[gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Chris Reffett]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,
   In my previous email to -project, I suggested several changes to
GLEP 1. Since then, I have produced a sample of what GLEP 2 would look
like if my patch #6 (change the official format from ReST to Wiki
Markup, move GLEPs to the Wiki) is accepted. This should give you a
good idea of what GLEPs would look like under that system, since it
would be the new version of the template GLEP. To summarize, I tried
to keep as close to the current official version as possible, but I
did remove the restriction on line lengths (since this is not designed
to be read in a text editor, it is designed to be read on the wiki),
made changes to wiki formatting throughout, and removed sections that
aren't really relevant after the format change (like the section on
avoiding TeX-style quotes). The sample is available at
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Creffett/GLEP2 and the original is
available for comparison at
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0002.html. Please let me know
if I made any major errors or you have any suggestions for improving
this. As with the GLEP 1 modifications, I plan to take this to the
next Council meeting if there are no major objections.

Thanks,
Chris Reffett
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iKYEARECAGYFAlKvzV5fFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl
bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEM2NzU5RjUyMDczREJDQkVDQTBDRkE1NERC
Nzk1QThBNDI2MTgzNTQACgkQ23laikJhg1RmmQCaApEObbM+Q9hBr09ZVaME6y7R
rgoAniX3+p7KXJxbEfDxYmhb3ALdh4B8
=fMJQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Chris Reffett]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/16/2013 11:04 PM, Chris Reffett wrote:
> Hello, In my previous email to -project, I suggested several
> changes to GLEP 1. Since then, I have produced a sample of what
> GLEP 2 would look like if my patch #6 (change the official format
> from ReST to Wiki Markup, move GLEPs to the Wiki) is accepted. This
> should give you a good idea of what GLEPs would look like under
> that system, since it would be the new version of the template
> GLEP. To summarize, I tried to keep as close to the current
> official version as possible, but I did remove the restriction on
> line lengths (since this is not designed to be read in a text
> editor, it is designed to be read on the wiki), made changes to
> wiki formatting throughout, and removed sections that aren't really
> relevant after the format change (like the section on avoiding
> TeX-style quotes). The sample is available at 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Creffett/GLEP2 and the original
> is available for comparison at 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0002.html. Please let me
> know if I made any major errors or you have any suggestions for
> improving this. As with the GLEP 1 modifications, I plan to take
> this to the next Council meeting if there are no major objections.
> 
> Thanks, Chris Reffett
> 
As an addendum: I did not modify the tables section, since right now
the current method of making them by hand is (in my opinion)
significantly simpler than the wiki markup method of making tables.
Again, I am open to suggestions as to whether to leave the tables
as-is or if someone has a good way to explain the table format.

Chris Reffett
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iKYEARECAGYFAlKvze9fFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl
bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEM2NzU5RjUyMDczREJDQkVDQTBDRkE1NERC
Nzk1QThBNDI2MTgzNTQACgkQ23laikJhg1SdAwCgpjFOl+fxpsvObTFb4+tpcW0F
R4EAn04pf9aAAC38NhgzchZA6zNzbeP8
=Fk3t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 879 bytes --]

Some things that I noticed when reading the draft:

- GLEP 1 and 2 recommend licensing GLEPs under the Open Publication
  License. Is there any specific reason for this? If not, we should
  switch to CC-BY-SA, in order to be compatible with the license used
  for the wiki (and for the rest of our documentation).

  Only few GLEPs are actually licensed under the OPL, namely GLEP 12,
  GLEP 49, and GLEPs 57 to 61. Maybe their authors could be asked to
  relicense them under CC-BY-SA?

- Section headings. The draft says to use these:
    =First-Level Title=
    ==Second-Level Title==
    ===Third-Level Title===
  IIUC, in Mediawiki first-level headings are reserved for the page
  title, so this list should start with == ==. The markup of the GLEP
  draft itself suffers from this problem, too.

- Minor formatting issues, like emphasis (*foo* instead of ''foo'').

Ulrich

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 17/12/13 09:35, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> - GLEP 1 and 2 recommend licensing GLEPs under the Open Publication
> License. Is there any specific reason for this? If not, we should
> switch to CC-BY-SA, in order to be compatible with the license used
> for the wiki (and for the rest of our documentation).
I have been contemplating opening a similar discussion in the future.
Might as well do it now.

We should change all GLEPs (or at least the ones that are public
domain) to CC-BY-SA for two reasons. The first is compatibility, as
you mention. The second is that public domain differs from country to
country and is just needlessly complex when we can use CC-BY-SA instead.

- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iF4EAREIAAYFAlKwJRIACgkQRtClrXBQc7U9mwD/dXwMAkwiio5zpC1zxAWiW9y5
67AkKO2CvhEGg2TR/j4A/jbguy6xhdp1hFUqtuEI1KBV4C54YjQJdVOeqx26XGbG
=piux
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 759 bytes --]

>>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

> We should change all GLEPs (or at least the ones that are public
> domain) to CC-BY-SA for two reasons. The first is compatibility, as
> you mention. The second is that public domain differs from country
> to country and is just needlessly complex when we can use CC-BY-SA
> instead.

While I agree with you about both reasons, I disagree about what we
should do about it. IMHO, changing the license of the existing GLEPs
that are marked public domain is not worth the effort.

For future GLEPs, we could recommend CC0 instead of public domain,
which would solve the problem of definitions differing from country to
country, without imposing any additional restrictions on reusing the
document.

Ulrich

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 17/12/13 14:07, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> While I agree with you about both reasons, I disagree about what we
>  should do about it. IMHO, changing the license of the existing
> GLEPs that are marked public domain is not worth the effort.
There must be some sort of effort that I do not understand. It seems
quite simple to me. Could you elaborate?

> For future GLEPs, we could recommend CC0 instead of public domain,
>  which would solve the problem of definitions differing from
> country to country, without imposing any additional restrictions on
> reusing the document.
SA is not a restriction. Quite the opposite. It makes sure the
document always remains free, and that no one may impose restrictions
on it by making a derivative with restrictions. However, considering
the specific as well as trivial nature of GLEPs, I think that CC0 is
fine as well.

- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iF4EAREIAAYFAlKwUukACgkQRtClrXBQc7W34AEAt1KfO09ovcmg8/qd8Xz4jLr4
YvR4HrArYsnGQa6RmqUA/Rr9S2ZeWsYxjA2eX3S9qlXwhS6/4NL1IH8UbyP0KWkB
=82Di
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Chris Reffett]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

On 12/17/2013 03:35 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Some things that I noticed when reading the draft:
> 
> - GLEP 1 and 2 recommend licensing GLEPs under the Open
> Publication License. Is there any specific reason for this? If not,
> we should switch to CC-BY-SA, in order to be compatible with the
> license used for the wiki (and for the rest of our documentation).
No idea what the reason was, wasn't my decision and I left the
recommendation untouched because I had no reason to mess with it. When
your discussion on this comes to a conclusion, I can add a patch to
the GLEP 1 proposal to switch to $license-of-choice and make the
appropriate modifications to GLEP 2.

> 
> Only few GLEPs are actually licensed under the OPL, namely GLEP
> 12, GLEP 49, and GLEPs 57 to 61. Maybe their authors could be asked
> to relicense them under CC-BY-SA?
> 
> - Section headings. The draft says to use these: =First-Level
> Title= ==Second-Level Title== ===Third-Level Title=== IIUC, in
> Mediawiki first-level headings are reserved for the page title, so
> this list should start with == ==. The markup of the GLEP draft
> itself suffers from this problem, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup#Sections indicates that
=title= is a top level section heading.

> - Minor formatting issues, like emphasis (*foo* instead of
> ''foo'').
Fixed that one, thank you. Please let me know if you see any others.

> Ulrich
> 

Thanks,
Chris Reffett
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iKYEARECAGYFAlKwXJVfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl
bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEM2NzU5RjUyMDczREJDQkVDQTBDRkE1NERC
Nzk1QThBNDI2MTgzNTQACgkQ23laikJhg1Qb8wCeLmpNo3rmcyuxyqo6wGxaW9vJ
4ecAnR+rA0Kc/EnbGfOdoYuUvRVQSWcr
=clbe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1088 bytes --]

>>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

>> While I agree with you about both reasons, I disagree about what we
>> should do about it. IMHO, changing the license of the existing
>> GLEPs that are marked public domain is not worth the effort.
> There must be some sort of effort that I do not understand. It seems
> quite simple to me. Could you elaborate?

Well, if it's simple, then we have no reason to change it, in the
first place. ;-)

However, in your previous posting you made the point that public
domain isn't so simple, and indeed in some legislations (e.g.
"Urheberrecht" in Germany) it is not possible to give up author's
rights. In this case the authors would retain at least some of their
rights (depending on their country), and we would have to ask them
about licensing the GLEP under CC-BY-SA.

While the current situation with GLEPs labelled as PD may not be 100%
clean, simply relabelling them as CC-BY-SA (without asking authors)
won't help rectifying it, and asking them would obviously require some
effort. So I'd just leave things as they are.

Ulrich

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 878 bytes --]

>>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013, Chris Reffett wrote:

> No idea what the reason was, wasn't my decision and I left the
> recommendation untouched because I had no reason to mess with it.
> When your discussion on this comes to a conclusion, I can add a
> patch to the GLEP 1 proposal to switch to $license-of-choice and
> make the appropriate modifications to GLEP 2.

I'm aware that it was not your decision. But it seems that migrating
GLEPs to the wiki would be a good occasion to change the recommended
license. Having several incompatible licenses in the same wiki looks
less than optimal to me.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup#Sections indicates
> that =title= is a top level section heading.

Huh? It says there: "A single = is styled as the article title and
should not be used within an article." followed by examples starting
with "== Section ==".

Ulrich

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 17/12/13 15:39, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> [A]sking [the authors] would obviously require some effort. So I'd 
> just leave things as they are.
OK. I just did not realise you considered this too much effort. Thanks
for the explanation.
- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iF4EAREIAAYFAlKwZYwACgkQRtClrXBQc7X83QD9Hdv4u1dO5ntKnae7ygaKrONB
6fif0gjvvPCPm/bdfR0A/1Thk8A/Jt9gla6lIpVg2AcepHkcC1MksNn2sESgVqiy
=MFYb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Chris Reffett]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/17/2013 09:50 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013, Chris Reffett wrote:
> 
>> No idea what the reason was, wasn't my decision and I left the 
>> recommendation untouched because I had no reason to mess with
>> it. When your discussion on this comes to a conclusion, I can add
>> a patch to the GLEP 1 proposal to switch to $license-of-choice
>> and make the appropriate modifications to GLEP 2.
> 
> I'm aware that it was not your decision. But it seems that
> migrating GLEPs to the wiki would be a good occasion to change the
> recommended license. Having several incompatible licenses in the
> same wiki looks less than optimal to me.
No argument there.
> 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup#Sections indicates 
>> that =title= is a top level section heading.
> 
> Huh? It says there: "A single = is styled as the article title and 
> should not be used within an article." followed by examples
> starting with "== Section ==".
> 
> Ulrich
> 
...so it does, I apparently fail at reading. My bad, will fix :)

Chris Reffett
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iKYEARECAGYFAlKwZi9fFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl
bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEM2NzU5RjUyMDczREJDQkVDQTBDRkE1NERC
Nzk1QThBNDI2MTgzNTQACgkQ23laikJhg1SDOACePzTJ26uHY5ng+YjqocSI8MYN
AbAAoKmnQnnM/0XhLVxKRroPj33dfrQg
=NU09
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [gentoo-project] Modified GLEP 2

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

>> [A]sking [the authors] would obviously require some effort. So I'd
>> just leave things as they are.
> OK. I just did not realise you considered this too much effort.
> Thanks for the explanation.

In fact, asking is easy if people are still active. But if you look at
existing GLEPs, you'll find many retired devs as authors. Finding a
recent address where they can be contacted is the difficult part, and
isn't even guaranteed to succeed.

Ulrich