[gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Robin H. Johnson]

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To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
the Gentoo Foundation:

1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
   Foundation?
2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation
   look like?
3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
> the Gentoo Foundation:
> 
> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
>    Foundation?

The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
for good reasons.

> 2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation
>    look like?

As long as the foundation does it job and doesn't meddle in the running
of the distro I'm fine, but the foundation is there to support the distro.

> 3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?

I'm fond of having an own foundation rather than an umbrella org, but it
requires that it is properly run.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
> > the Gentoo Foundation:
> > 
> > 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
> >    Foundation?
> 
> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
> for good reasons.
> 

Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
taken?

> > 2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation
> >    look like?
> 
> As long as the foundation does it job and doesn't meddle in the running
> of the distro I'm fine, but the foundation is there to support the distro.
> 
> > 3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?
> 
> I'm fond of having an own foundation rather than an umbrella org, but it
> requires that it is properly run.
> 

Do you mind being more specific here as well?

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
>>> the Gentoo Foundation:
>>>
>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
>>>    Foundation?
>>
>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
>> for good reasons.
>>
> 
> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
> taken?

The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.

> 
>>> 2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation
>>>    look like?
>>
>> As long as the foundation does it job and doesn't meddle in the running
>> of the distro I'm fine, but the foundation is there to support the distro.
>>
>>> 3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?
>>
>> I'm fond of having an own foundation rather than an umbrella org, but it
>> requires that it is properly run.
>>
> 
> Do you mind being more specific here as well?

see above.


-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 6/27/19 12:03 AM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
>> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
>>>> the Gentoo Foundation:
>>>>
>>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
>>>>    Foundation?
>>>
>>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
>>> for good reasons.
>>>
>>
>> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
>> taken?
> 
> The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
> laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
> accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
> primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
> ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
> necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.

the other thing the foundation is responsible for is protecting
copyright, in this case there isn't a significant issue, but it needs to
keep track of, and defend against, others using the Gentoo brand for
various cases (since most of Gentoo Foundation IP is tied to the
logo/brand) and no anything related to the actual code (that belongs to
other copyright owners)


-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-06-27 00:03:16, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> > On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> >> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> >>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
> >>> the Gentoo Foundation:
> >>>
> >>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
> >>>    Foundation?
> >>
> >> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
> >> for good reasons.
> >>
> > 
> > Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
> > taken?
> 
> The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
> laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
> accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
> primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
> ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
> necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.
> 

True, though in our defense we were handed basically nothing and have
been picking up the pieces sense.  Good news is that we've found a firm
finally and have used them to get our status with the IRS.  Stuff beyond
that is in progress (not sure if it's right to vote for something so
expensive right before the trustee election).

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Matthew Thode]

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On 19-06-27 00:06:05, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 6/27/19 12:03 AM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> >> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> >>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> >>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
> >>>> the Gentoo Foundation:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
> >>>>    Foundation?
> >>>
> >>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
> >>> for good reasons.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
> >> taken?
> > 
> > The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
> > laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
> > accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
> > primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
> > ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
> > necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.
> 
> the other thing the foundation is responsible for is protecting
> copyright, in this case there isn't a significant issue, but it needs to
> keep track of, and defend against, others using the Gentoo brand for
> various cases (since most of Gentoo Foundation IP is tied to the
> logo/brand) and no anything related to the actual code (that belongs to
> other copyright owners)
> 

This one I think we have done well at, mainly sending C&D emails/letters
as needed (which it generally is not needed).

Beyond the above two points, as a follow on question.

1. How would you work to improve the relationship with the foundation?

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michael Everitt]

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On 26/06/19 23:03, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
>> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
>>>> the Gentoo Foundation:
>>>>
>>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
>>>>    Foundation?
>>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
>>> for good reasons.
>>>
>> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
>> taken?
> The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
> laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
> accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
> primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
> ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
> necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.
>
Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past on the
officers of the present? From what I understand, the present and recent
officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the shortcomings of
previous trustees, and to bang on about the status quo and that of previous
foundation officers is hardly either constructive nor helpful to rectifying
the present situation.
>>>> 2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation
>>>>    look like?
>>> As long as the foundation does it job and doesn't meddle in the running
>>> of the distro I'm fine, but the foundation is there to support the distro.
>>>
>>>> 3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?
>>> I'm fond of having an own foundation rather than an umbrella org, but it
>>> requires that it is properly run.
>>>
>> Do you mind being more specific here as well?
> see above.
>
>



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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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The question wasnt regarding the current board, but the historical relationship.
-------- Original message --------From: Michael Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> Date: 6/27/19  00:15  (GMT+01:00) To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation On 26/06/19 23:03, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:> On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:>> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:>>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:>>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around>>>> the Gentoo Foundation:>>>>>>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &>>>>    Foundation?>>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,>>> for good reasons.>>>>> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see>> taken?> The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the> laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,> accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The> primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to> ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the> necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.>Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past on theofficers of the present? From what I understand, the present and recentofficers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the shortcomings ofprevious trustees, and to bang on about the status quo and that of previousfoundation officers is hardly either constructive nor helpful to rectifyingthe present situation.>>>> 2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation>>>>    look like?>>> As long as the foundation does it job and doesn't meddle in the running>>> of the distro I'm fine, but the foundation is there to support the distro.>>>>>>> 3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?>>> I'm fond of having an own foundation rather than an umbrella org, but it>>> requires that it is properly run.>>>>> Do you mind being more specific here as well?> see above.>>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michael Everitt]

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On 26/06/19 23:22, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> The question wasnt regarding the current board, but the historical
> relationship.
>
Fair - I'm just fed up of the same old arguments trotted out repeatedly....

It's past, gone, done .. would we go back and change it, sure, probably....
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Michael Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org>
> Date: 6/27/19 00:15 (GMT+01:00)
> To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees:
> Gentoo Foundation
>
> On 26/06/19 23:03, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> >> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> >>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> >>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
> >>>> the Gentoo Foundation:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
> >>>>    Foundation?
> >>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
> >>> for good reasons.
> >>>
> >> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
> >> taken?
> > The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
> > laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
> > accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
> > primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
> > ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
> > necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.
> >
> Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past on the
> officers of the present? From what I understand, the present and recent
> officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the shortcomings of
> previous trustees, and to bang on about the status quo and that of previous
> foundation officers is hardly either constructive nor helpful to rectifying
> the present situation.
> >>>> 2. What should the future relationship between the Council & Foundation
> >>>>    look like?
> >>> As long as the foundation does it job and doesn't meddle in the running
> >>> of the distro I'm fine, but the foundation is there to support the
> distro.
> >>>
> >>>> 3. What should the future of the Foundation itself look like?
> >>> I'm fond of having an own foundation rather than an umbrella org, but it
> >>> requires that it is properly run.
> >>>
> >> Do you mind being more specific here as well?
> > see above.
> >
> >
>
>


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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In my specific case I've offered my expertise by answering accounting specific questions as well as writing a proposal for a RFP for further help. I do however get annoyed when some foundation members starting to interfere in matters outside ther scope.
-------- Original message --------From: Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org> Date: 6/27/19  00:13  (GMT+01:00) To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation On 19-06-27 00:06:05, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:> On 6/27/19 12:03 AM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:> > On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:> >> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:> >>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:> >>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around> >>>> the Gentoo Foundation:> >>>>> >>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &> >>>>    Foundation?> >>>> >>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,> >>> for good reasons.> >>>> >>> >> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see> >> taken?> > > > The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the> > laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,> > accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The> > primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to> > ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the> > necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.> > the other thing the foundation is responsible for is protecting> copyright, in this case there isn't a significant issue, but it needs to> keep track of, and defend against, others using the Gentoo brand for> various cases (since most of Gentoo Foundation IP is tied to the> logo/brand) and no anything related to the actual code (that belongs to> other copyright owners)> This one I think we have done well at, mainly sending C&D emails/lettersas needed (which it generally is not needed).Beyond the above two points, as a follow on question.1. How would you work to improve the relationship with the foundation?-- Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michael Everitt]

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On 26/06/19 23:28, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> In my specific case I've offered my expertise by answering accounting
> specific questions as well as writing a proposal for a RFP for further
> help. I do however get annoyed when some foundation members starting to
> interfere in matters outside ther scope.
>
Whilst this thread isn't a forum for personal attack, would you like to
enumerate further? What subjects are on-topic for trustees, and how have
members "interfered" in council business? Is this a matter of persons
having an opinion, or persons advising on subjects outside of their
personal expertise, or persons (who are already developers by statute)
exercising their rights as such, in other areas of the distribution?
How would you like to see this to ameliorated in the future?
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org>
> Date: 6/27/19 00:13 (GMT+01:00)
> To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees:
> Gentoo Foundation
>
> On 19-06-27 00:06:05, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > On 6/27/19 12:03 AM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > > On 6/26/19 11:54 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> > >> On 19-06-26 21:45:48, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > >>> On 6/25/19 1:23 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > >>>> To the Council nominees, I put forward the following questions, around
> > >>>> the Gentoo Foundation:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1. What's your opinion of the past relationship between the Council &
> > >>>>    Foundation?
> > >>>
> > >>> The council has been critical of the way the foundation has been run,
> > >>> for good reasons.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Do you mind enumerating the reasons and the actions you wish to see
> > >> taken?
> > >
> > > The foundation has failed to run an operation in accordance with the
> > > laws and legislation of a foundation when it comes to, in particular,
> > > accounting matters of a number of years, which is a disgrace. The
> > > primary responsibility of the board of directors and its officers is to
> > > ensure that the foundation comply with applicable laws and file the
> > > necessary paperwork for its operation for things including tax matters.
> >
> > the other thing the foundation is responsible for is protecting
> > copyright, in this case there isn't a significant issue, but it needs to
> > keep track of, and defend against, others using the Gentoo brand for
> > various cases (since most of Gentoo Foundation IP is tied to the
> > logo/brand) and no anything related to the actual code (that belongs to
> > other copyright owners)
> >
>
> This one I think we have done well at, mainly sending C&D emails/letters
> as needed (which it generally is not needed).
>
> Beyond the above two points, as a follow on question.
>
> 1. How would you work to improve the relationship with the foundation?
>
> -- 
> Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Andreas K. Huettel]

> Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past on the
> officers of the present? 

Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt work, we should do 
it different in the future.

> From what I understand, the present and recent
> officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the shortcomings of
> previous trustees

And that's great. 

But are you sure that we should require continuous "extraordinary efforts" 
from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?

FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer 
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> Beyond the above two points, as a follow on question.
> 
> 1. How would you work to improve the relationship with the foundation?

By dissolving it and having the day-to-day business handled by an umbrella 
organization.

Gentoo needs to be able to function, and a dual-headed model has turned out to 
be highly problematic in the past.

[It may work now, but there's no guarantee it will work in the future.]

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Aaron Bauman]

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On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > > Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past on the
> > > officers of the present? 
> > 
> > Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt work, we should do 
> > it different in the future.
> > 
> > > From what I understand, the present and recent
> > > officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the shortcomings of
> > > previous trustees
> > 
> > And that's great. 
> > 
> > But are you sure that we should require continuous "extraordinary efforts" 
> > from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
> > 
> > FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
> 

No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by a full time CPA.

-- 
Cheers,
Aaron

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michał Górny]

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On Sun, 2019-06-30 at 17:55 -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > > > Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past on the
> > > > officers of the present? 
> > > 
> > > Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt work, we should do 
> > > it different in the future.
> > > 
> > > > From what I understand, the present and recent
> > > > officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the shortcomings of
> > > > previous trustees
> > > 
> > > And that's great. 
> > > 
> > > But are you sure that we should require continuous "extraordinary efforts" 
> > > from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
> > > 
> > > FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
> 
> No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by a full time CPA.
> 

Wouldn't a dedicated 'full time CPA' be more expensive than an umbrella
that has a financial team for multiple projects?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2019.07.01 08:50, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sun, 2019-06-30 at 17:55 -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel
> wrote:
> > > > > Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past
> on the
> > > > > officers of the present? 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt
> work, we should do 
> > > > it different in the future.
> > > > 
> > > > > From what I understand, the present and recent
> > > > > officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the
> shortcomings of
> > > > > previous trustees
> > > > 
> > > > And that's great. 
> > > > 
> > > > But are you sure that we should require continuous
> "extraordinary efforts" 
> > > > from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
> > > > 
> > > > FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
> > 
> > No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by a
> full time CPA.
> > 
> 
> Wouldn't a dedicated 'full time CPA' be more expensive than an
> umbrella
> that has a financial team for multiple projects?
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Michał Górny
> 
> 

Ah, the nuances of the English language used between two non 
native spears. 

A 'full time CPA' means that the person does that sort of work full
time. It does not mean that he or she works full time for any one
client. 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
arm64

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michał Górny]

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On Mon, 2019-07-01 at 10:31 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
> On 2019.07.01 08:50, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Sun, 2019-06-30 at 17:55 -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past
> > on the
> > > > > > officers of the present? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt
> > work, we should do 
> > > > > it different in the future.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > From what I understand, the present and recent
> > > > > > officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the
> > shortcomings of
> > > > > > previous trustees
> > > > > 
> > > > > And that's great. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But are you sure that we should require continuous
> > "extraordinary efforts" 
> > > > > from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
> > > > > 
> > > > > FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
> > > 
> > > No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by a
> > full time CPA.
> > 
> > Wouldn't a dedicated 'full time CPA' be more expensive than an
> > umbrella
> > that has a financial team for multiple projects?
> > 
> > -- 
> > Best regards,
> > Michał Górny
> > 
> > 
> 
> Ah, the nuances of the English language used between two non 
> native spears. 
> 
> A 'full time CPA' means that the person does that sort of work full
> time. It does not mean that he or she works full time for any one
> client. 
> 

Yes, I understand that.  However, I still believe that a contract
initiated between CPA and a single small-ish entity such a Gentoo
involves more costs than fees taken by umbrella dedicated to multiple
entities.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

While I can agree that we need to pay more at the moment due to past
issues, I also believe that we owe it to our donors that we try not to
spend most of their money on unnecessary bureaucracy (read: keeping
a dedicated Foundation if there's an alternative that works for Gentoo).

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michael Everitt]

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On 01/07/19 10:52, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-07-01 at 10:31 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
>> On 2019.07.01 08:50, Michał Górny wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2019-06-30 at 17:55 -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past
>>> on the
>>>>>>> officers of the present? 
>>>>>> Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt
>>> work, we should do 
>>>>>> it different in the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From what I understand, the present and recent
>>>>>>> officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the
>>> shortcomings of
>>>>>>> previous trustees
>>>>>> And that's great. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But are you sure that we should require continuous
>>> "extraordinary efforts" 
>>>>>> from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
>>>> No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by a
>>> full time CPA.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a dedicated 'full time CPA' be more expensive than an
>>> umbrella
>>> that has a financial team for multiple projects?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Michał Górny
>>>
>>>
>> Ah, the nuances of the English language used between two non 
>> native spears. 
>>
>> A 'full time CPA' means that the person does that sort of work full
>> time. It does not mean that he or she works full time for any one
>> client. 
>>
> Yes, I understand that.  However, I still believe that a contract
> initiated between CPA and a single small-ish entity such a Gentoo
> involves more costs than fees taken by umbrella dedicated to multiple
> entities.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> While I can agree that we need to pay more at the moment due to past
> issues, I also believe that we owe it to our donors that we try not to
> spend most of their money on unnecessary bureaucracy (read: keeping
> a dedicated Foundation if there's an alternative that works for Gentoo).
>
Has anyone got any ball-park figures for the costs of being part of an
umbrella organisation?
And how would this compare to the forecasted costs ongoing for Gentoo
Foundation Inc. or a future non-profit?
What would the tax implications of an umbrella org look like, vs Gentoo
keeping these in-house?


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Michael Everitt]

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On 01/07/19 11:02, Michael Everitt wrote:
> On 01/07/19 10:52, Michał Górny wrote:
>> On Mon, 2019-07-01 at 10:31 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
>>> On 2019.07.01 08:50, Michał Górny wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 2019-06-30 at 17:55 -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the past
>>>> on the
>>>>>>>> officers of the present? 
>>>>>>> Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt
>>>> work, we should do 
>>>>>>> it different in the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From what I understand, the present and recent
>>>>>>>> officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the
>>>> shortcomings of
>>>>>>>> previous trustees
>>>>>>> And that's great. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But are you sure that we should require continuous
>>>> "extraordinary efforts" 
>>>>>>> from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
>>>>> No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by a
>>>> full time CPA.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't a dedicated 'full time CPA' be more expensive than an
>>>> umbrella
>>>> that has a financial team for multiple projects?
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Michał Górny
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Ah, the nuances of the English language used between two non 
>>> native spears. 
>>>
>>> A 'full time CPA' means that the person does that sort of work full
>>> time. It does not mean that he or she works full time for any one
>>> client. 
>>>
>> Yes, I understand that.  However, I still believe that a contract
>> initiated between CPA and a single small-ish entity such a Gentoo
>> involves more costs than fees taken by umbrella dedicated to multiple
>> entities.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>> While I can agree that we need to pay more at the moment due to past
>> issues, I also believe that we owe it to our donors that we try not to
>> spend most of their money on unnecessary bureaucracy (read: keeping
>> a dedicated Foundation if there's an alternative that works for Gentoo).
>>
> Has anyone got any ball-park figures for the costs of being part of an
> umbrella organisation?
> And how would this compare to the forecasted costs ongoing for Gentoo
> Foundation Inc. or a future non-profit?
> What would the tax implications of an umbrella org look like, vs Gentoo
> keeping these in-house?
>
Finally, would the Council (prospective) prefer to pay an additional cost
to an Umbrella org to be free of Gentoo Foundation or other sub-project?


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2019.07.01 10:52, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-07-01 at 10:31 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
> > On 2019.07.01 08:50, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2019-06-30 at 17:55 -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 05:54:35PM -0400, Aaron Bauman wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 01:49:58AM +0200, Andreas K. Huettel
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Isn't it about time we quit pinning the mistakes of the
> past
> > > on the
> > > > > > > officers of the present? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well, yes. Though, we tried something in the past, it didnt
> > > work, we should do 
> > > > > > it different in the future.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > From what I understand, the present and recent
> > > > > > > officers have made extraordinary efforts to rectify the
> > > shortcomings of
> > > > > > > previous trustees
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And that's great. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But are you sure that we should require continuous
> > > "extraordinary efforts" 
> > > > > > from trustees in the future, just to keep things running?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > FWIW, I endorse antarus / Alec for trustee. :)
> > > > 
> > > > No, once fixed, the books will likely be continued to be done by
> a
> > > full time CPA.
> > > 
> > > Wouldn't a dedicated 'full time CPA' be more expensive than an
> > > umbrella
> > > that has a financial team for multiple projects?
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Best regards,
> > > Michał Górny
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Ah, the nuances of the English language used between two non 
> > native spears. 
> > 
> > A 'full time CPA' means that the person does that sort of work full
> > time. It does not mean that he or she works full time for any one
> > client. 
> > 
> 
> Yes, I understand that.  However, I still believe that a contract
> initiated between CPA and a single small-ish entity such a Gentoo
> involves more costs than fees taken by umbrella dedicated to multiple
> entities.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Nobody knows yet. Different umbrellas work differently. Different CPAs
charge differently and perform different scopes of work.
The Foundation will need to perform a value judgement based on 
quotations not beliefs.

Its not all for the Foundation to decide. We have to find an umbrella to 
have us before dissolving the Foundation is even an option.

> 
> While I can agree that we need to pay more at the moment due to past
> issues, I also believe that we owe it to our donors that we try not to
> spend most of their money on unnecessary bureaucracy (read: keeping
> a dedicated Foundation if there's an alternative that works for
> Gentoo).

Yes. That's what due diligence is partly about, ensuring the Foundation 
gets value for money. 
 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Michał Górny
> 
> 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
arm64

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 7:26 AM Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Nobody knows yet. Different umbrellas work differently. Different CPAs
> charge differently and perform different scopes of work.
> The Foundation will need to perform a value judgement based on
> quotations not beliefs.
>

My understanding is that most of these will either take a percentage
of donations for internal operations, or will accept donations
separately to fund internal operations, or both.

I suspect that the cost will be significantly less simply due to the
standardization and volumes involved.  Plus most of these are 501c3 so
they don't have to pay taxes for most things, and of course US
taxpayers can further deduct whatever they do contribute (though with
the recent increase in the standard deduction this benefit is going to
be much less universal than it was a few years ago).

However, I think Gentoo really should think about ways to go a step
further and minimize its reliance on owning stuff in the first place.
It is nice that we have all these donated hosts and volunteers to
maintain them, but as we depend on all this stuff we increase our
exposure to harm when somebody threatens to take that stuff away.
Distributed technologies like git greatly help to reduce these risks
as it makes our data much more portable - it would be nice if at some
point somebody came up with something similar for some of our other
needs, starting with bugzilla (which is always the first thing that
comes up anytime we talk about using a service like Github, and for
good reason).

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> > Yes, I understand that.  However, I still believe that a contract
> > initiated between CPA and a single small-ish entity such a Gentoo
> > involves more costs than fees taken by umbrella dedicated to multiple
> > entities.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Nobody knows yet. Different umbrellas work differently.

Sigh. I agree with the second statement. The first one, well...

Here's the example of SPI (disclaimer, we do not know if they would take us):
* no direct costs associated
* 5% deduction from donations for SPI's overhead

Big Hint, it helps to first research something and then talk / discuss. That's 
however, rather rare on this list.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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[I'm moving this back to gentoo-project only because otherwise the mess gets 
even bigger.]

> What would the tax implications of an umbrella org look like, vs Gentoo
> keeping these in-house?

Well, at the example of SPI (for disclaimer see other mail):

* SPI qualifies as a domestic public charity for purposes of US tax law
* Tax-exempt status under section 501(c)3 of the United States Internal 
Revenue Code was granted on May 23, 1999.
* Donations are tax-deductible in the US

https://www.spi-inc.org/donations/

At the example of the Software Conservancy: 

* Software Freedom Conservancy, Inc. is a 501(c)(3) organization incorporated 
in New York, and donations made to it are fully tax-deductible to the extent 
permitted by law.

https://sfconservancy.org/donate/

Donations to the Gentoo Foundation are not tax-deductible anywhere.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Montag, 1. Juli 2019, 21:42:29 CEST schrieb Andreas K. Huettel:
[...]

Oh and btw, I found all this out by less than 5min of googling.
Puh--leeease.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Alec Warner]

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On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:44 PM Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> Am Montag, 1. Juli 2019, 21:42:29 CEST schrieb Andreas K. Huettel:
> [...]
>
> Oh and btw, I found all this out by less than 5min of googling.
> Puh--leeease.
>

I have a list of about 20 umbrella organizations that we should be
contacting, I don't really expect to have a discussion about them on the
list until we produce a report with our findings.
I'm happy to publish the list; maybe we are missing some of them.

-A


>
> --
> Andreas K. Hüttel
> dilfridge@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Linux developer
> (council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2019.07.01 21:10, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:44 PM Andreas K. Huettel
> <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > Am Montag, 1. Juli 2019, 21:42:29 CEST schrieb Andreas K. Huettel:
> > [...]
> >
> > Oh and btw, I found all this out by less than 5min of googling.
> > Puh--leeease.
> >
> 
> I have a list of about 20 umbrella organizations that we should be
> contacting, I don't really expect to have a discussion about them on
> the
> list until we produce a report with our findings.
> I'm happy to publish the list; maybe we are missing some of them.
> 
> -A
> 
> 
> >
> > --
> > Andreas K. Hüttel
> > dilfridge@gentoo.org
> > Gentoo Linux developer
> > (council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)
> 

We are getting into the weeds when my question to council candidates
was along the lines of in the event the Foundation is dissolved, who 
or what group will manage the financial responsibility that will remain with
Gentoo?

So far, there have been answers to that from only two candidates.

Gentoo needs to plan for that. The Foundation could be gone by 
30 June 2020.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
arm64

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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 7/1/19 11:14 PM, Roy Bamford wrote:
> We are getting into the weeds when my question to council candidates
> was along the lines of in the event the Foundation is dissolved, who 
> or what group will manage the financial responsibility that will remain with
> Gentoo?
> 
> So far, there have been answers to that from only two candidates.
> 
> Gentoo needs to plan for that. The Foundation could be gone by 
> 30 June 2020.

There are too many uncertainties on how an alternative structure looks
to really comment on the question comprehensively, but I'm not worried
about the council directing payment instructions to the umbrella org,
likely via a council-specified contact. In all fairness, in many ways it
is an issue that Gentoo doesn't use more money than it already does,
mainly since it is based on incoming proposals for activities. I'd be
very happy to see more good proposals come along for events etc and be
part of voting for it in council (I really doubt the end result will
differ anything from today's on that).

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-project] Questions for Gentoo Council nominees: Gentoo Foundation

[desultory]

On 07/01/19 15:34, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>> Yes, I understand that.  However, I still believe that a contract
>>> initiated between CPA and a single small-ish entity such a Gentoo
>>> involves more costs than fees taken by umbrella dedicated to multiple
>>> entities.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>> Nobody knows yet. Different umbrellas work differently.
> 
> Sigh. I agree with the second statement. The first one, well...
> 
> Here's the example of SPI (disclaimer, we do not know if they would take us):
> * no direct costs associated
> * 5% deduction from donations for SPI's overhead
> 
> Big Hint, it helps to first research something and then talk / discuss. That's 
> however, rather rare on this list.
> 
Given that the financial reports for the current year are not yet in, it
is entirely true that the costs involved are presently unknown. As, bear
with me here, 5% of an unknown quantity is still an unknown quantity.
Further, comparing a known percentage of an unknown quantity to another
unknown quantity of unknown relative magnitude is an effectively
valueless proposition. So could we please avoid pointlessly belittling
others and their factual comments?