[gentoo-project] Burden of proof

[gentoo-project] Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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I am going to post some things I have seen from a Council member, and
people can judge whether this is appropriate. First, mgorny derails a
technical conversation to lecture and berate me, saying "now I see why
you've never returned to Gentoo", in #gentoo-portage:

[technical conversation.... ]

2018-02-24 04:48:54     [Arfrever]      drobbins: See this example
(version-conditional exec()):
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/portage.git/tree/pym/portage/process.py?id=39c797992bcdf8403521d8b61bb3e592135b3307#n196
2018-02-24 05:28:01     drobbins        [Arfrever]: yes, so that's all code
that can now be removed.
2018-02-24 05:28:19     drobbins        the concept is that it adds to the
LOC count, doesn't add any functionality
2018-02-24 05:28:46     drobbins        it's an awesome exercise in
backwards compatibility that doesn't have a large benefit on a distro that
is moving to 3.6.
2018-02-24 05:56:09     -->     zmedico (~quassel@gentoo/developer/zmedico)
has joined #gentoo-portage
2018-02-24 07:32:21     --      perfinio1 is now known as perfinion
2018-02-24 08:24:51     mgorny  drobbins: are you convinced someone will
actually remove all the compat cruft?
2018-02-24 08:25:12     mgorny  portage is practically unmaintained, so i'd
rather not make major changes like making upgrades a nightmare for the sake
of few patches
2018-02-24 08:32:44     <--     Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino)
has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-02-24 08:33:05     -->     Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino)
has joined #gentoo-portage
2018-02-24 08:33:41     drobbins        mgorny: yes, I am convinced, and it
just allows a lot of compat code to be dropped.
2018-02-24 08:35:01     drobbins        there is additional work and
complexity involved in adding functionality and maintaining compatibility
with 2.7
2018-02-24 08:35:23     drobbins        so if you feel that portage is not
maintained enough, this will help reduce the work load
2018-02-24 08:35:49     mgorny  'helping reduce the work load' does not
imply the work will actually happen
2018-02-24 08:35:58     mgorny  most important goals so far don't have much
py2/py3 trouble
2018-02-24 08:36:19     mgorny  and adding extra complexity to make things
faster when they need to be made correct first is not helpful
2018-02-24 08:36:34     drobbins        there is an effort to integrate
async functionality into portage which is hampered by 2.7 compatibility
2018-02-24 08:36:54     drobbins        it actually reduces complexity, but
whatever. It seems you are convinced it's a bad idea.
2018-02-24 08:38:57     drobbins        standardizing on the official async
implementation rather than using a home-grown one for compatibility with
python 2.7 seems like a win to me
2018-02-24 08:39:11     mgorny  i'd like to see async working correctly
first
2018-02-24 08:39:25     drobbins        what do you mean?
2018-02-24 08:39:36     mgorny  there is the socks proxy for distcc written
using async, and it has serious exception handling problems
2018-02-24 08:39:48     mgorny  or signal handling
2018-02-24 08:40:24     <--     Zero_Chaos
(~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos)
has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-02-24 08:40:53     drobbins        I don't think that is indicative of
the python async implementation

[mgorny loses it....]

2018-02-24 08:41:02     -->     Zero_Chaos
(~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos)
has joined #gentoo-portage
2018-02-24 08:41:41     mgorny  w/e
2018-02-24 08:41:47     mgorny  portage API is a horrible pile of cheap
hacks
2018-02-24 08:41:53     mgorny  that needs to be fixed to make it useful
2018-02-24 08:42:02     mgorny  not added more hacks so that cheap hacks
may be a bit faster
2018-02-24 08:42:11     drobbins        agreed
2018-02-24 08:42:25     drobbins        that is a good reason to use an
actual language feature instead of a roll-your-own async implementation
2018-02-24 08:42:36     drobbins        since one is now available.
2018-02-24 08:43:02     drobbins        I needed to get my tree
regeneration going a lot faster. It now takes 65 mins instead of over 4
hours.
2018-02-24 08:43:34     drobbins        I think that zmedico is trying to
do things not as hacks but have a strategic plan for implementing new
technology
2018-02-24 08:43:51     mgorny  so you had a broken scripting, and instead
of fixing it you're adding hacks to portage to workaround your problem
2018-02-24 08:44:03     drobbins        how was my scripting broken?
2018-02-24 08:44:07     drobbins        since you know so much
2018-02-24 08:44:07     mgorny  (protip: egencache has --jobs)
2018-02-24 08:44:32     drobbins        protip: egencache does not function
when you are working on assembling trees that you haven't generated
metadata for yet
2018-02-24 08:44:47     mgorny  then you should've generated the metadata
first
2018-02-24 08:44:54     drobbins        and protip: don't protip me
2018-02-24 08:45:19     mgorny  (or used trees with metadata)
2018-02-24 08:45:19     mgorny  (or shouldn't be assembling stuff in the
first place)
2018-02-24 08:45:19     drobbins        oh yes, you are right.
2018-02-24 08:45:28     drobbins        thanks for the correction ;)
2018-02-24 08:45:55     mgorny  the multi-repo model has implemented for a
reason
2018-02-24 08:45:56     drobbins        anything else you'd like to correct
me on?
2018-02-24 08:46:49     mgorny  your attitude
2018-02-24 08:47:04     drobbins        what is wrong with my attitude?
2018-02-24 08:47:15     mgorny  now i see why you've never really returned
to gentoo
2018-02-24 08:47:21      *      mgorny out
2018-02-24 08:47:23     <--     mgorny (~quassel@gentoo/developer/mgorny)
has left #gentoo-portage ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably.
Anywhere.")
2018-02-24 08:48:58     drobbins        I agree, mgorny out.
2018-02-24 08:49:46     drobbins        why does he get so pissed all the
time?
2018-02-24 08:51:35     zmedico that's a good question
2018-02-24 08:52:07     slyfox_ i don't think it's you specifically
2018-02-24 08:53:56     zmedico psychology is a complex topic

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[gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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More burden-of-proof related stuff. Please fact-check this. This is an
excerpt from a 1:1 IRC conversation between me an mgorny, regarding
shentino:

2017-12-23 08:34:40     mgorny  so, without skipping into details, i'm
going to just note that i have seen a lot of evidence to support what i'm
going to say
2017-12-23 08:35:14     mgorny  shentino is basically some guy who wants to
work at Google, and heard that Google recruiters are monitoring Gentoo, so
he wants to join
2017-12-23 08:35:52     mgorny  except he has zero skills, zero will to do
anything and is basically behaving like a elementary school child
2017-12-23 08:36:56     mgorny  he has had over a dozen potential mentors,
lying to every one that he doesn't know why the previous one rejected him
2017-12-23 08:37:04     drobbins        it seems like his motivation is
kind of secondary, we can only guess as to what his motivation might be
2017-12-23 08:37:29     mgorny  every time he doesn't know what to do, the
mentors spends a lot of time suggesting options, he promises he'll do
something
2017-12-23 08:37:41     mgorny  but he never ever does anything, except for
talking more and throwing more excuses
2017-12-23 08:37:49     drobbins        I had a guy like this in funtoo
2017-12-23 08:38:00     drobbins        he was a nice guy, always trying to
be friendly and self-deprecating
2017-12-23 08:38:06     drobbins        but he never DID anything
2017-12-23 08:38:08     drobbins        he just said he would
2017-12-23 08:38:29     drobbins        and he wanted to have a personal
relationship with me. He was kind of a pathetic person, not saying that to
insult him, that was just how he acted
2017-12-23 08:38:37     mgorny  the only thing he's really ever done was
picking on various rules he found on wiki
2017-12-23 08:38:56     mgorny  he admitted to me personally that he's
looking for a loophole to get into gentoo without actually contributing


On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 12:13 AM, Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:

> I am going to post some things I have seen from a Council member, and
> people can judge whether this is appropriate. First, mgorny derails a
> technical conversation to lecture and berate me, saying "now I see why
> you've never returned to Gentoo", in #gentoo-portage:
>
> [technical conversation.... ]
>
> 2018-02-24 04:48:54     [Arfrever]      drobbins: See this example
> (version-conditional exec()): https://gitweb.gentoo.org/
> proj/portage.git/tree/pym/portage/process.py?id=
> 39c797992bcdf8403521d8b61bb3e592135b3307#n196
> 2018-02-24 05:28:01     drobbins        [Arfrever]: yes, so that's all
> code that can now be removed.
> 2018-02-24 05:28:19     drobbins        the concept is that it adds to the
> LOC count, doesn't add any functionality
> 2018-02-24 05:28:46     drobbins        it's an awesome exercise in
> backwards compatibility that doesn't have a large benefit on a distro that
> is moving to 3.6.
> 2018-02-24 05:56:09     -->     zmedico (~quassel@gentoo/developer/zmedico)
> has joined #gentoo-portage
> 2018-02-24 07:32:21     --      perfinio1 is now known as perfinion
> 2018-02-24 08:24:51     mgorny  drobbins: are you convinced someone will
> actually remove all the compat cruft?
> 2018-02-24 08:25:12     mgorny  portage is practically unmaintained, so
> i'd rather not make major changes like making upgrades a nightmare for the
> sake of few patches
> 2018-02-24 08:32:44     <--     Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino)
> has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
> 2018-02-24 08:33:05     -->     Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/shentino)
> has joined #gentoo-portage
> 2018-02-24 08:33:41     drobbins        mgorny: yes, I am convinced, and
> it just allows a lot of compat code to be dropped.
> 2018-02-24 08:35:01     drobbins        there is additional work and
> complexity involved in adding functionality and maintaining compatibility
> with 2.7
> 2018-02-24 08:35:23     drobbins        so if you feel that portage is not
> maintained enough, this will help reduce the work load
> 2018-02-24 08:35:49     mgorny  'helping reduce the work load' does not
> imply the work will actually happen
> 2018-02-24 08:35:58     mgorny  most important goals so far don't have
> much py2/py3 trouble
> 2018-02-24 08:36:19     mgorny  and adding extra complexity to make things
> faster when they need to be made correct first is not helpful
> 2018-02-24 08:36:34     drobbins        there is an effort to integrate
> async functionality into portage which is hampered by 2.7 compatibility
> 2018-02-24 08:36:54     drobbins        it actually reduces complexity,
> but whatever. It seems you are convinced it's a bad idea.
> 2018-02-24 08:38:57     drobbins        standardizing on the official
> async implementation rather than using a home-grown one for compatibility
> with python 2.7 seems like a win to me
> 2018-02-24 08:39:11     mgorny  i'd like to see async working correctly
> first
> 2018-02-24 08:39:25     drobbins        what do you mean?
> 2018-02-24 08:39:36     mgorny  there is the socks proxy for distcc
> written using async, and it has serious exception handling problems
> 2018-02-24 08:39:48     mgorny  or signal handling
> 2018-02-24 08:40:24     <--     Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos)
> has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
> 2018-02-24 08:40:53     drobbins        I don't think that is indicative
> of the python async implementation
>
> [mgorny loses it....]
>
> 2018-02-24 08:41:02     -->     Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/developer/pentoo/zerochaos)
> has joined #gentoo-portage
> 2018-02-24 08:41:41     mgorny  w/e
> 2018-02-24 08:41:47     mgorny  portage API is a horrible pile of cheap
> hacks
> 2018-02-24 08:41:53     mgorny  that needs to be fixed to make it useful
> 2018-02-24 08:42:02     mgorny  not added more hacks so that cheap hacks
> may be a bit faster
> 2018-02-24 08:42:11     drobbins        agreed
> 2018-02-24 08:42:25     drobbins        that is a good reason to use an
> actual language feature instead of a roll-your-own async implementation
> 2018-02-24 08:42:36     drobbins        since one is now available.
> 2018-02-24 08:43:02     drobbins        I needed to get my tree
> regeneration going a lot faster. It now takes 65 mins instead of over 4
> hours.
> 2018-02-24 08:43:34     drobbins        I think that zmedico is trying to
> do things not as hacks but have a strategic plan for implementing new
> technology
> 2018-02-24 08:43:51     mgorny  so you had a broken scripting, and instead
> of fixing it you're adding hacks to portage to workaround your problem
> 2018-02-24 08:44:03     drobbins        how was my scripting broken?
> 2018-02-24 08:44:07     drobbins        since you know so much
> 2018-02-24 08:44:07     mgorny  (protip: egencache has --jobs)
> 2018-02-24 08:44:32     drobbins        protip: egencache does not
> function when you are working on assembling trees that you haven't
> generated metadata for yet
> 2018-02-24 08:44:47     mgorny  then you should've generated the metadata
> first
> 2018-02-24 08:44:54     drobbins        and protip: don't protip me
> 2018-02-24 08:45:19     mgorny  (or used trees with metadata)
> 2018-02-24 08:45:19     mgorny  (or shouldn't be assembling stuff in the
> first place)
> 2018-02-24 08:45:19     drobbins        oh yes, you are right.
> 2018-02-24 08:45:28     drobbins        thanks for the correction ;)
> 2018-02-24 08:45:55     mgorny  the multi-repo model has implemented for a
> reason
> 2018-02-24 08:45:56     drobbins        anything else you'd like to
> correct me on?
> 2018-02-24 08:46:49     mgorny  your attitude
> 2018-02-24 08:47:04     drobbins        what is wrong with my attitude?
> 2018-02-24 08:47:15     mgorny  now i see why you've never really returned
> to gentoo
> 2018-02-24 08:47:21      *      mgorny out
> 2018-02-24 08:47:23     <--     mgorny (~quassel@gentoo/developer/mgorny)
> has left #gentoo-portage ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably.
> Anywhere.")
> 2018-02-24 08:48:58     drobbins        I agree, mgorny out.
> 2018-02-24 08:49:46     drobbins        why does he get so pissed all the
> time?
> 2018-02-24 08:51:35     zmedico that's a good question
> 2018-02-24 08:52:07     slyfox_ i don't think it's you specifically
> 2018-02-24 08:53:56     zmedico psychology is a complex topic
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Michał Górny]

W dniu pon, 02.04.2018 o godzinie 00∶19 -0600, użytkownik Daniel Robbins
napisał:
> More burden-of-proof related stuff. Please fact-check this. This is an
> excerpt from a 1:1 IRC conversation between me an mgorny, regarding
> shentino:
> 
> 2017-12-23 08:34:40     mgorny  so, without skipping into details, i'm
> going to just note that i have seen a lot of evidence to support what i'm
> going to say
> 2017-12-23 08:35:14     mgorny  shentino is basically some guy who wants to
> work at Google, and heard that Google recruiters are monitoring Gentoo, so
> he wants to join
> 2017-12-23 08:35:52     mgorny  except he has zero skills, zero will to do
> anything and is basically behaving like a elementary school child
> 2017-12-23 08:36:56     mgorny  he has had over a dozen potential mentors,
> lying to every one that he doesn't know why the previous one rejected him
> 2017-12-23 08:37:04     drobbins        it seems like his motivation is
> kind of secondary, we can only guess as to what his motivation might be
> 2017-12-23 08:37:29     mgorny  every time he doesn't know what to do, the
> mentors spends a lot of time suggesting options, he promises he'll do
> something
> 2017-12-23 08:37:41     mgorny  but he never ever does anything, except for
> talking more and throwing more excuses
> 2017-12-23 08:37:49     drobbins        I had a guy like this in funtoo
> 2017-12-23 08:38:00     drobbins        he was a nice guy, always trying to
> be friendly and self-deprecating
> 2017-12-23 08:38:06     drobbins        but he never DID anything
> 2017-12-23 08:38:08     drobbins        he just said he would
> 2017-12-23 08:38:29     drobbins        and he wanted to have a personal
> relationship with me. He was kind of a pathetic person, not saying that to
> insult him, that was just how he acted
> 2017-12-23 08:38:37     mgorny  the only thing he's really ever done was
> picking on various rules he found on wiki
> 2017-12-23 08:38:56     mgorny  he admitted to me personally that he's
> looking for a loophole to get into gentoo without actually contributing
> 

So I see this is how you respect requests for discretion and keep to
your word. I have no further interest in any kind of interaction with
you, and I would like to request that you leave this community because
you're clearly not interested in anything but attacking people
and increasing the hostility.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Christopher Díaz Riveros]

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Daniel,

El lun, 02-04-2018 a las 00:19 -0600, Daniel Robbins escribió:
> More burden-of-proof related stuff. Please fact-check this. This is
> an excerpt from a 1:1 IRC conversation between me an mgorny,
> regarding shentino:
> 
> 2017-12-23 08:34:40     mgorny  so, without skipping into details,
> i'm going to just note that i have seen a lot of evidence to support
> what i'm going to say
> 2017-12-23 08:35:14     mgorny  shentino is basically some guy who
> wants to work at Google, and heard that Google recruiters are
> monitoring Gentoo, so he wants to join
> 2017-12-23 08:35:52     mgorny  except he has zero skills, zero will
> to do anything and is basically behaving like a elementary school
> child
> 2017-12-23 08:36:56     mgorny  he has had over a dozen potential
> mentors, lying to every one that he doesn't know why the previous one
> rejected him
> 2017-12-23 08:37:04     drobbins        it seems like his motivation
> is kind of secondary, we can only guess as to what his motivation
> might be
> 2017-12-23 08:37:29     mgorny  every time he doesn't know what to
> do, the mentors spends a lot of time suggesting options, he promises
> he'll do something
> 2017-12-23 08:37:41     mgorny  but he never ever does anything,
> except for talking more and throwing more excuses
> 2017-12-23 08:37:49     drobbins        I had a guy like this in
> funtoo
> 2017-12-23 08:38:00     drobbins        he was a nice guy, always
> trying to be friendly and self-deprecating
> 2017-12-23 08:38:06     drobbins        but he never DID anything
> 2017-12-23 08:38:08     drobbins        he just said he would
> 2017-12-23 08:38:29     drobbins        and he wanted to have a
> personal relationship with me. He was kind of a pathetic person, not
> saying that to insult him, that was just how he acted
> 2017-12-23 08:38:37     mgorny  the only thing he's really ever done
> was picking on various rules he found on wiki
> 2017-12-23 08:38:56     mgorny  he admitted to me personally that
> he's looking for a loophole to get into gentoo without actually
> contributing
> 

This is a totally off-topic post, not just from the list, but as a
common sense behaviour. If someone trusts you enough to pm something to
you, right or wrong, you can't show private conversations in the
mailing list, this is something for ComRel to review, in case someone
really tries solve the issue.

> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 12:13 AM, Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org>
> wrote:
> > I am going to post some things I have seen from a Council member,
> > and people can judge whether this is appropriate. First, mgorny
> > derails a technical conversation to lecture and berate me, saying
> > "now I see why you've never returned to Gentoo", in #gentoo-
> > portage:
> > 

What I can see from this is that you really have some personal issues
with mgorny. Things that you should, as ComRel, stated: "try to solve
the issue among themselves in a civil manner before they reach out to
Community Relations"[1]. But since it's obvious that you haven't, this
should escalate to ComRel.

> > [technical conversation.... ]
> > 
> > 2018-02-24 04:48:54     [Arfrever]      drobbins: See this example
> > (version-conditional exec()): https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/portag
> > e.git/tree/pym/portage/process.py?id=39c797992bcdf8403521d8b61bb3e5
> > 92135b3307#n196
> > 2018-02-24 05:28:01     drobbins        [Arfrever]: yes, so that's
> > all code that can now be removed.
> > 2018-02-24 05:28:19     drobbins        the concept is that it adds
> > to the LOC count, doesn't add any functionality
> > 2018-02-24 05:28:46     drobbins        it's an awesome exercise in
> > backwards compatibility that doesn't have a large benefit on a
> > distro that is moving to 3.6.
> > 2018-02-24 05:56:09     -->     zmedico (~quassel@gentoo/developer/
> > zmedico) has joined #gentoo-portage
> > 2018-02-24 07:32:21     --      perfinio1 is now known as perfinion
> > 2018-02-24 08:24:51     mgorny  drobbins: are you convinced someone
> > will actually remove all the compat cruft?
> > 2018-02-24 08:25:12     mgorny  portage is practically
> > unmaintained, so i'd rather not make major changes like making
> > upgrades a nightmare for the sake of few patches
> > 2018-02-24 08:32:44     <--     Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/sh
> > entino) has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
> > 2018-02-24 08:33:05     -->     Shentino (~Shentino@unaffiliated/sh
> > entino) has joined #gentoo-portage
> > 2018-02-24 08:33:41     drobbins        mgorny: yes, I am
> > convinced, and it just allows a lot of compat code to be dropped.
> > 2018-02-24 08:35:01     drobbins        there is additional work
> > and complexity involved in adding functionality and maintaining
> > compatibility with 2.7
> > 2018-02-24 08:35:23     drobbins        so if you feel that portage
> > is not maintained enough, this will help reduce the work load
> > 2018-02-24 08:35:49     mgorny  'helping reduce the work load' does
> > not imply the work will actually happen
> > 2018-02-24 08:35:58     mgorny  most important goals so far don't
> > have much py2/py3 trouble
> > 2018-02-24 08:36:19     mgorny  and adding extra complexity to make
> > things faster when they need to be made correct first is not
> > helpful
> > 2018-02-24 08:36:34     drobbins        there is an effort to
> > integrate async functionality into portage which is hampered by 2.7
> > compatibility
> > 2018-02-24 08:36:54     drobbins        it actually reduces
> > complexity, but whatever. It seems you are convinced it's a bad
> > idea.
> > 2018-02-24 08:38:57     drobbins        standardizing on the
> > official async implementation rather than using a home-grown one
> > for compatibility with python 2.7 seems like a win to me
> > 2018-02-24 08:39:11     mgorny  i'd like to see async working
> > correctly first
> > 2018-02-24 08:39:25     drobbins        what do you mean?
> > 2018-02-24 08:39:36     mgorny  there is the socks proxy for distcc
> > written using async, and it has serious exception handling problems
> > 2018-02-24 08:39:48     mgorny  or signal handling
> > 2018-02-24 08:40:24     <--     Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/devel
> > oper/pentoo/zerochaos) has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
> > 2018-02-24 08:40:53     drobbins        I don't think that is
> > indicative of the python async implementation
> > 
> > [mgorny loses it....]
> > 
> > 2018-02-24 08:41:02     -->     Zero_Chaos (~zerochaos@gentoo/devel
> > oper/pentoo/zerochaos) has joined #gentoo-portage
> > 2018-02-24 08:41:41     mgorny  w/e
> > 2018-02-24 08:41:47     mgorny  portage API is a horrible pile of
> > cheap hacks
> > 2018-02-24 08:41:53     mgorny  that needs to be fixed to make it
> > useful
> > 2018-02-24 08:42:02     mgorny  not added more hacks so that cheap
> > hacks may be a bit faster
> > 2018-02-24 08:42:11     drobbins        agreed
> > 2018-02-24 08:42:25     drobbins        that is a good reason to
> > use an actual language feature instead of a roll-your-own async
> > implementation
> > 2018-02-24 08:42:36     drobbins        since one is now available.
> > 2018-02-24 08:43:02     drobbins        I needed to get my tree
> > regeneration going a lot faster. It now takes 65 mins instead of
> > over 4 hours.
> > 2018-02-24 08:43:34     drobbins        I think that zmedico is
> > trying to do things not as hacks but have a strategic plan for
> > implementing new technology
> > 2018-02-24 08:43:51     mgorny  so you had a broken scripting, and
> > instead of fixing it you're adding hacks to portage to workaround
> > your problem
> > 2018-02-24 08:44:03     drobbins        how was my scripting
> > broken?
> > 2018-02-24 08:44:07     drobbins        since you know so much
> > 2018-02-24 08:44:07     mgorny  (protip: egencache has --jobs)
> > 2018-02-24 08:44:32     drobbins        protip: egencache does not
> > function when you are working on assembling trees that you haven't
> > generated metadata for yet
> > 2018-02-24 08:44:47     mgorny  then you should've generated the
> > metadata first
> > 2018-02-24 08:44:54     drobbins        and protip: don't protip me
> > 2018-02-24 08:45:19     mgorny  (or used trees with metadata)
> > 2018-02-24 08:45:19     mgorny  (or shouldn't be assembling stuff
> > in the first place)
> > 2018-02-24 08:45:19     drobbins        oh yes, you are right.
> > 2018-02-24 08:45:28     drobbins        thanks for the correction
> > ;)
> > 2018-02-24 08:45:55     mgorny  the multi-repo model has
> > implemented for a reason
> > 2018-02-24 08:45:56     drobbins        anything else you'd like to
> > correct me on?
> > 2018-02-24 08:46:49     mgorny  your attitude
> > 2018-02-24 08:47:04     drobbins        what is wrong with my
> > attitude?
> > 2018-02-24 08:47:15     mgorny  now i see why you've never really
> > returned to gentoo
> > 2018-02-24 08:47:21      *      mgorny out
> > 2018-02-24 08:47:23     <--     mgorny
> > (~quassel@gentoo/developer/mgorny) has left #gentoo-portage ("http:
> > //quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
> > 2018-02-24 08:48:58     drobbins        I agree, mgorny out.
> > 2018-02-24 08:49:46     drobbins        why does he get so pissed
> > all the time?
> > 2018-02-24 08:51:35     zmedico that's a good question
> > 2018-02-24 08:52:07     slyfox_ i don't think it's you specifically
> > 2018-02-24 08:53:56     zmedico psychology is a complex topic

as Zac and Sergei stated, pshycology is complex, and this wasn't
supposed to be an 'against drobbins' attack.

You need to understand that people in Council, Trustees, ComRel, and
any other project in Gentoo are volunteers, they offer time and work
for free, and the most important thing, they are *humans*. 

_You_ can say that this is your Burden of proof that mgorny is not
capable of being a Council member, but in the same line, _your post_
shows that you are neither in position to be a good Council member or
project lead, at least that's just _my_ opinion about this post.

[1]:https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel#When_should_community_r
elations_be_involved.3F
-- 
Christopher Díaz Riveros
Gentoo Linux Developer
Gentoo Security Project Lead
GPG Fingerprint: E517 5ECB 8152 98E4 FEBC  2BAA 4DBB D10F 0FDD 2547

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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Mgorny oversees comrel, that is the problem. And this is not exactly "news"
to anyone -- this is a known, chronic issue on the project that for
whatever reason has not been addressed.

I have nothing personal against Michal, in fact when "returning" to Gentoo
I tried to mentor him, and I have made a pretty significant effort to help
him with various challenges, as well as help him in any way I can by trying
to tackle things that are stressing him out with Gentoo.

Despite these efforts, I seem to not be immune from his irrational anger
and verbal abuse, and I think that he is an example of how Council needs
some accountability to an outside group.

It is a catch-22 situation when people demand I support my arguments, and
then when I support my arguments, I get attacked for doing so.

Best,

Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 16:54, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> Mgorny oversees comrel, that is the problem. And this is not exactly "news"
> to anyone -- this is a known, chronic issue on the project that for
> whatever reason has not been addressed.

Hi,

Comrel members are listed [here][1], you should maybe avoid making such 
misleading statements since they could be considered an [actionable][2] 
breach of our code of conduct (and they are overall bad taste).

Consider it a friendly warning for now, but you might be prevented from 
posting on the mailing list if you keep behaving in such way.

lu - donning his comrel hat

[1]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel
[2]: 
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel#Disciplinary_Actions_for_direct_CoC_violations

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 02/04/2018 16:54, Daniel Robbins wrote:
>>
>> Mgorny oversees comrel, that is the problem. And this is not exactly
>> "news"
>> to anyone -- this is a known, chronic issue on the project that for
>> whatever reason has not been addressed.
>
> Comrel members are listed [here][1]

I'm replying here mainly to clarify how things work for those who may
not understand.

To be fair the Council does oversee comrel, sort-of.

To some extent Council oversees everything.  For QA this is formalized
with the lead being confirmed by Council.  There has been discussion
of doing the same with Comrel, though I don't think this has happened
yet.

It should be understand by all that the Council has power
collectively, but not individually.  Individual Council members do not
have any special authority.  Collectively a majority of the Council
can pass resolutions which are authoritative.  Now, sometimes those
resolutions empower individuals (often Council members) to do certain
actions to implement changes, so to that extent there can be
individual power exercised.  However, in general Council members try
to make it clear when this is the case, and should always be able to
point back to a Council vote.

Council members don't have any special authority as individuals to go
and ask projects to do certain things.  In this sense they're actually
weaker than positions like QA/Comrel, especially their leads.\

The Trustees operate similarly, though Officers have more of an
individual role (and sometimes the same people wear both hats).

In my experience Comrel looks to the Council for some level of
guidance, but for the most part Council members who aren't in Comrel
have no idea what specific cases they're working on unless there is an
appeal.  I don't think anybody is so beholden to their role on Comrel
that they're quaking in fear at the idea of upsetting a Council
member.  The reality is that most elected to Council tend to be chosen
because they aren't seen as letting grudges influence decisions, and
most seem to regard Comrel as a pretty thankless job.

I will also generally say that for Comrel to take any kind of serious
action against somebody (bans, removal of dev status, etc) there needs
to be a pretty severe infraction.  It has only happened once or twice
in the last 5 years or so to my knowledge, and not without
controversy.  There are some who argue that this was too much, and
others who argue that it isn't enough.  I tend to fall more in the
latter camp, but when individuals are seen to behave in undesirable
ways with little being done, I think that this should be seen more as
the norm than any kind of special treatment.  I don't think that is a
good thing, but this is a topic that hasn't been easy to find a
balance with, and I don't know that mine is the majority opinion.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 20:33, Rich Freeman wrote:
> In my experience Comrel looks to the Council for some level of
> guidance, but for the most part Council members who aren't in Comrel
> have no idea what specific cases they're working on unless there is an
> appeal.  I don't think anybody is so beholden to their role on Comrel
> that they're quaking in fear at the idea of upsetting a Council
> member.  The reality is that most elected to Council tend to be chosen
> because they aren't seen as letting grudges influence decisions, and
> most seem to regard Comrel as a pretty thankless job.

Not sure where this experience comes from.

Comrel is independent, its procedures are documented in the [wiki] page.
The Council interaction with Comrel is mainly related to long-term 
actions appeals.

Comrel, as stated in on the [wiki] page and also many many many times 
all over, focuses on defusing situations when possible.

Long-term disciplinary actions happen quite rarely since luckily our 
community has people behaving decently and even short-term time-outs to 
cool-off people aren't dished that often.

Given that we have to act with some additional level of secrecy mainly 
to prevent having reporters enjoying some level of retaliation outside 
Gentoo by the reported, I can understand there are a number of 
assumptions and wild ideas being spun and run.

Please spend a little time to read the fine document :)

lu

[wiki]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:


> I'm replying here mainly to clarify how things work for those who may
> not understand.
>
> To be fair the Council does oversee comrel, sort-of.
>
> To some extent Council oversees everything.  For QA this is formalized
> with the lead being confirmed by Council.  There has been discussion
> of doing the same with Comrel, though I don't think this has happened
> yet.


Thanks for your post, it is very informative and helpful.

In may case, I consider this thread to be "fair game" considering the
frothing-at-the-mouth vile responses from mgorny, trying to spread FUD that
I am coming back to take over the project, and the 'proceduralitis analus'
responses from ulm, where he tries to pretend he's offended at everything
and his silly attempts to create a false narrative where I am calling
everyone assholes, insulting everyone, etc etc.

Clearly, these guys don't feel beholden to anyone, ComRel or otherwise, in
terms of their conduct, so why should I have to be polite too? We can just
'get it on'. They set the standard -- I am simply responding in kind. At
least I am backing up my claims with actual logs, and my claims happen to
be true.

And everyone -- to be clear, I am only calling mgorny and ulm assholes, and
anyone who thinks that they are awesome. Mgorny is of the large, smelly
variety, and ulm is cute and pink, somewhat more pleasant... but we all
know what species of body part they are. And I am of the opinion that the
Gentoo development motto should be "we don't do anal." I'm willing to do my
part to make that happen. Also, that slogan would work really well on a
t-shirt. "Gentoo Development Team: We don't do anal". Let's define a
culture that values friendliness and fun. What cooler way than to have a
dev team t-shirt with that slogan on it?

-Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Virgil Dupras]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:49:25 -0600
Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:

> [obscene attacks]

Regardless of the merit of anything that was said in this way-larger-than-it-should topic(-cluster), you had already crossed the line once, vulgarity-wise, was warned, and came back with something even more vulgar.

None of your interlocutors even came close in terms of vulgarity. This is beyond childish retaliation, it's a gratuitous, vulgar attack and is objectively unacceptable.

I fully expect Comrel to take action. Subscribers of this list (gentoo users!) shouldn't have to waste time reading this. This is surreal.

Regards,
Virgil Dupras

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Montag, 2. April 2018, 22:14:11 CEST schrieb Virgil Dupras:
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:49:25 -0600
> 
> Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:
> > [obscene attacks]
> 
> Regardless of the merit of anything that was said in this
> way-larger-than-it-should topic(-cluster), you had already crossed the line
> once, vulgarity-wise, was warned, and came back with something even more
> vulgar.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/652240

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Virgil Dupras <hsoft@hardcoded.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:49:25 -0600
> Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:
>
> > [obscene attacks]
>
> Regardless of the merit of anything that was said in this
> way-larger-than-it-should topic(-cluster), you had already crossed the line
> once, vulgarity-wise, was warned, and came back with something even more
> vulgar.
>
> None of your interlocutors even came close in terms of vulgarity. This is
> beyond childish retaliation, it's a gratuitous, vulgar attack and is
> objectively unacceptable.
>

There is already a bug open to ban me from posting to this list for 7 days.
Interestingly, mgorny is on the comrel@gentoo.org, alias, even though he is
not technically part of comrel, of course. It's interesting how far his
tendrils go. He clearly is more than just a passive overseer of comrel.

Sometimes, vulgarity is appropriate. This is one case. Do a YouTube search
for "Assholes are ruining your project" by former developer Donnie
Berkholz. "Asshole" is a term that is used to describe a specific type of
behavior and is taken from Donnie's research.

Best,

Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 22:20, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> There is already a bug open to ban me from posting to this list for 7 days.
> Interestingly, mgorny is on the comrel@gentoo.org, alias, even though he is
> not technically part of comrel, of course. It's interesting how far his
> tendrils go. He clearly is more than just a passive overseer of comrel.

He is not, that is the second time you are issuing quite misleading 
statements.

And I warned you about that already.

Any gentoo dev can grep /var/mail/alias/special-public/comrel if they 
want to confirm.

lu

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Daniel Robbins wrote:

> In may case, I consider this thread to be "fair game" considering the
> frothing-at-the-mouth vile responses from mgorny, trying to spread FUD that I
> am coming back to take over the project, and the 'proceduralitis analus'
> responses from ulm, where he tries to pretend he's offended at everything and
> his silly attempts to create a false narrative where I am calling everyone
> assholes, insulting everyone, etc etc.

> Clearly, these guys don't feel beholden to anyone, ComRel or otherwise, in
> terms of their conduct, so why should I have to be polite too? We can just
> 'get it on'. They set the standard -- I am simply responding in kind. At least
> I am backing up my claims with actual logs, and my claims happen to be true.

> And everyone -- to be clear, I am only calling mgorny and ulm assholes, and
> anyone who thinks that they are awesome. Mgorny is of the large, smelly
> variety, and ulm is cute and pink, somewhat more pleasant... but we all know
> what species of body part they are. And I am of the opinion that the Gentoo
> development motto should be "we don't do anal." I'm willing to do my part to
> make that happen. Also, that slogan would work really well on a t-shirt.
> "Gentoo Development Team: We don't do anal". Let's define a culture that
> values friendliness and fun. What cooler way than to have a dev team t-shirt
> with that slogan on it?

*plonk*

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros <
chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
> What I can see from this is that you really have some personal issues
> with mgorny. Things that you should, as ComRel, stated: "try to solve
> the issue among themselves in a civil manner before they reach out to
> Community Relations"[1]. But since it's obvious that you haven't, this
> should escalate to ComRel.


Actually, I have reached out to mgorny to try to resolve things, so your
assumption is not correct. I am happy to provide full IRC logs of our
conversations since returning to Gentoo, as well as all email exchanges
that we have had. I think that if you look at the full context, you will
see that I was someone who was trying my hardest to help mgorny with
various challenges and I actually took it as my own personal challenge to
try to help mgorny to the point where he can be less stressed and upset. I
believe the logs will demonstrate this.

Despite my efforts, I was the target of his irrational rage in
#gentoo-portage. That was something that was not communicated in my little
snippet. The context of his outburst, and the fact that I was actively
trying to help him make it even more shocking.

I look forward to a Comrel review of these logs and email exchanges and I
am very confident that they will support my case.

Best,

Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 02/04/18 16:12, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
> <chrisadr@gentoo.org <mailto:chrisadr@gentoo.org>> wrote:
>
>
>     What I can see from this is that you really have some personal issues
>     with mgorny. Things that you should, as ComRel, stated: "try to solve
>     the issue among themselves in a civil manner before they reach out to
>     Community Relations"[1]. But since it's obvious that you haven't, this
>     should escalate to ComRel.
>
>
> Actually, I have reached out to mgorny to try to resolve things, so
> your assumption is not correct. I am happy to provide full IRC logs of
> our conversations since returning to Gentoo, as well as all email
> exchanges that we have had. I think that if you look at the full
> context, you will see that I was someone who was trying my hardest to
> help mgorny with various challenges and I actually took it as my own
> personal challenge to try to help mgorny to the point where he can be
> less stressed and upset. I believe the logs will demonstrate this.
>
> Despite my efforts, I was the target of his irrational rage in
> #gentoo-portage. That was something that was not communicated in my
> little snippet. The context of his outburst, and the fact that I was
> actively trying to help him make it even more shocking.
>
> I look forward to a Comrel review of these logs and email exchanges
> and I am very confident that they will support my case.
>
> Best,
>
> Daniel
>
Daniel,

Whilst I applaud your efforts, you clearly haven't spent a lot of time
around Michal. This is his modus-operandi, and whilst not helpful to
many, it has been accepted as the norm around Gentoo. It's not unknown
that you have to have a thick skin to work in Gentoo circles, and this
is an example of why. If you find it a problem, escalate to ComRel, as
procedures allow, but rest assured that whilst mgorny may recuse himself
from any processes, I'm sure his allies will rally to his cause. This is
the Gentoo of now, good luck!
Cheers,

Michael.

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 9:24 AM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:

> Daniel,
>
> Whilst I applaud your efforts, you clearly haven't spent a lot of time
> around Michal. This is his modus-operandi, and whilst not helpful to many,
> it has been accepted as the norm around Gentoo. It's not unknown that you
> have to have a thick skin to work in Gentoo circles, and this is an example
> of why. If you find it a problem, escalate to ComRel, as procedures allow,
> but rest assured that whilst mgorny may recuse himself from any processes,
> I'm sure his allies will rally to his cause. This is the Gentoo of now,
> good luck!
>

I think this is an important issue to address. It is really not about
Michal. It is about the culture of the project. The culture has become so
acidic that it drives away friendly people from participating in important
areas of the project. This will hurt the project long-term and why I am
attempting to intervene.

I believe my proposal will help to address these issues by providing
accountability for Council behavior and by injecting some much-needed user
perspective into Council.

Best,

-Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 02/04/18 16:33, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 9:24 AM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org
> <mailto:m.j.everitt@iee.org>> wrote:
>
>     Daniel,
>
>     Whilst I applaud your efforts, you clearly haven't spent a lot of
>     time around Michal. This is his modus-operandi, and whilst not
>     helpful to many, it has been accepted as the norm around Gentoo.
>     It's not unknown that you have to have a thick skin to work in
>     Gentoo circles, and this is an example of why. If you find it a
>     problem, escalate to ComRel, as procedures allow, but rest assured
>     that whilst mgorny may recuse himself from any processes, I'm sure
>     his allies will rally to his cause. This is the Gentoo of now,
>     good luck!
>
>
> I think this is an important issue to address. It is really not about
> Michal. It is about the culture of the project. The culture has become
> so acidic that it drives away friendly people from participating in
> important areas of the project. This will hurt the project long-term
> and why I am attempting to intervene.
>
> I believe my proposal will help to address these issues by providing
> accountability for Council behavior and by injecting some much-needed
> user perspective into Council.
>
> Best,
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>  
Others have petitioned, others have tried, others have failed. Others
have also gone elsewhere already ...

Those that can keep under the radar enough, tolerate the status-quo and
code away quietly.

I don't see anything changing in my lifetime, and/or the lifetimes of
the present council, whichever is the longer.

You may remember a well-quoted YouTube video from dberkholz on the
matter (whom I met at FODSEM2017 - nice enough bloke). But I don't see
it making any impact anywhere yet!

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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Well, mgorny is now proposing that they give all Gentoo assets back to me,
since I am "lusting" after them.

If this happens, I could in theory set up a new project structure. But I
would be perfectly happy if Gentoo just accepted my proposal!

-Daniel

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 9:43 AM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:

> On 02/04/18 16:33, Daniel Robbins wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 9:24 AM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> Whilst I applaud your efforts, you clearly haven't spent a lot of time
>> around Michal. This is his modus-operandi, and whilst not helpful to many,
>> it has been accepted as the norm around Gentoo. It's not unknown that you
>> have to have a thick skin to work in Gentoo circles, and this is an example
>> of why. If you find it a problem, escalate to ComRel, as procedures allow,
>> but rest assured that whilst mgorny may recuse himself from any processes,
>> I'm sure his allies will rally to his cause. This is the Gentoo of now,
>> good luck!
>>
>
> I think this is an important issue to address. It is really not about
> Michal. It is about the culture of the project. The culture has become so
> acidic that it drives away friendly people from participating in important
> areas of the project. This will hurt the project long-term and why I am
> attempting to intervene.
>
> I believe my proposal will help to address these issues by providing
> accountability for Council behavior and by injecting some much-needed user
> perspective into Council.
>
> Best,
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
>
> Others have petitioned, others have tried, others have failed. Others have
> also gone elsewhere already ...
>
> Those that can keep under the radar enough, tolerate the status-quo and
> code away quietly.
>
> I don't see anything changing in my lifetime, and/or the lifetimes of the
> present council, whichever is the longer.
>
> You may remember a well-quoted YouTube video from dberkholz on the matter
> (whom I met at FODSEM2017 - nice enough bloke). But I don't see it making
> any impact anywhere yet!
>

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros <
chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
> _You_ can say that this is your Burden of proof that mgorny is not
> capable of being a Council member, but in the same line, _your post_
> shows that you are neither in position to be a good Council member or
> project lead, at least that's just _my_ opinion about this post.
>

I am perfectly happy with you having that opinion, because I have never had
any intention of being a Council member or project lead, nor "returning
BDFL" of Gentoo that mgorny insinuates.

Really, you are asking for these kinds of posts to -project you don't deal
with behavioral problems. I am not the first person to post to *this list*
about unaddressed behavioral problems emanating from this individual.

Mgorny has no power over me -- I can easily ignore him in Funtoo. I
actually take no pleasure in these mailing list posts. I find them
unpleasant. I do this for those who mgorny continues to verbally abuse and
make life miserable for, for those he has driven away from the project, or
almost driven away from the project, who apparently don't have a voice
because mgorny is too high up to be held accountable.

Once this is addressed, I go back to Funtoo and leave you alone.

-Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Christopher Díaz Riveros]

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Daniel,

El lun, 02-04-2018 a las 09:23 -0600, Daniel Robbins escribió:
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
> <chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > _You_ can say that this is your Burden of proof that mgorny is not
> > capable of being a Council member, but in the same line, _your
> > post_
> > shows that you are neither in position to be a good Council member
> > or
> > project lead, at least that's just _my_ opinion about this post.
> 
> I am perfectly happy with you having that opinion, because I have
> never had any intention of being a Council member or project lead,
> nor "returning BDFL" of Gentoo that mgorny insinuates.
> 

No Daniel, but the fact is that you have history with Gentoo, even when
you don't see yourself trying to be a "leader", you need to act like
one.

This reminds me some horrible local news from my country, where a
congressman had to made public some videos about corruption that we
suffer as country, that ended up in the resignation of our president.
Maybe he had to leave, but making pressure by using private videos and
then release them to public, was definetly not he correct way to do
that.

This is the fact from you fact-list:

You showed the whole mailing list (and leaved a permanent tracking
file) a conversation that was not previously seen by ComRel (which is
the project who you should try to contact before making this kind of
information public). Even when you are "just another user" here... I
mean, you run Funtoo, you are a public leader, and how could I possibly
trust my leader if he shows private conversations publicly... that's a
fact no matter with whom the conversation is, or what is it about.

> Really, you are asking for these kinds of posts to -project you don't
> deal with behavioral problems. I am not the first person to post to
> *this list* about unaddressed behavioral problems emanating from this
> individual.
> 

Yes, but the fact that you are not the firstone of doing something
doesn't mean that it is the correct way to approach things, and you 
should know that. And maybe, just maybe, if you go through the correct
way you will be the the last person posting this kind of stuff instead
of using the correct approaches.

> Mgorny has no power over me -- I can easily ignore him in Funtoo. I
> actually take no pleasure in these mailing list posts. I find them
> unpleasant. I do this for those who mgorny continues to verbally
> abuse and make life miserable for, for those he has driven away from
> the project, or almost driven away from the project, who apparently
> don't have a voice because mgorny is too high up to be held
> accountable.
> 

Ok, if you think that there is abuse and miserable people, please tell
that to ComRel, not to us. If you believe that you have the correct
amount of information and proofs, go ahead, but please, use the correct
procedures.

> Once this is addressed, I go back to Funtoo and leave you alone.

That's up to you. Gentoo is not perfect, and we have a lot of work to
do, but _I_ think leaving is not the best way, people here try to do
their best to keep gentoo running, and everyone has it's own demons,
but we try to work it together. My intention was never to attack you,
if you saw that way, my apologies, I tried to do what you asked:

-"Judge wheter this is appropriate". But I gave you just my opinion
instead of judging.
-Review the fact-check list.

Best Regards
--- 
Christopher Díaz Riveros
Gentoo Linux Developer
GPG Fingerprint: E517 5ECB 8152 98E4 FEBC  2BAA 4DBB D10F 0FDD 2547

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[R0b0t1]

Hello friends!

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
<chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> El lun, 02-04-2018 a las 09:23 -0600, Daniel Robbins escribió:
>> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
>> <chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > _You_ can say that this is your Burden of proof that mgorny is not
>> > capable of being a Council member, but in the same line, _your
>> > post_
>> > shows that you are neither in position to be a good Council member
>> > or
>> > project lead, at least that's just _my_ opinion about this post.
>>
>> I am perfectly happy with you having that opinion, because I have
>> never had any intention of being a Council member or project lead,
>> nor "returning BDFL" of Gentoo that mgorny insinuates.
>>
>
> No Daniel, but the fact is that you have history with Gentoo, even when
> you don't see yourself trying to be a "leader", you need to act like
> one.
>
> This reminds me some horrible local news from my country, where a
> congressman had to made public some videos about corruption that we
> suffer as country, that ended up in the resignation of our president.
> Maybe he had to leave, but making pressure by using private videos and
> then release them to public, was definetly not he correct way to do
> that.
>
> This is the fact from you fact-list:
>
> You showed the whole mailing list (and leaved a permanent tracking
> file) a conversation that was not previously seen by ComRel (which is
> the project who you should try to contact before making this kind of
> information public). Even when you are "just another user" here... I
> mean, you run Funtoo, you are a public leader, and how could I possibly
> trust my leader if he shows private conversations publicly... that's a
> fact no matter with whom the conversation is, or what is it about.
>

While in general I have no business posting here, I think I should
rephrase what it seems you are saying:

"People should not be held accountable for their actions, because that
might make them feel bad."

I would be hard pressed to find people who agree.


Using the (US) legal system as a guide, if I break the law to obtain
evidence of someone *else* breaking the law, that evidence is
admissible (if I remember correctly) because I am not the government.
However, it is likely I would still be prosecuted for whatever law
that I broke, though in some areas any charges might be waived by
statute.

In a semi-related vein, the majority of US states do not require that
all parties agree to have their correspondence recorded for any of the
participants to record that correspondence.


It stands to reason that if someone sees you behaving in a manner they
think others should be made aware of, society already supports making
others aware of those actions, even if custom would be to keep them
private.

Cheers,
     R0b0t1

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Christopher Díaz Riveros]

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El lun, 02-04-2018 a las 14:11 -0500, R0b0t1 escribió:
> Hello friends!
> 
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
> <chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > El lun, 02-04-2018 a las 09:23 -0600, Daniel Robbins escribió:
> > > On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
> > > <chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > _You_ can say that this is your Burden of proof that mgorny is
> > > > not
> > > > capable of being a Council member, but in the same line, _your
> > > > post_
> > > > shows that you are neither in position to be a good Council
> > > > member
> > > > or
> > > > project lead, at least that's just _my_ opinion about this
> > > > post.
> > > 
> > > I am perfectly happy with you having that opinion, because I have
> > > never had any intention of being a Council member or project
> > > lead,
> > > nor "returning BDFL" of Gentoo that mgorny insinuates.
> > > 
> > 
> > No Daniel, but the fact is that you have history with Gentoo, even
> > when
> > you don't see yourself trying to be a "leader", you need to act
> > like
> > one.
> > 
> > This reminds me some horrible local news from my country, where a
> > congressman had to made public some videos about corruption that we
> > suffer as country, that ended up in the resignation of our
> > president.
> > Maybe he had to leave, but making pressure by using private videos
> > and
> > then release them to public, was definetly not he correct way to do
> > that.
> > 
> > This is the fact from you fact-list:
> > 
> > You showed the whole mailing list (and leaved a permanent tracking
> > file) a conversation that was not previously seen by ComRel (which
> > is
> > the project who you should try to contact before making this kind
> > of
> > information public). Even when you are "just another user" here...
> > I
> > mean, you run Funtoo, you are a public leader, and how could I
> > possibly
> > trust my leader if he shows private conversations publicly...
> > that's a
> > fact no matter with whom the conversation is, or what is it about.
> > 
> 
> While in general I have no business posting here, I think I should
> rephrase what it seems you are saying:
> 
> "People should not be held accountable for their actions, because
> that
> might make them feel bad."
> 
> I would be hard pressed to find people who agree.
> 
> 
> Using the (US) legal system as a guide, if I break the law to obtain
> evidence of someone *else* breaking the law, that evidence is
> admissible (if I remember correctly) because I am not the government.
> However, it is likely I would still be prosecuted for whatever law
> that I broke, though in some areas any charges might be waived by
> statute.
> 
> In a semi-related vein, the majority of US states do not require that
> all parties agree to have their correspondence recorded for any of
> the
> participants to record that correspondence.
> 
> 
> It stands to reason that if someone sees you behaving in a manner
> they
> think others should be made aware of, society already supports making
> others aware of those actions, even if custom would be to keep them
> private.
> 

You may not remember correctly. In some cases evidence as this may be
admissible (i agree with that), but that evidence must have a predicate
with it. What if all those "logs" are not authentic? (I'm not saying I
personally believe that, but that's a valid assumption) This is an
internal issue between a group of individuals, let's say just for
example mgorny, drobbins and maybe those who Daniel is helping to stop
the _abuse_.

Now, *abuse* is a strong word, and those who read the list may or may
not be aware of the whole situation and the whole context from that
word. Some of them may even take a side in this discussion and start to
think that one or both parties are doing things wrong. That is not
correct because this is not the place to bring inter personal issues,
as the mailing list states : non-technical discussion (related to
Gentoo as a project) and propositions to Council, it does not say
intra-developer or advanced users relations.

And as you say, evidence should be only used in courts, in this case,
ComRel should be the group of persons reviewing this evidence, not the
whole list and as such people start to "judge" without the whole
context.

And yes, a healthy society does encourage people to speak when things
are not going well, but all of that needs to be done between the
correct procedures. If that's not the way to solve problems, then we
don't have a society.

Regards,
-- 
Christopher Díaz Riveros
Gentoo Linux Developer
GPG Fingerprint: E517 5ECB 8152 98E4 FEBC  2BAA 4DBB D10F 0FDD 2547

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 1:52 PM, Christopher Díaz Riveros <
chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
> And yes, a healthy society does encourage people to speak when things
> are not going well, but all of that needs to be done between the
> correct procedures. If that's not the way to solve problems, then we
> don't have a society.
>

I think this is a very good post. I am willing to abide by whatever
standards of conduct that mgorny and ulm are subject to. Right no, that
standard is "nada". If that changes, I will happily tone down the rhetoric.

-Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Daniel Robbins schrieb:
> I think this is a very good post. I am willing to abide by whatever standards
> of conduct that mgorny and ulm are subject to. Right no, that standard is
> "nada". If that changes, I will happily tone down the rhetoric.

No, I think that this is not enough. Even in the face of others engaging in
misconduct or displaying blatant disregard for rules (and I am not accusing
anyone here), we should stay civil and show our best behavior.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Daniel Robbins]

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On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <
chithanh@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Daniel Robbins schrieb:
> > I think this is a very good post. I am willing to abide by whatever
> standards
> > of conduct that mgorny and ulm are subject to. Right no, that standard is
> > "nada". If that changes, I will happily tone down the rhetoric.
>
> No, I think that this is not enough. Even in the face of others engaging in
> misconduct or displaying blatant disregard for rules (and I am not accusing
> anyone here), we should stay civil and show our best behavior.
>

It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on violations
of outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations from Council
members.

I wonder why that is?

-Daniel

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 02/04/18 21:21, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
> <chithanh@gentoo.org <mailto:chithanh@gentoo.org>> wrote:
>
>     Daniel Robbins schrieb:
>     > I think this is a very good post. I am willing to abide by whatever standards
>     > of conduct that mgorny and ulm are subject to. Right no, that
>     standard is
>     > "nada". If that changes, I will happily tone down the rhetoric.
>
>     No, I think that this is not enough. Even in the face of others
>     engaging in
>     misconduct or displaying blatant disregard for rules (and I am not
>     accusing
>     anyone here), we should stay civil and show our best behavior.
>
>
> It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on
> violations of outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations
> from Council members.
>
> I wonder why that is?
>
> -Daniel 
Possibly because developers vote for council, and either
support/ratify/condone their behaviour ..

I won't add anything about anyone being 'in their pockets' though ..

Oops...

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Daniel Robbins schrieb:
> It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on violations of
> outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations from Council members.

Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you reach a
certain status, then you can get away with things which ordinary folks can't.

But that doesn't make those things ok, or something that others should emulate.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 22:29, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Daniel Robbins schrieb:
>> It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on violations of
>> outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations from Council members.
> 
> Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you reach a
> certain status, then you can get away with things which ordinary folks can't.

Not really.

Comrel never received a complaint about ulm or mgorny behavior from 
drobbins.

On the other hand drobbins seems to try to violate all the items in the 
CoC on purpose even after he got warned about them.

lu

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 02/04/18 21:37, Luca Barbato wrote:
> On 02/04/2018 22:29, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
>> Daniel Robbins schrieb:
>>> It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on
>>> violations of
>>> outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations from Council
>>> members.
>>
>> Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you
>> reach a
>> certain status, then you can get away with things which ordinary
>> folks can't.
>
> Not really.
>
> Comrel never received a complaint about ulm or mgorny behavior from
> drobbins.
>
> On the other hand drobbins seems to try to violate all the items in
> the CoC on purpose even after he got warned about them.
>
> lu
>
For those who don't have access to bugzilla, (or before this gets
access-restricted, here is the content of bug 652240:
-----
*Bug 652240* <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652240> - 7 day
gentoo-project ban for Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org
<mailto:drobbins@funtoo.org>>:

Andreas K. Hüttel gentoo-dev 2018-04-02 21:04:13 BST

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/df760c45c48db24eeed952b73d9a1e5f

With reference to above list message, please enact a 7 day list ban on
gentoo-project for Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> as per code of
conduct guidelines.

Proposed by lu_zero, supported by dilfridge

[reply] [−] Comment 1 Daniel Robbins 2018-04-02 21:13:36 BST

I will happily accept a ban on behalf of those people who are afraid of
standing up against mgorny, for fear of retaliation. Someone needs to
bully the bullies.
-----

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Luca Barbato schrieb:
>> Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you reach a
>> certain status, then you can get away with things which ordinary folks can't.
> 
> Not really.

Yes, really.

> Comrel never received a complaint about ulm or mgorny behavior from drobbins.
> 
> On the other hand drobbins seems to try to violate all the items in the CoC
> on purpose even after he got warned about them.

I am not referring to or making any accusations in the current case. Just
observations and sometimes direct experiences in the time since I became a dev.


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 22:48, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Luca Barbato schrieb:
>>> Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you reach a
>>> certain status, then you can get away with things which ordinary folks can't.
>>
>> Not really.
> 
> Yes, really.
> 
>> Comrel never received a complaint about ulm or mgorny behavior from drobbins.
>>
>> On the other hand drobbins seems to try to violate all the items in the CoC
>> on purpose even after he got warned about them.
> 
> I am not referring to or making any accusations in the current case. Just
> observations and sometimes direct experiences in the time since I became a dev.

Have you reported any of those issue?

lu

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Lars Wendler]

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On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 22:37:28 +0200 Luca Barbato wrote:

>On 02/04/2018 22:29, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
>> Daniel Robbins schrieb:  
>>> It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on
>>> violations of outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations
>>> from Council members.  
>> 
>> Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you
>> reach a certain status, then you can get away with things which
>> ordinary folks can't.  
>
>Not really.
>
>Comrel never received a complaint about ulm or mgorny behavior from 
>drobbins.


Why should he? There are at least three(!) comrel bugs against mgorny
and he's still acting the same:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/586784 [restricted]
https://bugs.gentoo.org/586784 [restricted]
https://bugs.gentoo.org/641268

Seems like mgorny has already enough buddies in comrel to keep him from
any disciplinary action. So he can continue being abusive, rude and
arrogant towards other people without fearing any trouble.
I can understand Daniel not being willing to waste time in filing
another useless comrel bug.


>On the other hand drobbins seems to try to violate all the items in
>the CoC on purpose even after he got warned about them.
>
>lu
>

-- 
Lars Wendler
Gentoo package maintainer
GPG: 21CC CF02 4586 0A07 ED93  9F68 498F E765 960E 9B39

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 23:06, Lars Wendler wrote:
> Why should he? There are at least three(!) comrel bugs against
> mgorny and he's still acting the same:
> 
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/586784 [restricted] 
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/586784 [restricted]

You pasted the same bug twice.

> https://bugs.gentoo.org/641268

> Seems like mgorny has already enough buddies in comrel to keep him
> from any disciplinary action.

Do you have any specific proof of that or you are just frustrated?

I'd suggest to either substantiate some proof of it or maybe try to
relax a bit.

Accusing people at random isn't nice.

> So he can continue being abusive, rude and arrogant towards other
> people without fearing any trouble. I can understand Daniel not being
> willing to waste time in filing another useless comrel bug.

As per https://bugs.gentoo.org/610596#c8 he received a warning as
everybody does.

No receiving additional reports is sort of defeating the purpose of the
warning though.

Reports such as "let's grep for `idiot` and `mgorny` and use wc -l"
isn't exactly great.

One could be politely insufferable on purpose and at the same time you
might just face a culture/language barrier.

That said, would be much appreciated if you issue proper reports if
trying to politely tell any person to behave in a more polite way fails,
it would make our life much easier and yours as well :)

Behaving in a unacceptable way is not the best way to get any result
beside some time forcibly off the Gentoo ml.

lu

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Lars Wendler]

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On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 23:23:33 +0200 Luca Barbato wrote:

>On 02/04/2018 23:06, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> Why should he? There are at least three(!) comrel bugs against
>> mgorny and he's still acting the same:
>> 
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/586784 [restricted] 
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/586784 [restricted]  
>
>You pasted the same bug twice.

Here's the missing one...

https://bugs.gentoo.org/610596 [restricted]

>
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/641268  
>
>> Seems like mgorny has already enough buddies in comrel to keep him
>> from any disciplinary action.  
>
>Do you have any specific proof of that or you are just frustrated?
>
>I'd suggest to either substantiate some proof of it or maybe try to
>relax a bit.
>
>Accusing people at random isn't nice.
>
>> So he can continue being abusive, rude and arrogant towards other
>> people without fearing any trouble. I can understand Daniel not being
>> willing to waste time in filing another useless comrel bug.  
>
>As per https://bugs.gentoo.org/610596#c8 he received a warning as
>everybody does.
>
>No receiving additional reports is sort of defeating the purpose of the
>warning though.
>
>Reports such as "let's grep for `idiot` and `mgorny` and use wc -l"
>isn't exactly great.
>
>One could be politely insufferable on purpose and at the same time you
>might just face a culture/language barrier.
>
>That said, would be much appreciated if you issue proper reports if
>trying to politely tell any person to behave in a more polite way
>fails, it would make our life much easier and yours as well :)
>
>Behaving in a unacceptable way is not the best way to get any result
>beside some time forcibly off the Gentoo ml.
>
>lu
>

Oh right... being blatantly rude gives you instant offtime from Gentoo
featured by council. Being simply rude, abusive and arrogant is not
sufficient to take action.
Oh how I hate such hair-splitting...

-- 
Lars Wendler
Gentoo package maintainer
GPG: 21CC CF02 4586 0A07 ED93  9F68 498F E765 960E 9B39

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Luca Barbato wrote:

>> Well we are all equals, but some are more equal than others. If you
>> reach a certain status, then you can get away with things which
>> ordinary folks can't.

> Not really.

> Comrel never received a complaint about ulm or mgorny behavior from
> drobbins.

At least in my case, s/from drobbins// (and I would be grateful if
comrel could confirm).

Seriously, I would be very interested if anyone has perceived any
misconduct from my side, and I shall immediately step down from the
council if comrel will find any wrongdoing.

"Calumniare audacter, semper aliquid haeret" is much easier though,
than filing a complaint which would have to be supported by facts.

> On the other hand drobbins seems to try to violate all the items in
> the CoC on purpose even after he got warned about them.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/04/2018 22:21, Daniel Robbins wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <
> chithanh@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> Daniel Robbins schrieb:
>>> I think this is a very good post. I am willing to abide by whatever
>> standards
>>> of conduct that mgorny and ulm are subject to. Right no, that standard is
>>> "nada". If that changes, I will happily tone down the rhetoric.
>>
>> No, I think that this is not enough. Even in the face of others engaging in
>> misconduct or displaying blatant disregard for rules (and I am not accusing
>> anyone here), we should stay civil and show our best behavior.
>>
> 
> It is interesting that Gentoo comrel clamps down immediately on violations
> of outsiders, but chronically ignores ongoing violations from Council
> members.

Comrel acts on what it gets reported and usually comrel members issue 
warnings about unacceptable behavior at least once before going on more 
severe actions.

You never reported to comrel any issue and yet you decided to continue 
to behave in a quite not acceptable way even after I warned you.

I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to be removed from Gentoo.

lu

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[zlg]

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On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 02:11:13PM -0500, R0b0t1 wrote:
> Hello friends!
> 
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
> <chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Daniel,
> >
> > El lun, 02-04-2018 a las 09:23 -0600, Daniel Robbins escribió:
> >> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christopher Díaz Riveros
> >> <chrisadr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> > _You_ can say that this is your Burden of proof that mgorny is not
> >> > capable of being a Council member, but in the same line, _your
> >> > post_
> >> > shows that you are neither in position to be a good Council member
> >> > or
> >> > project lead, at least that's just _my_ opinion about this post.
> >>
> >> I am perfectly happy with you having that opinion, because I have
> >> never had any intention of being a Council member or project lead,
> >> nor "returning BDFL" of Gentoo that mgorny insinuates.
> >>
> >
> > No Daniel, but the fact is that you have history with Gentoo, even when
> > you don't see yourself trying to be a "leader", you need to act like
> > one.
> >
> > This reminds me some horrible local news from my country, where a
> > congressman had to made public some videos about corruption that we
> > suffer as country, that ended up in the resignation of our president.
> > Maybe he had to leave, but making pressure by using private videos and
> > then release them to public, was definetly not he correct way to do
> > that.
> >
> > This is the fact from you fact-list:
> >
> > You showed the whole mailing list (and leaved a permanent tracking
> > file) a conversation that was not previously seen by ComRel (which is
> > the project who you should try to contact before making this kind of
> > information public). Even when you are "just another user" here... I
> > mean, you run Funtoo, you are a public leader, and how could I possibly
> > trust my leader if he shows private conversations publicly... that's a
> > fact no matter with whom the conversation is, or what is it about.
> >
> 
> While in general I have no business posting here, I think I should
> rephrase what it seems you are saying:
> 
> "People should not be held accountable for their actions, because that
> might make them feel bad."
> 
> I would be hard pressed to find people who agree.
> 
> 
> Using the (US) legal system as a guide, if I break the law to obtain
> evidence of someone *else* breaking the law, that evidence is
> admissible (if I remember correctly) because I am not the government.
> However, it is likely I would still be prosecuted for whatever law
> that I broke, though in some areas any charges might be waived by
> statute.
> 
> In a semi-related vein, the majority of US states do not require that
> all parties agree to have their correspondence recorded for any of the
> participants to record that correspondence.
> 
> 
> It stands to reason that if someone sees you behaving in a manner they
> think others should be made aware of, society already supports making
> others aware of those actions, even if custom would be to keep them
> private.
> 
> Cheers,
>      R0b0t1
> 

Some states such as Washington are known as "two-party", meaning that
both parties to communications must consent to recording. This is often
abused by corporations in this state by forcing customers to agree to
*being* recorded, but refusing to help customers if they don't turn off
their recording apparatus. I am unsure of the legal precedent, but
practiced law is often different from written law.

Legal Source: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030

As for corporate behavior, I worked for a company who did that for phone
support and operated in Washington state.

In short, it really depends on which state you're in.

~zlg

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Matt Turner]

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 11:19 PM, Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:
> More burden-of-proof related stuff. Please fact-check this. This is an
> excerpt from a 1:1 IRC conversation between me an mgorny, regarding
> shentino:

Help me understand what you think this conversation shows?

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Burden of proof

[Raymond Jennings]

For the record I am reading this.

Not sure what to say in response though.

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 12:13 PM, Matt Turner <mattst88@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 11:19 PM, Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:
>> More burden-of-proof related stuff. Please fact-check this. This is an
>> excerpt from a 1:1 IRC conversation between me an mgorny, regarding
>> shentino:
>
> Help me understand what you think this conversation shows?
>