From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9515C1382C5 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:42:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66D6FE095D; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:42:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smarthost01b.mail.zen.net.uk (smarthost01b.mail.zen.net.uk [212.23.1.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 156F3E095A for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:42:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [62.3.120.142] (helo=NeddySeagoon_Static) by smarthost01b.mail.zen.net.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ko66Z-0003SF-KB for gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:42:39 +0000 Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:42:24 +0000 From: Roy Bamford Subject: Re: Shutting down the Off the Wall (was: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items ...) To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Cc: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6fdc2e391963216419f77dead8e16ff8d50f0322.camel@gentoo.org> X-Mailer: Balsa 2.6.1 Message-Id: <2LFZC3RZ.WVSUWEDL.VQXYWEFC@CMM6QA7H.D55IMDXP.EKCHVXDO> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-rKNq6sHVpaExivTadNeS" X-Originating-smarthost01b-IP: [62.3.120.142] Feedback-ID: 62.3.120.142 X-Archives-Salt: b41663b2-d409-4036-bb9c-5f9566abcf2f X-Archives-Hash: 091a339c0a1c6b033b6e4b43d79fad53 --=-rKNq6sHVpaExivTadNeS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020.12.12 13:24, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: > On Tue, 2020-12-01 at 05:15 +0200, Andreas K. H=C3=BCttel wrote: > > This leaves us with two options: > >=20 > > 1) shut down OTW > > or > > 2) replace or supplement forum moderators with people willing to > > fulfill the > > moderator role in OTW > >=20 > > I dont see 2) happen (for the simple reasons=20 > > * that it will be difficult to find someone to do the work > > * and that noone has volunteered to do it over the past year > > ), so 1) it is. > >=20 >=20 > The more I think about it, the more this seems to resemble gentoo-dev > moderation. >=20 > To recap, we've closed down gentoo-dev to public because of a few > people misbehaving. This was the wrong solution to the problem, > and in my opinion -- and I say that as someone who originally pushed > for it and then regretted it -- this has done more harm than good. > It did not solve the problem, and it has done harm to our community.=20 > In the end, the problematic individual was banned anyway, and the list > was reopened. >=20 > I feel like the whole OTW situation is similar. OTW is not the root > of > the problem, it is just its biggest symptom. I feel that we're trying > to eliminate one symptom and hoping that would be enough to cure > the disease. Sure, that works for a common cold but I think it's > a long shot for the Forums situation. >=20 > Andreas is right that replacing Forum moderators isn't easy. However, > if we leave things as-is and just apply a drive-through band-aid, > the problem will return in one form or another. I know that political > correctness asks us to discuss problems, not people -- but what *if* > people are the problem? I really feel like we should not be > discussing > 'applying this or that band-aid to Forums' but 'saying "thank you" to > our Forums team and starting over'. >=20 > Sure, it will take some time before a new team forms, from people > actually willing to keep Forums a quality ground for everyone. It > might be necessary to disable the most problematic Forums for the time > being, or even the new team may decide not to have such a forum at > all. > The experience with many projects inside Gentoo proves that once > the most problematic people left the project or were forcibly removed > from it, long-defunct projects started thriving again. I don't see > why > the same couldn't work for Forums. >=20 > I don't feel like us arbitrarily making decisions Forums team > disagrees > with and then hoping that things will work out is right. If Forums > team does not have the best Gentoo interest at heart (and I feel like > at least some of the Forum moderators have lost contact with 'Gentoo > the distribution' a long time ago), then it is time to make a new > Forums team. A team that cares about Forums benefitting Gentoo users > more than about chit-chatting with their buddies from the old days. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Best regards, > Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 My view is that its more like the original Proctors project than the=20 -dev ml but I see the parallels you draw. The original Proctors project was created by the council of the day to=20 be a quick reaction short slap response team to CoC violations. Then one day, a council member did something to get slapped. Instead of calming down and reflecting on events, by which time, the=20 slap would have worn off, said council member appealed directly to council and managed to get the Proctors disbanded. That sent the message to the community that the CoC did not apply to council members. The CoC has never recovered. Now we have a council member appealing directly to council again ... that sends the message to the community, yet again, that the=20 processes that council are supposed to enforce don't apply to council=20 members. Will the damage from that message ever be undone? As to potential solutions to perceived problems, we are going to apply any fix in one planned well publicised sequence of events, exactly=20 once. Not piecemeal by council knee-jerk reaction votes month=20 after month. The first step in that process is for all interested parties to compile a comprehensive problem statement, encompassing all the perceived=20 problems (real or not). So far, several months after the original post to the closed list, nothing like that exists. Should anyone be too shy to post in public, I'll offer to do the=20 compilation based on signed emails to my gentoo address. It's time to put up or shut up. --=20 Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) a member of elections gentoo-ops forum-mods arm64 --=-rKNq6sHVpaExivTadNeS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAABCAAdFiEEsOrcx0gZrrCMwJzo/xJODTqpeT4FAl/U1tAACgkQ/xJODTqp eT7XvAf8CqlOWPh4wavs6eo0OJOgv7fAWP+psUxRQfMKs2QIlEC28mfsqh9LLEvu tL8qlwtiR9z7QRJAAPWMsmm7b3Px0Q1ZI7B0Zv2bnxDdzsDVDGdWyU6+zkKoYNhu /FZoZ4qB6QaGZn0VYZCkfYa3FYcAXjDdTmqkXDDGrqsCaIL3QSrN3lmAIZ6sI/Ey IavojyiHN7PnuA1maotGGrTgGy/DTc6uUyBlD5TlzrJAhmWGrKe3hy1poAngwYnm AnZ0bQ6Ux9jKOOHl+bTlgVnypuDeMSCf9TbbZQnopcDF3MtOrV0XQFH6Hz9K2lij OoPlor5opXjA7+VyIsMl/HEwrf35VQ== =/rY0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-rKNq6sHVpaExivTadNeS--