponsors aboard would be nice.
> > That said, Gentoo's focus has been shifting from industry-oriented / USA
> > more to OSS-enthusiast-oriented / Europe recently. So we need to be
> > careful that this doesnt lead to conflicts.
> 
> We get these presentations for free at various conferences already, but
> I'm a bit unsure about what "fund talks about" means in this context,
> would it be purchasing stand place / sponsoring event so you also get
> talking spot kind of thing?

I guess this means dedicated industry workshops with an entrance fee too steep 
for the usual oss enthusiast.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer 
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 9/7/18 3:11 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Our shortage is not money or infrastructire.
> Our shortage is a) people, and b) cooperation.

Right, but that doesn't mean having the money available isn't important.
For one thing, the shortage of people can be helped by more attention
around Gentoo in various communities and that might involve spending
some money on PR where it makes sense -- but that also means having a
plan for the activities and organizing it properly to target the
appropriate people.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Looking for ways the Foundation can accomplish its mission.

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Freitag, 7. September 2018, 15:24:03 CEST schrieb Kristian Fiskerstrand:
> On 9/7/18 3:11 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > Our shortage is not money or infrastructire.
> > Our shortage is a) people, and b) cooperation.
> 
> Right, but that doesn't mean having the money available isn't important.
> For one thing, the shortage of people can be helped by more attention
> around Gentoo in various communities and that might involve spending
> some money on PR where it makes sense -- but that also means having a
> plan for the activities and organizing it properly to target the
> appropriate people.

No objections, of course...

I just wanted to express that it doesnt make sense to throw money at hardware 
that noone uses properly.


-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer 
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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