From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7A82138330 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 2016 15:13:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01247E0BBF; Fri, 7 Oct 2016 15:13:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pf0-f175.google.com (mail-pf0-f175.google.com [209.85.192.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFB54E0BB8 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 2016 15:13:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf0-f175.google.com with SMTP id i85so24876254pfa.3 for ; Fri, 07 Oct 2016 08:13:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=9FeGWthSAlwQFtOpVivR+nEaRby6bhWid3yUvk/reJk=; b=BFDl0q331WZxyoLW5RX9xrYtXqt+OLGqUYcqLTfYJDNRaVFw7EDgAGx126tXaBRh+1 tiaXqXKdYaPu7bqnBfFawo8lI3HAzxyI4h59739kyCJSclNMYvCGPRalofXZkusFnGkR lF4blJpbnmLbOUPdpw1kr+RsSNXqIyqy2fW3s8BasuBovW2C/nCdhbH4nde/1mnyYojo yTS/T3CZ0BQC7s1s3CGNRywF8CklURk1Xh59v1sivTYAyIGXjILQshsfY1Ld/ahh3jN8 MHIFEFfsbXU7lTgpI9v2vjpiADYVFU7162dVg8o6lI7LnXhoxWRFlnQQsFpnbSNGpwBo VObA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=9FeGWthSAlwQFtOpVivR+nEaRby6bhWid3yUvk/reJk=; b=cQQc3WjItfRHtg4ehOG5mK3t6H5P7WSXk4GCb+B55fKLf8kOfxWLgQ70Z4VZ8prLB8 69Z5oJNhFneioIYMuToSqspGDcDBPreBXSOYElCR82sBlPc9BON9amCqglmT7GE1HimL xIgCGNt0iU4dv8Fud9o2D54wUMIEwm+wP9SxWzWc4ub6UFeAUUQooAWdcvzpyIXUkuwt tbsHz0IxxoYYM2lkwMgGBwrkKfKwBtmFaSALyF9raNsS9p9FHd9pE4Ia/mTGo9J/ZUBm /WN6tnXZybejqrpqVg5zabIm5WU8jKFF1k5mTmUDV1Wv0Cd0phOXxqX41lM4xnWYRmUx 6oMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA6/9RlBCKpmR2+LYXK1svrtcVsAfYH61RukxtNB8vuWTvWAHuZ9u5XHNY2WWp4zmj0YDw== X-Received: by 10.98.85.198 with SMTP id j189mr29501000pfb.123.1475853207594; Fri, 07 Oct 2016 08:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:602:9c00:cf41:a15c:1ca:cdf1:57a3? ([2601:602:9c00:cf41:a15c:1ca:cdf1:57a3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v24sm14827249pfd.1.2016.10.07.08.13.26 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Oct 2016 08:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years... To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org References: <832d6b86-ee0e-4509-7f74-1e19fd4e4db9@gentoo.org> <46323553-e9c0-8d52-3c2a-a75b0245c7ce@gentoo.org> <38df2901-f32b-3cdf-1f7a-f630f54a7eb4@gmail.com> From: Nick Vinson Message-ID: <33c31a36-3c14-17e1-d945-8fa3edcf38b7@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 08:13:25 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.3.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vUFTSSsuEN8KxjFp80983ahCSX156gMMA" X-Archives-Salt: b48af3f1-4edb-4cb1-8043-dfdaf6283b46 X-Archives-Hash: 06f50261919b081d792fa03eb451a5af This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vUFTSSsuEN8KxjFp80983ahCSX156gMMA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5SWCG0IQAMNDEctInhnsvrAxhoM3KH83r" From: Nick Vinson To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: <33c31a36-3c14-17e1-d945-8fa3edcf38b7@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years... References: <832d6b86-ee0e-4509-7f74-1e19fd4e4db9@gentoo.org> <46323553-e9c0-8d52-3c2a-a75b0245c7ce@gentoo.org> <38df2901-f32b-3cdf-1f7a-f630f54a7eb4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --5SWCG0IQAMNDEctInhnsvrAxhoM3KH83r Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/07/2016 08:09 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: > On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Nick Vinson wro= te: >> >> On 10/07/2016 04:58 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: >>> >>> Note that most court systems do not generally strive for independence= >>> between court levels. Usually lower courts are completely subject to= >>> the higher ones. This makes sense when you consider how appeals work= =2E >>> Imagine if a lower court and a higher court were completely in >>> disagreement. Anybody who the higher court felt was guilty was set >>> free by the lower court, and anybody the higher court felt was >> >> I'm not following this logic. Are you defining independence as also >> being equals? The appeals courts don't manage the lower courts in the= >> same way a company manages its employees. >=20 > My understanding is that in most courts higher courts are able to > discipline the members of lower courts. If a lower court doesn't > follow the precedence of a higher court, the lower court membership > can be adjusted to one that will. This is often the case even when > the lower court members are elected, but election of judges tends to > cause many problems. >=20 >> And while it may not be >> universally true in the US, if a lower court decides someone is not >> guilty (or a jury for that court does), then it's over. The appeals >> court opinion is moot. >=20 > I don't think this is true. I believe the prosecution is allowed to > appeal decisions. An appeal doesn't constitute double jeopardy. Now, > many of these decisions are findings of fact for which appeals courts > tend to not pay much attention, but that doesn't mean that there was > no opportunity for appeal. Criminal Case. The defendant may appeal a guilty verdict, but the government may not appeal if a defendant is found not guilty. Either side in a criminal case may appeal with respect to the sentence that is imposed after a guilty verdict. Source: http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/types-cases/appeals So in short, if you are found not-guilty in a lower court it's over. There's nothing more the US government can do. >=20 >>> >>> That actually brings up a separate issue with how Comrel operates. >>> Right now the most common interpretation of the code of conduct says >>> that the only person who can appeal a Comrel decision is somebody >>> being punished by Comrel. If dev A complains to Comrel about dev B >>> doing something wrong, and Comrel decides to take no action against >>> dev B, dev A has no recourse for appeal. That is a system biased >>> against action because there are two opportunities to stop action, bu= t >> >> This is a good thing. Should you really have to worry so much about >> what you say in emails, forum posts, IRC channels, so you don't offend= >> anyone and risk them reporting you and then you getting an X duration = ban? >=20 > You won't be expelled for offending somebody. You'll be expelled for > demonstrating a persistent inability to follow the code of conduct. > If you're about to do something that violates the CoC, then of course > the possibility of enforcement should give you pause. >=20 >> >> Like it or not, there are going to be conflicting opinions and >> discussions on those opinions will sometimes get heated and on occasio= n >> complaints will be filed because emotions have taken over, but none of= >> that is justification for ComRel to intervene. >> >=20 > Of course. I'm not suggesting that Comrel should resolve every issue > in an expulsion. And if somebody feels that Comrel didn't go far > enough I do think they should have the same right of appeal as > somebody who feels they went to far, but that doesn't mean that the > Council has to agree with them. >=20 >> There's nothing >> positive of going to someone out-of-the-blue and saying "We received >> complaints about you, we agreed with the complaints, so here's what yo= ur >> punishment is. Don't like it file an appeal". >=20 > In the few appeals I've seen, this was not the approach Comrel took. > They would be overturned on appeal a lot more often if that were the > case. >=20 >> I don't recall anyone suggesting that comrel become independent of the= >> council. What I have seen and personally suggested was that comrel >> membership be voted in by the full Gentoo dev community just as the >> council is. Everything would remain the same. That means ComRel is >> still overseen by the Council and anyone who doesn't agree with a ComR= el >> decision can appeal. >=20 > If Comrel were independently elected, then it is effectively > independent of the Council. Sure, decisions could be appealed, but > short of overturning 100% of their decisions the Council would have no > power to change how Comrel operates. And if we went with the appeals > policy you advocated if Council felt that not enough people were > getting kicked out it would have no ability to change that at all, > since there would be nothing to appeal. >=20 > Any body that is elected has its own mandate. The Council has a > mandate. The Trustees have a mandate. That means the Council can do > something and say "screw you, this is what the devs want" to the > Trustees. Then the Trustees can do something else and say "screw you, > this is what the Foundation members want" to the Council. That isn't > productive. It makes far more sense to have one version of "what the > community wants" with one definition of "the community." I really > don't want to pattern Gentoo after the US checks-and-balances system > which tends to end up just being a lot of stalemate with every branch > basically trying to do an end-run around the intended process because > everybody has their own mandate and does not agree. >=20 >> Comrel isn't a normal project, it has the ability to significantly >> affect Gentoo as a whole. The council has the same ability. I see >> little wisdom in letting people join ComRel without a vetting from the= >> greater community when when Council members are required to go through= >> such a vetting process. >=20 > I think it makes far more sense to have Comrel vetted by the Council. > If you don't trust somebody to be wielding that power, you shouldn't > put them on the Council. >=20 --5SWCG0IQAMNDEctInhnsvrAxhoM3KH83r-- --vUFTSSsuEN8KxjFp80983ahCSX156gMMA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJX97uVAAoJEAQpRPZaa5gqHwwP/AnAYwqo9DGVgzuy/1DxQbdX PPndsscMwFHhg+QZUkC1hi4G8cf16h7Q0OtXB2RJZiZfLaypjaipz9jvWHzRrr4R 8BP31hY5XVapMAWg1mdOrXd7OgsHUKzyOOEvD0VkkqUxWnuh0eV/KDryKf0l9afr xN8fOt6Jx0A7isFrSVpiUZL6W21xZQ5V8dTyK/7F0zF5OxdMFmYGpbY2yBR2f3uD P/1oGjk6jKbBmKvHkI4JdvgimyATGIhFiS8ZPjuBAfZ4N0b8NyGgHL7RJg7O3Dai wGyuDykv5kFnJ2Xs1BYLwUlYMMMSWJEnZaOzbAX1z7k5AlddeLtCr/minpzH+pg/ ysY6cusLADHq9M8dGDCKgpxfMYVd3bYxHOFMkUeFlESurUyj2fMpWBN1wq3oVVN5 lrO5g23I60zDp0R5Xl5+eTHL4iYYqxy9cMt0hlDIjyY0K2/zwfPmzTs247Xwoadm UMjYcMh6n+MA7mJF947KoMrLYkXLtfQxVMAr1ZgYkiRRtSPcHFBFDFUoVOVvmcr+ wS6qqlSe2wShpa3cuJrbe/pooPgtqOUFrPkjfgOlG9mnbQ1ghy4J9FYTeuk1/a/2 t689MIGUfkw6J3a2hLs2Z3fElUP289U1Pt+9wlTYp01qljKRX2zcXkpzmFW6jEHI dMXK9izzUvFXnLKP9ZfL =pJlL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vUFTSSsuEN8KxjFp80983ahCSX156gMMA--