[gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Sergei Trofimovich]

Hello all!

On 10 January (in 5 days from now) at 19:00 UTC
Council will meet again at #gentoo-council.

Please provide agenda items you would like council@ to
discuss and vote on as a reply to this email.

To get the idea what usually happens at those meetings
you can have a glance at past meeting notes summary at:
    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Meeting_logs

I forgot to send the call for agenda last week, thus this
will be a shorter round before finalizing the agenda list.

Current agenda so far:

1. Roll call

2. Open bugs with council involvement
    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council#Open_bugs_with_Council_participation

3. Open floor

Thank you!

-- 

  Sergei

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Michał Górny]

On Tue, 2021-01-05 at 18:44 +0000, Sergei Trofimovich wrote:
> Hello all!
> 
> On 10 January (in 5 days from now) at 19:00 UTC
> Council will meet again at #gentoo-council.
> 
> Please provide agenda items you would like council@ to
> discuss and vote on as a reply to this email.
> 
> To get the idea what usually happens at those meetings
> you can have a glance at past meeting notes summary at:
>     https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Meeting_logs
> 
> I forgot to send the call for agenda last week, thus this
> will be a shorter round before finalizing the agenda list.

Back in December, I've send a CoC update:

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/d70acda243e1a4ffa62c573f259c88bc

I'd like to have the Council vote on it.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Thomas Deutschmann]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 354 bytes --]

Hi,

could you please provide a Wiki diff 
(https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct) for your 
motion so everyone knows exactly how the changed CoC will look like when 
we will vote on this?

Thank you!


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 495 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Michał Górny]

On Sun, 2021-01-10 at 01:38 +0100, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> could you please provide a Wiki diff 
> (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct) for your 
> motion so everyone knows exactly how the changed CoC will look like when 
> we will vote on this?

I don't see how this is better than the new point separately but sure. 
I've put it before 'Admit the possibility ...' since that seems related
to the last point, and the last point sounds final-ish.

diff --git a/coc.mediawiki b/coc.mediawiki
index bcff0af..3edbeec 100644
--- a/coc.mediawiki
+++ b/coc.mediawiki
@@ -20,6 +20,7 @@ Things that should be seen:
 * '''Give accurate information in the spirit of being helpful.'''
 * '''Respectfully disagree with or challenge other members.''' The operative word here is respectfully.
 * '''Using the correct forum for your post.''' Bug reports and idle chatter do not belong on the gentoo-dev mailing list; discussion about a wide-ranging change to the tree probably does not belong on Bugzilla. Different fora will also have different standards of behaviour – a joke that is perfectly acceptable on IRC will be taken differently when made on a mailing list.
+* '''Use concise and clear language.''' The Gentoo community includes people from all over the world, with varying English skills and available time.
 * '''Admit the possibility of fault and respect different point of views.''' Noone is perfect – you will get things wrong occasionally. Don't be afraid to admit this. Similarly, while something may seem perfectly obvious to you, others may see it differently.
 * '''If you screw up, take responsibility for your actions.'''
 


-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[desultory]

On 01/10/21 04:24, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sun, 2021-01-10 at 01:38 +0100, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> could you please provide a Wiki diff 
>> (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct) for your 
>> motion so everyone knows exactly how the changed CoC will look like when 
>> we will vote on this?
> 
> I don't see how this is better than the new point separately but sure. 
> I've put it before 'Admit the possibility ...' since that seems related
> to the last point, and the last point sounds final-ish.
> 
> diff --git a/coc.mediawiki b/coc.mediawiki
> index bcff0af..3edbeec 100644
> --- a/coc.mediawiki
> +++ b/coc.mediawiki
> @@ -20,6 +20,7 @@ Things that should be seen:
>  * '''Give accurate information in the spirit of being helpful.'''
>  * '''Respectfully disagree with or challenge other members.''' The operative word here is respectfully.
>  * '''Using the correct forum for your post.''' Bug reports and idle chatter do not belong on the gentoo-dev mailing list; discussion about a wide-ranging change to the tree probably does not belong on Bugzilla. Different fora will also have different standards of behaviour – a joke that is perfectly acceptable on IRC will be taken differently when made on a mailing list.
> +* '''Use concise and clear language.''' The Gentoo community includes people from all over the world, with varying English skills and available time.
>  * '''Admit the possibility of fault and respect different point of views.''' Noone is perfect – you will get things wrong occasionally. Don't be afraid to admit this. Similarly, while something may seem perfectly obvious to you, others may see it differently.
>  * '''If you screw up, take responsibility for your actions.'''
>  
> 
> 
So, just to be clear, you are pushing a suggestion which received much
more negative feedback than positive and which you avoid following
whenever possible?

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[David Seifert]

On Sun, 2021-01-10 at 23:57 -0500, desultory wrote:
> 
> So, just to be clear, you are pushing a suggestion which received much
> more negative feedback than positive and which you avoid following
> whenever possible?

Kinda odd then that it was accepted by the council unanimously, don't
you think?

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Aaron Bauman]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 659 bytes --]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 01:41:05PM +0100, David Seifert wrote:
> On Sun, 2021-01-10 at 23:57 -0500, desultory wrote:
> > 
> > So, just to be clear, you are pushing a suggestion which received much
> > more negative feedback than positive and which you avoid following
> > whenever possible?
> 
> Kinda odd then that it was accepted by the council unanimously, don't
> you think?
> 
>

The acceptance by the council is irrelevant to desultory's reply here.

Oddly, I agree with desultory's response and implication here.

Of course, like any rule/regulation/suggestion/CoC, we are all guilty at
one time or another of violating it.

-Aaron

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 9:56 AM Aaron Bauman <bman@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 01:41:05PM +0100, David Seifert wrote:
> > On Sun, 2021-01-10 at 23:57 -0500, desultory wrote:
> > >
> > > So, just to be clear, you are pushing a suggestion which received much
> > > more negative feedback than positive and which you avoid following
> > > whenever possible?
> >
> > Kinda odd then that it was accepted by the council unanimously, don't
> > you think?
> >
> >
>
> The acceptance by the council is irrelevant to desultory's reply here.
>
> Oddly, I agree with desultory's response and implication here.
>
> Of course, like any rule/regulation/suggestion/CoC, we are all guilty at
> one time or another of violating it.

The requirement to post agenda items to the list in advance isn't a
requirement that there be consensus before bringing them forward.
After all, the whole reason the Council exists is because not every
decision reaches consensus.

The Council can take into account other views aired on the lists
before making the final decision.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[Thomas Deutschmann]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1132 bytes --]

On 2021-01-11 05:57, desultory wrote:
> So, just to be clear, you are pushing a suggestion which received much
> more negative feedback than positive and which you avoid following
> whenever possible?

General information: Even if a proposed motion has received more 
negative than positive feedback, you are still allowed to ask council to 
vote on your specific motion like others are free to ask council to vote 
on alternative motions instead.

As someone who was also part of the discussion: I for example got 
triggered by the rational paragraph. I was concerned about the idea to 
enforce a specific type of communication like excluding people because 
someone believes this is an unnecessarily long email (*who* decides 
something like that; what are the criteria...). This is not part of the 
change we voted for. From my understanding we only voted on adding a new 
paragraph which doesn't add anything new but clarifies stuff. I 
therefore had no problems to vote for this change.


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 495 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2021-01-10 (late call, meeting this week!)

[James Le Cuirot]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2430 bytes --]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 23:57:23 -0500
desultory <desultory@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 01/10/21 04:24, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Sun, 2021-01-10 at 01:38 +0100, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:  
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> could you please provide a Wiki diff 
> >> (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct) for your 
> >> motion so everyone knows exactly how the changed CoC will look like when 
> >> we will vote on this?  
> > 
> > I don't see how this is better than the new point separately but sure. 
> > I've put it before 'Admit the possibility ...' since that seems related
> > to the last point, and the last point sounds final-ish.
> > 
> > diff --git a/coc.mediawiki b/coc.mediawiki
> > index bcff0af..3edbeec 100644
> > --- a/coc.mediawiki
> > +++ b/coc.mediawiki
> > @@ -20,6 +20,7 @@ Things that should be seen:
> >  * '''Give accurate information in the spirit of being helpful.'''
> >  * '''Respectfully disagree with or challenge other members.''' The operative word here is respectfully.
> >  * '''Using the correct forum for your post.''' Bug reports and idle chatter do not belong on the gentoo-dev mailing list; discussion about a wide-ranging change to the tree probably does not belong on Bugzilla. Different fora will also have different standards of behaviour – a joke that is perfectly acceptable on IRC will be taken differently when made on a mailing list.
> > +* '''Use concise and clear language.''' The Gentoo community includes people from all over the world, with varying English skills and available time.
> >  * '''Admit the possibility of fault and respect different point of views.''' Noone is perfect – you will get things wrong occasionally. Don't be afraid to admit this. Similarly, while something may seem perfectly obvious to you, others may see it differently.
> >  * '''If you screw up, take responsibility for your actions.'''
> >  
> > 
> >   
> So, just to be clear, you are pushing a suggestion which received much
> more negative feedback than positive and which you avoid following
> whenever possible?

I forgot exactly how many threads this spawned but if you're referring
to the concern I raised, I felt it was largely to put rest. I didn't
like the idea of trying to strongly enforce concise language but now
that I see that is intended as a guideline, I'm not so worried.

-- 
James Le Cuirot (chewi)
Gentoo Linux Developer

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]