On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 02:23:02PM -0400, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 2:15 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@iee.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 17/06/18 19:07, Alec Warner wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > My opinion though is we should give the trustees time to catch up
> >> >
> >>
> >> How much time?  We're 14 years in, and Robin has been working on the
> >> books for a few years I think.  Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the
> >> work he is doing, but I'm not convinced it is a one-person project,
> >> and it doesn't end when the past is caught up.
> >>
> >
> > I'm fairly confident we can fix the current tax problems (in the end, its
> > a problem we can solve with money, and we have some money.)
> > I'm less convinced the non-profit yields any value over other
> > alternatives, and so from an effort-basis I feel its necessary to wind down
> > and replace
> > with something else.

It sounds like this is the track to pursue. Vote forantarus as a trustee
and make it happen.

> >
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Once that happens, I think it is better to work with them to choose the
> >> > future path since they own the Gentoo trademark, name, logo etc [1].
> >> >
> >>
> >> Working with somebody isn't the same as deferring everything to them.

Sure, but when did I say defer everything to them?

> >>
> >> The problem with leaving the fate of the Foundation entirely to the
> >> Trustees is that there is a lot of selection bias at work.  Trustees
> >> are a bunch of individuals selected for their interest in running a
> >> non-profit (for the most part, simply volunteering for the post is
> >> sufficient to be voted in).  Should we be surprised when they advocate
> >> for continuing to run a non-profit?
> >>
> >
> > I really don't think this is true. Its explicitly not true for me. I was a
> > trustee because there were open slots and someone had to 'keep the lights
> > on.'
> > Other people who ran for the board have expressed similar sentiments. I am
> > running again in the next election on a platform of dissolution (closing
> > the foundation) which is again contrary to your argument. There is no point
> > in continuing to run a non-profit that continues to nominally accrue risk
> > with little or no upside. Eventually it will become so toxic that you will
> > be unable to find anyone to run it (some may say this has already begun to
> > happen.) This is evident partially by the board's reduction in numbers.
> > Previously the board had 13 seats, then 7, then 5. I'm not superbly
> > confident we will be able to fill 5 seats in the next election.

Rich, this argument makes no sense.

> >
> >
> >> There is also no need to wait for the Foundation to fix everything
> >> before working on a path forward.  Just as individuals can use their
> >> own property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their own
> >> money to the Gentoo Foundation, so other entities can use their own
> >> property to work on Gentoo-related projects, or donate their money to
> >> the Foundation.
> >>
> >
> > I think some of the conflict is a result of communication style (America v
> > European) and also the internet-based communication methods we use to meet
> > and converse with each other. I've often pitched something else (audio or
> > video) but have never reached consensus. This isn't to discount the actual
> > area of conflict (e.g. Finances) but how ones communicate ones ideas
> > matters a fair bit.

This makes sense too.

> > -A
> >
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rich
> >>
> >>
> > Just to avoid confusion, Alex, are you talking about dissolving the
> > organisation that is Gentoo Foundation, Inc. as a non-profit corporation,
> > or completely eradicating the Board, Trustees and Officers such that the
> > day-to-day organisational aspects of Gentoo either moves to the Council
> > (*shudders*) or to another organisation entirely, with whatever baggage
> > that ensues?!
> >
> 
> I mean the New Mexico Non-profit corporation would be dissolved. If Gentoo
> continued to want to own its trademarks and raise funds, those functions
> would have to be moved elsewhere. This is typically where an umbrella (SPI,
> SFLC, or similar) organization comes in handy; but I don't intend to be
> prescriptive at this time in terms of what the next steps are. Obviously we
> have to figure that out prior to dissolution (because the Articles of
> dissolution specify where assets go.)
> 
> -A