[gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care about nothing 
but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the distribution as a 
whole?

Because that's the impression I recently get on the mailing list, and I'm not 
really sure if it's worthwhile putting any more effort into it then.

<troll mode>
Maybe we should just discontinue any "Gentoo" branding, focus on the meta-
distribution side, and tell users "Yes there are a lot of excellent 
derivatives of our work, where things actually work together. You should 
install Sabayon, Funtoo, Exherbo, Pentoo, or whatever scratches your itch. 
They are based on (not "our work" but) the excellent work of our developers. 
Gentoo? Nah. That's just the raw package base. Don't use it directly."
</troll mode>

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Fabian Groffen]

Hi Andreas,

On 15-06-2013 13:50:03 +0200, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care about nothing 
> but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the distribution as a 
> whole?
> 
> Because that's the impression I recently get on the mailing list, and I'm not 
> really sure if it's worthwhile putting any more effort into it then.

In what way does this email do anything constructive (to this issue)?
Really, you do a great job, so why would you stop doing that?

My €0.02

Fabian


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 13:54:23 schrieb Fabian Groffen:
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> In what way does this email do anything constructive (to this issue)?
> Really, you do a great job, so why would you stop doing that?
> 
> My €0.02
> 
> Fabian

Well, we have debated about everything to death, and independent of the 
technical details and of the issue at hand it always boils down to the same 
non-technical points:

* Do you see yourself as "maintainer of package X", or do you see yourself as 
"maintainer of package X which is a part of Gentoo"?

* How many compromises are you willing to accept to provide the best user 
experience?

* How many compromises are you willing to accept to help your colleague 
developers?

In my personal opinion, it's worthwhile to cooperate and put effort into 
Gentoo to improve the distribution as a whole. It is NOT worthwhile to focus 
on isolated solutions, refuse to cooperate with others, and waste energy on 
turf wars.

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Michael Weber]

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On 06/15/2013 02:15 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 13:54:23 schrieb Fabian Groffen:
>> Hi Andreas,
>> 
>> In what way does this email do anything constructive (to this
>> issue)?
Stating an opinion, which I share.

> In my personal opinion, it's worthwhile to cooperate and put effort
> into Gentoo to improve the distribution as a whole. It is NOT
> worthwhile to focus on isolated solutions, refuse to cooperate with
> others, and waste energy on turf wars.
Thank you for this statement. 100% seriously.

   Michael

- -- 
Michael Weber
Gentoo Developer
web: https://xmw.de/
mailto: Michael Weber <xmw@gentoo.org>
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 6/15/13 5:15 AM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Well, we have debated about everything to death, and independent of the 
> technical details and of the issue at hand it always boils down to the same 
> non-technical points:

Thanks for raising this topic. I think this worthwhile, and I see Gentoo
(and any other distro or even FOSS project) as collaborative team effort.

Things you can do alone as an individual are rather limited IMHO.

> * Do you see yourself as "maintainer of package X", or do you see yourself as 
> "maintainer of package X which is a part of Gentoo"?

co-maintainer of package X which is a part of Gentoo. I'd like to thank
here my team-mates from the Gentoo Chromium team and every other Gentoo
developer who has contributed to the packages I maintain.

> * How many compromises are you willing to accept to provide the best user 
> experience?

I would not compromise 95% users' experience for a vocal minority users'
experience, or at a risk of the package becoming significantly harder to
test or maintain.

Other than that, I'm trying to be accommodating and flexible when
receiving feedback about packages I maintain.

> * How many compromises are you willing to accept to help your colleague 
> developers?

Similar thing here. I'm willing to respect decisions made according to
agreed-upon process even if I don't like them (except for really severe
cases), of course providing feedback as I see appropriate. I'm willing
to sacrifice my personal convenience if I know this is good for the
project as a whole.

> In my personal opinion, it's worthwhile to cooperate and put effort into 
> Gentoo to improve the distribution as a whole. It is NOT worthwhile to focus 
> on isolated solutions, refuse to cooperate with others, and waste energy on 
> turf wars.

+1

I also believe there will always be situations where goals or
requirements of various people clash, and we need to learn to deal with
them. Forks and other kinds of "isolated solutions" have their place,
but it's a last resort rather than the first reflex.

Refusing to cooperate or turf wars is actively hostile and harmful to
the project, and it is important for the health of our community not to
allow these behaviors.

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Sergey Popov]

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15.06.2013 16:15, Andreas K. Huettel пишет:
> Well, we have debated about everything to death, and independent of the 
> technical details and of the issue at hand it always boils down to the same 
> non-technical points:
> 
> * Do you see yourself as "maintainer of package X", or do you see yourself as 
> "maintainer of package X which is a part of Gentoo"?

Of course, "maintainer of package X which is a part of Gentoo". Cause we
maintain packages FOR a distribution. So we should cooperative if we
want to reach this goal.

> * How many compromises are you willing to accept to provide the best user 
> experience?

If things does not make maintaince process much harder - they are all
accepted.

> * How many compromises are you willing to accept to help your colleague 
> developers?

If developer(or user, it is not the point in this case) clearly explains
why this change is needed and provives good examples, where absence of
this change will be bad for our users(we work for users, first of all),
i see no problem in this change.

Of course, we should mention here 'dirty hack->workaround->proper
solution' stream, but i will skip it for now.

> In my personal opinion, it's worthwhile to cooperate and put effort into 
> Gentoo to improve the distribution as a whole. It is NOT worthwhile to focus 
> on isolated solutions, refuse to cooperate with others, and waste energy on 
> turf wars.

+1 for that.

-- 
Best regards, Sergey Popov
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Desktop-effects project lead
Gentoo Qt project lead


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Douglas Dunn]

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I think some people are blowing things out of proportion here. Times have
been more chaotic in the distant past than what we have going on now at
least in my 10 years with gentoo, but i gather that things are getting a
little heated here.

Maybe its time to expand dev-rel's authority, such as applying some basic
rules to all the devs.  Not saying people are doing these things but rules
like no cursing in official communiqué, no personal attacks, promises to
obey the decisions of the dev-rel arbitration. And perhaps give dev-rel
some ability to punnish the devs, suspending their privlidges or whatnot
for breaking the simple rules.

Mostly there shouldnt be this endless bickering.  If two maintainers cant
agree instead of an endless fight, they should just acknowledge that things
have reached an impass go to dev-rel and let them decide what is to happen,
maybe let them appeal to the lead of dev-rel and after that send an
official appeal to the council. But there is really no need for this
endless arguing about such small things.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
<dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care about nothing
> but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the distribution as a
> whole?
>
> Because that's the impression I recently get on the mailing list, and I'm not
> really sure if it's worthwhile putting any more effort into it then.

Some may say so, but the reality is that it has always been a united
effort - just not one in which everybody has a mailstop.

Honestly, I've only seen 2-3 devs really digging in their feet over
systemd units, and that isn't going to cause a total meltdown.  It
seems like the general problem of over possessive maintainers is more
widespread.  That manifests itself in a million papercuts that tend to
drive individuals nuts but we've generally weathered them.  I think
the solution there is a functioning devrel or other disciplinary body
with a faster time constant but lower amplitude.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Johannes Huber]

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Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 08:08:53 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
> 
> <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care about
> > nothing but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the
> > distribution as a whole?
> > 
> > Because that's the impression I recently get on the mailing list, and I'm
> > not really sure if it's worthwhile putting any more effort into it then.
> Some may say so, but the reality is that it has always been a united
> effort - just not one in which everybody has a mailstop.
> 
> Honestly, I've only seen 2-3 devs really digging in their feet over
> systemd units, and that isn't going to cause a total meltdown.  It
> seems like the general problem of over possessive maintainers is more
> widespread.  That manifests itself in a million papercuts that tend to
> drive individuals nuts but we've generally weathered them.  I think
> the solution there is a functioning devrel or other disciplinary body
> with a faster time constant but lower amplitude.
> 
> Rich

100 points for you to put the word systemd into the thread. Could we just stop 
to take over on every thread?

-- 
Johannes Huber (johu)
Gentoo Linux Developer / KDE Team
GPG Key ID F3CFD2BD

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:42:49 +0200
Johannes Huber <johu@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 08:08:53 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
> > 
> > <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care
> > > about nothing but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users
> > > or the distribution as a whole?
> > > 
> > > Because that's the impression I recently get on the mailing list,
> > > and I'm not really sure if it's worthwhile putting any more
> > > effort into it then.
> > Some may say so, but the reality is that it has always been a united
> > effort - just not one in which everybody has a mailstop.
> > 
> > Honestly, I've only seen 2-3 devs really digging in their feet over
> > systemd units, and that isn't going to cause a total meltdown.  It
> > seems like the general problem of over possessive maintainers is
> > more widespread.  That manifests itself in a million papercuts that
> > tend to drive individuals nuts but we've generally weathered them.
> > I think the solution there is a functioning devrel or other
> > disciplinary body with a faster time constant but lower amplitude.
> > 
> > Rich
> 
> 100 points for you to put the word systemd into the thread. Could we
> just stop to take over on every thread?
> 

Can we stop assuming this is a "take over" of a thread? It's an example.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Johannes Huber]

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Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 15:44:10 schrieb Tom Wijsman:
> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:42:49 +0200
> 
> Johannes Huber <johu@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 08:08:53 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
> > > 
> > > <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care
> > > > about nothing but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users
> > > > or the distribution as a whole?
> > > > 
> > > > Because that's the impression I recently get on the mailing list,
> > > > and I'm not really sure if it's worthwhile putting any more
> > > > effort into it then.
> > > 
> > > Some may say so, but the reality is that it has always been a united
> > > effort - just not one in which everybody has a mailstop.
> > > 
> > > Honestly, I've only seen 2-3 devs really digging in their feet over
> > > systemd units, and that isn't going to cause a total meltdown.  It
> > > seems like the general problem of over possessive maintainers is
> > > more widespread.  That manifests itself in a million papercuts that
> > > tend to drive individuals nuts but we've generally weathered them.
> > > I think the solution there is a functioning devrel or other
> > > disciplinary body with a faster time constant but lower amplitude.
> > > 
> > > Rich
> > 
> > 100 points for you to put the word systemd into the thread. Could we
> > just stop to take over on every thread?
> 
> Can we stop assuming this is a "take over" of a thread? It's an example.

Not assuming, proofed on -dev ml a lot. Thanks.

-- 
Johannes Huber (johu)
Gentoo Linux Developer / KDE Team
GPG Key ID F3CFD2BD

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 16:19:39 +0200
Johannes Huber <johu@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 15:44:10 schrieb Tom Wijsman:
> > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:42:49 +0200
> > 
> > Johannes Huber <johu@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > Am Samstag, 15. Juni 2013, 08:08:53 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> > > > Honestly, I've only seen 2-3 devs really digging in their feet
> > > > over systemd units, and that isn't going to cause a total
> > > > meltdown.  It seems like the general problem of over possessive
> > > > maintainers is more widespread.  That manifests itself in a
> > > > million papercuts that tend to drive individuals nuts but we've
> > > > generally weathered them. I think the solution there is a
> > > > functioning devrel or other disciplinary body with a faster
> > > > time constant but lower amplitude.
> > > 
> > > 100 points for you to put the word systemd into the thread. Could
> > > we just stop to take over on every thread?
> > 
> > Can we stop assuming this is a "take over" of a thread? It's an
> > example.
> 
> Not assuming, proofed on -dev ml a lot. Thanks.

Yet it is an example; so, it is still merely an assumption.

I'm yet to see this "take over" happen to this thread, there is none.

Your sub thread isn't constructive, it's provocative; stop it yourself.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Markos Chandras]

On 15 June 2013 12:50, Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care about nothing
> but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the distribution as a
> whole?
>

Gentoo is not a regular distribution. It is a meta-distribution. This
is because of the nature of the packages and the project structure.
What this means is that each project/herd is a well-defined,
independent, sell-contained entity which deals with a subject of
packages. Each project is free to do whatever it wants to do, without
having to justify its actions to anyone. You may complain as much you
want in the mailing list that eg postfix is terribly broken, deviated
from upstream, dev FooBar is non-cooperative, etc etc but in practice
nobody (except the net-mail members) can do anything to help you.
So yes, individual developers/project can do whatever. They may please
the users or they many not. Sad? yes. True? yes

The Council is supposed to somehow control inter-project
communications when the developers fail to do so, but this rarely
happens.

I suggest to take that into consideration during the upcoming Council
elections. If you don't like the current situation, be part of the
decision making. Yet another recycled thread in the mailing list will
certainly not help.

--
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Roy Bamford]

On 06/15/13 14:30:55, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On 15 June 2013 12:50, Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care
> about nothing
> > but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the
> distribution as a
> > whole?
> >
> 
> Gentoo is not a regular distribution. It is a meta-distribution. This
> is because of the nature of the packages and the project structure.
> What this means is that each project/herd is a well-defined,
> independent, sell-contained entity which deals with a subject of
> packages. Each project is free to do whatever it wants to do, without
> having to justify its actions to anyone. 
[snip]
> 
> --
> Regards,
> Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang
> 

I'll have a wee nibble here.
Before the council, there were the irregular meetings of the Top Level 
Project (TLP) leads. These meetings became so irregular, they 
eventually to all intents and purposes, ceased.  These meeting resolved 
the cross project issues.

Council was formed on the same basis.  Their terms of reference state 
that they are to arbitrate on matters brought to them, which inferrs 
that proactive leardship is not permitted.  Maybe that needs to be 
changed.


-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) an member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[William Hubbs]

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On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 05:08:25PM +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
> I'll have a wee nibble here.
> Before the council, there were the irregular meetings of the Top Level 
> Project (TLP) leads. These meetings became so irregular, they 
> eventually to all intents and purposes, ceased.  These meeting resolved 
> the cross project issues.
> 
> Council was formed on the same basis.  Their terms of reference state 
> that they are to arbitrate on matters brought to them, which inferrs 
> that proactive leardship is not permitted.  Maybe that needs to be 
> changed.

This is a tough one. If the council does start to become more proactive,
there would need to be a way to guard against the council stepping into
a project and dictating how that project will do things without fully
understanding the implications of their decision.

If the council is an arbitrator, it is up to the people involved to be
sure they bring as much information as possible before the council so
it can make an accurate decision.

William


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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:00 PM, William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
> This is a tough one. If the council does start to become more proactive,
> there would need to be a way to guard against the council stepping into
> a project and dictating how that project will do things without fully
> understanding the implications of their decision.
>

Honestly, I think the solution to this is to make sure that the
council is staffed with individuals who can be trusted not to do this.

However, there really is no difference between a council that needs to
have matters brought before it, and one which can act proactively.  If
ANYBODY can bring a matter to the council, then it will one way or
another end up looking into anything it wants to.

I think that issues are best solved by individuals first and foremost.
 However, it doesn't make sense to have battles going on for months
where there simply isn't agreement.  There are many situations where
almost any decision is better than no decision (an example comes to
mind but I won't bring it up as a distraction).

However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I do think the council should be
a little more active.  If council members have an opinion they can
state it on the lists, and allow themselves to be engaged a little on
it.  Likewise, the council doesn't HAVE to wait until a meeting to
make a decision, though if a matter can afford to wait doing so might
be wise.  Getting involved in discussion early isn't about fanning
flames/etc, but it is about letting everybody know where they stand,
and also letting arguments mature to a reasonable level before making
a decision (rather than putting them on hold for a few weeks, and then
restarting them when there is a request for more info).  Also, council
members can use their position to try to influence direction absent a
formal decision, and that need not be on-list.

One other thing - I don't intend to suggest that I'm not sympathetic
to the concerns of individuals as well.  I really hate that the online
thing often tends to depersonalize everything.  I just don't think we
can operate in a state of perpetual paralysis either - we'll never
reach 100% consensus on any decision.  There isn't a single Gentoo
developer I don't have respect for - all have given of their time and
energy and we're all better for it.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

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Andreas K. Huettel schrieb:
> 
> Is Gentoo really a loose association of individualists who care about
> nothing but their own stuff, and give a $(/%& about users or the
> distribution as a whole?

Of course many developers do care about more than their own turf. It is
just that they are not *required to care* if they don't want to, or policy
mandates that they must care.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 06/17/2013 12:15 PM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Of course many developers do care about more than their own turf. It is
> just that they are not *required to care* if they don't want to, or policy
> mandates that they must care.
> 
One of my favorite things about open source in general is that I get to
work on what I want to, failing that I get to work on what I feel I need
to work on most (whatever that means to me at the time).  There is no
policy, nor should there ever be, which would FORCE a FOSS developer to
work on something they don't want to.

That said, just because I don't care about systemd/eudev/pinkponies
doesn't give me any right to block it's support in the tree or even in
the packages I am primary maintainer of.  You want to add new xyz
blahblah support to one of my packages?  Go for it, if you don't break
my package I won't care (but the bugs with xyz blahblah may be
reassigned to the xyz blahblah team).

No one should have the right to tell me what I have to work on just like
I shouldn't have the right to tell anyone else not to work on something.
 Your freedom ends at the tip of my nose, and after that...

- -Zero

(just in case it doesn't read clearly this is a general response on the
topic not a scathing attack on chithead, it's really hard to completely
avoid speaking in 2nd person.)
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Re: [gentoo-project] Gentoo as a team effort

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

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Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina schrieb:
> (just in case it doesn't read clearly this is a general response on the 
> topic not a scathing attack on chithead, it's really hard to completely 
> avoid speaking in 2nd person.)

And before anybody wonders, "chithead" is not an attack either. It is my
IRC nick on freenode. :)


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
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