[gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Michał Górny]

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Hello,

Here's another question for the nominees.

Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been
approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo
representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do with
the Council matters.

Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they
have reasons enough to attack others?  Should they not participate
in flames, unless only to extinguish them?

Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other
developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists?  Is it
good that he throws false accusations without verifying them?

Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused
on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes
by finding 'a common enemy'?

Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo?  Or should they
maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after
discrediting themselves in the middle of election?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020, Michał Górny wrote:

> Here's another question for the nominees.

> Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been
> approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo
> representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do with
> the Council matters.

> Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
> lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
> should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they
> have reasons enough to attack others?  Should they not participate
> in flames, unless only to extinguish them?

> Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other
> developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists?  Is it
> good that he throws false accusations without verifying them?

> Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused
> on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes
> by finding 'a common enemy'?

> Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo?  Or should they
> maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after
> discrediting themselves in the middle of election?

These sound like rhetorical questions to me. Can you tell us who they
are directed at, please? (I can guess, but I may be wrong.)

So, I am not going to answer.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Jeroen Roovers]

     Hello Michał,


On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:47:17 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Here's another question for the nominees.

Allow me to intrude.

> Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been
> approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo
> representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do
> with the Council matters.

Yes.

> Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
> lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
> should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe
> they have reasons enough to attack others?  Should they not
> participate in flames, unless only to extinguish them?

Yes.

> Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other
> developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists?  Is it
> good that he throws false accusations without verifying them?

This is you exhibiting an example of the unwanted behaviour above?

> Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused
> on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes
> by finding 'a common enemy'?

This is you exhibiting an example of the unwanted behaviour above?


Kind regards,
     jer

Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Thomas Deutschmann]

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Oh hi,

someone is running his campaign again like previous years [1].

First he attacked project members working for Sony [2], then he started
to attack Patrick and now, the person who shared his idea that Gentoo
should be ruled by a triumvirate [3] which he later declared as an
'out-of-season' April fool after getting tremendous backlash is digging
up old stuff about me in hope people have forgotten the details about.

On 2020-06-26 12:47, Michał Górny wrote:
> Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
> lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
> should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they
> have reasons enough to attack others?  Should they not participate
> in flames, unless only to extinguish them?

You are demanding that council members should participate in mailing
list discussions in the past [1]. But when someone is doing that and
don't agree with you, you are immediately attacking people (you were
told more than once that it is very hard to discuss with you). And if
they reply to that attack in *any* way you blame them for participating
in flame wars. So how should that work?


> Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other
> developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists?  Is it
> good that he throws false accusations without verifying them?

The exact words I used [4] were

> You are lacking humanity.

I am curious why you bring this up again given that it was resolved and
parts of Proctor did their job. Anyway, like you know, I am not a native
English speaker. It's also not a secret that my English is not good at
all. Once I was made aware that someone misunderstood what I wrote I
clarified my words. But I still stick to my statement (meaning) today.
And unfortunately the last year has confirmed all of this:

May I remind you that everyone in this project should basically share
same goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell me, you as someone
who is really good in technical writing and almost perfect compared to
myself in using English language, why you have to use terms like
"exhibit" [5] which Cambridge dictionary explains as

> a thing used as evidence (= proof that something is true) in a trial

What is Gentoo for you? I hope most Gentoo developers agree with me that
words like that aren't appropriate to describe *anything* in Gentoo.
Heck, why are you even creating *cases* against people sharing same
goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell us why you are the
reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
most bugs filed by others.

Tell us why you are collecting stuff against other project members at
all. This is crazy. We are on the same project. We should share same
goals. We agreed on the same code of conduct. When you feel the need to
do anything like that then anything else went already wrong. I mean
*really* wrong.

Please tell us why you are attacking new Gentoo user posting to our
public mailing list [6] for the first time?

Sorry, I would really like to stand corrected. That I have to tell
world, "He has changed" but I cannot.


> Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused
> on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes
> by finding 'a common enemy'?

...said the one who has the longest track record of negative campaigning
in Gentoo for how many years? Heck, why do have to do negative
campaigning at all in a project like Gentoo? This is soooo wrong and
makes me very sad to see.


> Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo?  Or should they
> maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after
> discrediting themselves in the middle of election?

If you or anyone else don't like that I don't accept the behavior I
listed above and that I won't keep my mouth shut whenever I am concerned
how we as project interact with each other because I am somehow
representing Gentoo, do NOT vote for me.

The society itself is already brutalized. It is time to no longer
tolerate such behavior.


See also:
=========
[1]
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/ab301f4500b144188fa708e96cc0c66e

[2]
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/da65e9b6aea6bd72a2b331942d710044

[3]
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/d6fb0a63608e9175563b903b3b425491

[4]
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/e659564c6377eef8f44d75ef666dd56a

[5] https://bugs.gentoo.org/701536

[6]
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/8513b97cb2eabec619e26602b0086015


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> Tell us why you are the
> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
> most bugs filed by others.

Err... how did you arrive at that?

I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of 
statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long ago).

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:57 AM Andreas K. Huettel
<dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > Tell us why you are the
> > reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
> > most bugs filed by others.
>
> Err... how did you arrive at that?
>
> I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of
> statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long ago).
>

Frankly, if statistics like this do exist they shouldn't be the
subject of public discussion on lists.

An anonymous histogram on #of complaints for any dev might be
interesting.  (ie 5 unnamed devs had 3 complaints, 1 dev had 14, etc).

However, unless we shift to a model where comrel complaints are public
we shouldn't have people divulging information about how many
complaints (qualitatively or quantitatively) any particular dev has
filed or been the subject of.  Nobody should even know that somebody
has been the subject of a complaint.

Everybody already sees how most devs conduct themselves in public as
it is, they can judge for themselves if they are concerned with this.
If somebody has been a menace in private comrel should be dealing with
that outside the court of public opinion.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 17:24:43 CEST schrieb Rich Freeman:
> > Err... how did you arrive at that?
> > 
> > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of
> > statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long
> > ago).
> 
> Frankly, if statistics like this do exist they shouldn't be the
> subject of public discussion on lists.

Right, I fully agree with this. 

My point is merely that I do not know of the existence of any such statistics 
in the first place. And unfounded numbers should probably be avoided even 
more.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Thomas Deutschmann]

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On 2020-06-26 16:57, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>> Tell us why you are the
>> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
>> most bugs filed by others.
> 
> Err... how did you arrive at that?
> 
> I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of 
> statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long ago).

To be fair, it was just a quick bugzilla search. I don't do statistics
about that (note: I can't even do that even if I would like to because
of missing permissions):

Just do two searches, each with

  Product: Community Relations
  Changed: (is greater than or equal to) 2017-01-01

One with

  Reporter: (is equal to) m...

and the other one with

  Reporter: (is not equal to) m...

Of course you will have to drop some bugs from that list but I still
believe it will proof that *small* point I made if you just scan the
subjects and compare...


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Brian Dolbec]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:32:27 +0200
Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 2020-06-26 16:57, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> >> Tell us why you are the
> >> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject
> >> of most bugs filed by others.  
> > 
> > Err... how did you arrive at that?
> > 
> > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any
> > kind of statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been
> > removed long ago).  
> 
> To be fair, it was just a quick bugzilla search. I don't do statistics
> about that (note: I can't even do that even if I would like to because
> of missing permissions):
> 
> Just do two searches, each with
> 
>   Product: Community Relations
>   Changed: (is greater than or equal to) 2017-01-01
> 
> One with
> 
>   Reporter: (is equal to) m...
> 
> and the other one with
> 
>   Reporter: (is not equal to) m...
> 
> Of course you will have to drop some bugs from that list but I still
> believe it will proof that *small* point I made if you just scan the
> subjects and compare...
> 
> 

I think this thread should be closed before things get even worse.

Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 18:32:27 CEST schrieb Thomas Deutschmann:
> On 2020-06-26 16:57, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> >> Tell us why you are the
> >> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
> >> most bugs filed by others.
> > 
> > Err... how did you arrive at that?
> > 
> > I'm in council and not in comrel anymore, and I haven't seen any kind of
> > statistics (nor any bugs since my comrel access has been removed long
> > ago).
> 
> To be fair, it was just a quick bugzilla search. I don't do statistics
> about that (note: I can't even do that even if I would like to because
> of missing permissions):

These are the bugs that were for whatever reason opened up with agreement of 
all participants. 

Newly filed comrel bugs are confidential and by default remain so. You've 
mostly discovered that Michał is more open about things than others.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Michał Górny]

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Hello,

First of all, I'm really sorry to see that this mail doesn't seem to
achieve the desired affect of making the nominees think twice about what
they do.  On the other hand, it seems that you've chosen that this is
indeed the face you'd like us to see.  This is really sad.

If you read my mail, you'd notice that there are no names there.  Even
if you think it's obvious who I'm concerned about (it isn't to
bystanders), the major difference is that if someone tries to look you
up (say, a potential employer), he is unlikely to find my mail.
On the other hand, you've chosen to tarnish my reputation in a way
that's easily found.  It's sad.


On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 15:50 +0200, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:
> someone is running his campaign again like previous years [1].

I have concerns about the people representing the distribution I've
dedicated a lot of effort to.  Is that forbidden?  Are Council members
beyond reproach?

> 
> First he attacked project members working for Sony [2],

Firstly, why do you consider that an attack?  It is a legitimate concern
about conflicts of interest, and as you can easily see there are other
developers in Gentoo who share the concern to some degree.  You can
disagree with it but having a different opinion than somebody else's
does not seem to me to be 'attacking' that person.

Secondly, I don't see why you're singling out one particular company.
 My mail certainly doesn't do that, so it seems that you are putting
words in my mouth, and I don't even understand to what purpose.

>  then he started
> to attack Patrick and now, the person who shared his idea that Gentoo
> should be ruled by a triumvirate [3] which he later declared as an
> 'out-of-season' April fool after getting tremendous backlash 

Firstly, it was intended as a joke.  You can believe it or not but
I think you know me enough to realize that I wouldn't seriously consider
this proposal possible within Gentoo.  Why would I push for something
that could risk putting Gentoo in hands of someone disagreeable?

Secondly, I would suggest you read again wrt 'tremendous backslash'.
 The proposal got much more support than I expected.  This pretty
clearly suggests that people see that the things as they are now are far
from perfect.

> is digging
> up old stuff about me in hope people have forgotten the details about.

...and I thought the second part was just last Saturday.  I must be
being delusional then.

> On 2020-06-26 12:47, Michał Górny wrote:
> > Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
> > lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
> > should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they
> > have reasons enough to attack others?  Should they not participate
> > in flames, unless only to extinguish them?
> 
> You are demanding that council members should participate in mailing
> list discussions in the past [1]. But when someone is doing that and
> don't agree with you, you are immediately attacking people (you were
> told more than once that it is very hard to discuss with you).

Don't you think that generalizations are harmful?  Especially when one
tries really hard to make the other party look bad and filters the data
into the cases that support his cause.

>  And if
> they reply to that attack in *any* way you blame them for participating
> in flame wars. So how should that work?

I don't really know what you're referring to.  I suspect you might think
of something else than I was referring to.  However, in general don't
you think that elected public representatives of Gentoo should show
higher standards than lowly developers who resigned from political
positions?

> > Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other
> > developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists?  Is it
> > good that he throws false accusations without verifying them?
> 
> The exact words I used [4] were
> 
> > You are lacking humanity.
> 
> I am curious why you bring this up again given that it was resolved and
> parts of Proctor did their job. Anyway, like you know, I am not a native
> English speaker. It's also not a secret that my English is not good at
> all. Once I was made aware that someone misunderstood what I wrote I
> clarified my words. But I still stick to my statement (meaning) today.
> And unfortunately the last year has confirmed all of this:
> 
> May I remind you that everyone in this project should basically share
> same goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell me, you as someone
> who is really good in technical writing and almost perfect compared to
> myself in using English language, why you have to use terms like
> "exhibit" [5] which Cambridge dictionary explains as
> 
> > a thing used as evidence (= proof that something is true) in a trial
> 
> What is Gentoo for you? I hope most Gentoo developers agree with me that
> words like that aren't appropriate to describe *anything* in Gentoo.
> Heck, why are you even creating *cases* against people sharing same
> goals and agreed on same code of conduct?

Firstly, it was never my intention to offend anyone using that word,
and I still don't really understand why people nitpick at that.  As
you're perfectly aware, I'm not a native speaker either and it is common
for us, non-native speakers, not to be aware of specific associations of
some terms.  I have thought it sounds better than 'example'.  I never
expected to be bashed about that single word.

Secondly, I would like to remind you that discussing restricted bugs
on public mailing lists is not appropriate.

>  Tell us why you are the
> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
> most bugs filed by others.

I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to answer to that.  This single
paragraph poses so many problems, I'm not even sure where to start.

I am aware that some people were unhappy with me but I had no reasons to
assume what you're saying.  Nor I really understand how you could be in
possession of such data, given that you're not a member of ComRel.

This either means you've obtained access to restricted data that
shouldn't be available to you, or you're guessing (?) from incomplete
data.  Both options are problematic: the former sounds like an abuse
of power, the latter sounds like a quick way towards slander.

Furthermore, whether this is true or not, I'm pretty sure we aren't
supposed to discuss restricted ComRel bugs on a public mailing list.
So why are you doing that?

Now, as one of the Bugzilla admins I could technically access ComRel
bugs and verify that.  However, I've never done that as I consider that
an abuse of power.

> Tell us why you are collecting stuff against other project members at
> all. This is crazy. We are on the same project. We should share same
> goals. We agreed on the same code of conduct. When you feel the need to
> do anything like that then anything else went already wrong. I mean
> *really* wrong.

Your claim sounds like I'm proactively collecting some 'stuff' against
others.  This is not true.  Even if I wanted to, don't you think I have
better things to do?  I can't manage my ever-growing backlog,
and the last thing I need is to monitor the activity of other
developers.

Now, if you're asking why I'm supporting my complaints against actions
of other developers, then isn't the answer obvious?  Last I checked, QA
is supposed to work based on evidence and not unproven judgment.  This
means that if some developer is repeatedly causing problems and QA needs
to act on it, it is necessary to collect some examples of these
problems.  However, believe me, I've never really 'digged' into stuff --
whenever I felt like QA really needs to act, I've been literally hit
with the problematic commits.  Because they actually broke stuff,
because they caused warnings, because they affected my packages...

> Please tell us why you are attacking new Gentoo user posting to our
> public mailing list [6] for the first time?

This was a misunderstanding, and it was resolved.  Unless I'm mistaken,
there are no hard feelings there.  Can you say the same of your attacks?

> > Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused
> > on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes
> > by finding 'a common enemy'?
> 
> ...said the one who has the longest track record of negative campaigning
> in Gentoo for how many years? Heck, why do have to do negative
> campaigning at all in a project like Gentoo? This is soooo wrong and
> makes me very sad to see.

We do what we believe the best for the project.  If I believe that
a particular person has proven that he isn't a suitable candidate for
a Council member yet he decides to stand for the election, how can
I share my opinion positively?  It's something that's negative by its
sole nature.

It's nothing personal.  It is just a concern for the fate
of the project.  It is a concern that what is a verbal attack
on a mailing list today will turn into bias during the Council meetings,
and eventually into abuse of power.

> > Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo?  Or should they
> > maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after
> > discrediting themselves in the middle of election?
> 
> If you or anyone else don't like that I don't accept the behavior I
> listed above and that I won't keep my mouth shut whenever I am concerned
> how we as project interact with each other because I am somehow
> representing Gentoo, do NOT vote for me.
> 
> The society itself is already brutalized. It is time to no longer
> tolerate such behavior.

Don't you think that it's better to improve the quality of
communications by providing a good example rather than multiplicating
the bad behavior?  Usually violence leads to more violence.  Well,
unless the goal is to hope that one person takes one step too much first
and the other gets the excuse to enforce disciplinary measures.

Don't you think we are very much alike?  I've been 'bullying
the bullies' too in the past.  I didn't ever consider it the right thing
to do, though.  It was an efficient way to reach the goal, yes, but not
the right one.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny




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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Mikle Kolyada]

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Hello,  Thomas

On 26.06.2020 16:50, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:
> What is Gentoo for you? I hope most Gentoo developers agree with me that
> words like that aren't appropriate to describe *anything* in Gentoo.
> Heck, why are you even creating *cases* against people sharing same
> goals and agreed on same code of conduct? Tell us why you are the
> reporter of most ComRel bugs in last 3 years and are even subject of
> most bugs filed by others.

Could you please:

- Stop appealing to the community by using forms like "tell us". Who are
"us"?
As long as I see, you are the only one questioning this.
I believe others can ask themselves if they deem necessary.

-  Slandering people by using wishful thinking approach.
As the ComRel lead I can assert that your statistics has nothing with
the reality.
I am therefore asking you to refrain from any strong statements as long
as you are not
in the possession of the full set of data.
(No matter if this is about mgorny or any other member of the gentoo
community).

Thank you.


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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Aaron Bauman]

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On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:47:17PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Here's another question for the nominees.
> 
> Back when I was on the Council, there was a time that I've been
> approached that my behavior is not appropriate for a public Gentoo
> representative, even if the comments in question had nothing to do with
> the Council matters.
> 
> Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
> lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
> should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they
> have reasons enough to attack others?  Should they not participate
> in flames, unless only to extinguish them?
>

I don't believe anyone should *attack* others. As far as being a "pillar
of the community" let us remember that each of us are human. We have
faults, but overall individuals should strive to lead by example. If
they are in the wrong then they should take responsibility. If they
wronged someone else then they should make that apology to them. 

> Is it considered acceptable that a nominee for election calls other
> developers inhumane or delusional on the public mailing lists?  Is it
> good that he throws false accusations without verifying them?
> 

Of course not, but again we are human and we often let things get the
best of us. The appropriate course of action here is to right that
wrong... some will and some won't.

> Is it fine that yet another nominee runs an election campaign focused
> on attacking other developers, and apparently trying to get votes
> by finding 'a common enemy'?
> 
> Should such people become the public faces of Gentoo?  Or should they
> maybe be professional enough to withdraw their candidacy after
> discrediting themselves in the middle of election?
> 

A choice to remove oneself from the election is purely up to that
individual. Should the circumstances be significant enough (and without
going over "what if's?") then they should absolutely do so.

"to err is human..."

-- 
Cheers,
Aaron

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Re: [gentoo-project] Should Council members be pillars of the community?

[Andreas K. Huettel]

> Today, I would like to ask: do you think that Council members should
> lead the community by example?  Should their reputation be untainted,
> should they be able to withhold their anger even when they believe they
> have reasons enough to attack others?

Yes.

That said, one of the reasons for me personally to leave ComRel was that I 
wanted to be more able to tell people my opinion (and not always have to force 
myself to do that hyper-diplomatically).

ComRel is where standards should be higher than the Council still. If you 
can't keep disagreements within the team, you shouldn't be in it. If you can't 
behave in a way that you demand of others, you shouldn't be in it.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer 
(council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)