public inbox for gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* [gentoo-project] Resignation
@ 2017-12-16  8:34 Daniel Campbell
  2017-12-16  9:04 ` Richard Yao
                   ` (7 more replies)
  0 siblings, 8 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Campbell @ 2017-12-16  8:34 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10130 bytes --]

Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee. I joined Gentoo to
gain experience and give back to the libre software community. In some
ways, maybe I succeeded a little. I learned from this experience that
I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute or advance
my skills, and people will often act against their stated goals if it
improves their appearance. It taught me how *not* to organize a libre
software project. The few great experiences I had here at Gentoo sadly
do not outweigh the negative experiences, and I'm no longer interested
in beating my head against that brick wall.

Here's a list of the "nothing" I've done in my Gentoo involvement:

As proxy maintainer, I took on these packages to sort of "prove my
worth":

net-p2p/i2p
net-p2p/imule
x11-wm/fluxbox

I knew nothing about Java -- and it probably showed -- but I was willing
to learn what was necessary to get the ebuilds in better shape. This
never changed throughout the 2.5 years I was a developer.

pchrist, heroxbd, jlec, and zlogene mentored me and got me up to speed.
I am grateful for their level of care and attention, and the effort they
put in alongside me. My recruitment process was protracted due to real
life, but we eventually pulled through.

After I became a developer, maffblaster welcomed me to the wiki, and
we even had a conversation over Mumble later on. I later took on more
packages, enthusiastic to give back to a distro that I liked:

app-cdr/bashburn
dev-util/astyle
media-sound/apulse
media-video/smtube
net-misc/toxic
sys-apps/udevil
www-servers/lighttpd
x11-misc/alock
x11-misc/ktsuss
x11-misc/spacefm

I dipped my hands into any bug I thought I could reasonably solve,
and sought advice when I didn't know the correct way to do something.
Sometimes this worked; sometimes I'd realize I didn't have the skill
necessary, and left it to the more experienced people.

Sometimes, mgorny would show up and tell me that my solution sucked or
was "braindead", or that such-and-such solution was "common sense",
with no explanation as to *why* it was "common sense". (this was on
IRC, though [1] outlines where jcallen had to clarify what I hope
mgorny intended to communicate) He didn't ever tell me what the correct
solution was to any given problem that I might've messed up. To this
end, his criticism served to do nothing but demotivate me. At a later
point, when monsieurp and I were dealing with file collisions, he
threatened to have us go through the developer quizzes again. [2] None
of his criticism was helpful or encouraging. The key to good criticism
is to be *constructive*, acknowledging the mistakes *AND* the successes.
Without both, one's communication is morally destructive.

[1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/547524
[2]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/603526#c6

(careful, the comments might be deleted in response to this e-mail to
save face)

Later, I was nominated as Trustee by klondike. At first, I didn't think
I could do the job. Maybe I should've listened to that feeling. But I
felt it would be rude if I didn't accept a nomination. Nothing ventured,
nothing gained, right? I didn't expect to be voted for. I had a feeling
I would be laughed at and would walk away having spent the time on a
manifesto for nothing. Reality is often stranger than fiction, and I
found myself in a Trustee role. Given that he was only one rank below me
in the election, I feel that klondike may have been a better fit for the
role. I regret accepting the nomination.

robbat2 mentored me on Treasurer duties, when he had the spare time. I
felt bad that he was spread so thin between his other Gentoo duties,
mentoring me, and being a parent. Nevertheless, I pushed forward, trying
to fill the role as best I knew how to. Most of the time, I was afraid
to touch anything because I understood that money was involved. I didn't
want to make a mistake and cost us money. Because of that, I only ever
logged into one account (Paypal), and only to gather the metadata we
needed to update some records.

mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
(rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?

These questions led me to my answer: leave the organization. There is no
point in continuing to try when I will only be berated for screwing up.
My failures will be paraded to all while my victories go un-noticed and
unappreciated. This is a losing proposition, leading nowhere. As such, I
am terminating my involvement with Gentoo Linux and its Foundation.

I'd like to thank everyone who helped me become a developer and trustee,
and the two positive code reviews I received during my time as a
developer, by Soap and floppym. They helped me understand not only
*where* I messed up, but what the solution should've looked like and
*why* their solutions were better. I don't think either of them really
like me, but credit given where it's due.

A developer will not progress or become more skilled unless they
understand those key things (why, how, where). Drive-by insults and
egotism will drive people away. Gentoo won't improve in this regard
unless it cares enough to value what people contribute and acknowledge
when people give constructive reviews. It takes effort from both "sides"
of a mentorship in order to get any appreciable progress.

When I reached out to members of the Gentoo community, I learned that
there were a considerable number of users (of all skill levels) who,
for whatever reason, did not want to go through the process of becoming
a developer. This told me that there was an imbalance in the value
proposition; that is, the effort spent to become a developer *appears*
to be more work than what you get by making it through the process. I
think this is the core of Gentoo's struggles. Gentoo will continue to
suffer from manpower problems [3] until it figures out how to improve
that value proposition. If higher quality recruits are desired, then
a structured curriculum -- with smaller, focused tests along the way
-- may be the best way to bring a recruit from "wet behind the ears"
to "ready to commit on the toolchain". This process is important to
Gentoo's longevity, and unless its leadership takes this social problem
seriously, they will find themselves with more work and fewer people.

[3]: Before any glib old-timer pipes up, recall that the Council (your
leadership) just recently considered a mailing list split and discussed
package maintenance (i.e. manpower) problems in the same meeting; I hope
the irony is not lost on others.

I expect to be laughed or jeered at by mgorny and other senior
developers, but now it's Gentoo's problem, not mine. I've done what I
thought I could do, and can walk away knowing that I tried. Nobody can
reasonably ask for more than that.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

(on the plus side, you can now type 'zl' and Tab in IRC to get zlogene
instead of me :P)

My Foundation activity follows.

FOUNDATION ACTIVITY TRACKER
FOR zlg@gentoo.org

2017-10-08
    Worked with robbat2 to catch up the MoneyMarket account to match the missing
    statements from 2013-12 to 2015-12.

2017-10-22
    Edited the Foundation:Activity Tracker page with the new due date of the 
    Treasurer's Annual Report with NM: 2018-11-15

2017-11-19
    robbat2 re-encrypted the banking passwords file, granting access to online
    accounts for me to begin converting Paypal transaction data and catch up on
    other financial activity.

    Paypal transaction information from 20170701-20171031 was imported and 
    converted using `make all` in /paypal_raw/; commit pending

    Corrected Ruby call in paypal_raw/Makefile to ruby22

    Added a note in paypal_raw/README about requiring dev-ruby/tzinfo    

    The meeting was postponed until Nov 26th, due to Meeting Chair's last-minute
    obligations and a shortage of trustees.
        * E-mail announcement was sent to -nfp@l.g.o
        * Wiki page for meeting updated
        * #gentoo-trustees /topic updated

    Convened with robbat2 on correcting the rubycsv code to include Subject: and 
    Note: fields for matching accounts. He later fixed this on his own.

2017-11-26
    bug 605336; updated metadata for FOSDEM 2017 LiveDVD production reimbursement

    bug 591704; updated metadata for Perl Foundation donation in our loss of
    avenj

    wrote script to update foundation member OpenPGP key IDs to fingerprints, 
    per ulm's request: 
    https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/f06a3b742e06ddfcb541a822e0210e05
    sent to trustees@g.o for review
    used one-liner from robbat2 to fetch fingerprints from LDAP to x-ref

    bug 638036; created bug for shadowz.in request for logo/trademark licensing
        discussion pending

2017-11-27 to 2017-12-04
    worked on two more scripts to migrate and upgrade foundation list to include
    full fingerprints (and multiple keys)
        only script remaining is wikitable creator; a user indicated it would
        be trivial to write, using awk.

EOF
-- 
Daniel Campbell
OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
Found on hkp://keys.gnupg.net and other keyservers

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
@ 2017-12-16  9:04 ` Richard Yao
  2017-12-16 10:59 ` Sergei Trofimovich
                   ` (6 subsequent siblings)
  7 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Richard Yao @ 2017-12-16  9:04 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project



> On Dec 16, 2017, at 3:34 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee. I joined Gentoo to
> gain experience and give back to the libre software community. In some
> ways, maybe I succeeded a little. I learned from this experience that
> I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute or advance
> my skills, and people will often act against their stated goals if it
> improves their appearance. It taught me how *not* to organize a libre
> software project. The few great experiences I had here at Gentoo sadly
> do not outweigh the negative experiences, and I'm no longer interested
> in beating my head against that brick wall.

You will be missed.
> 
> Here's a list of the "nothing" I've done in my Gentoo involvement:
> 
> As proxy maintainer, I took on these packages to sort of "prove my
> worth":
> 
> net-p2p/i2p
> net-p2p/imule
> x11-wm/fluxbox
> 
> I knew nothing about Java -- and it probably showed -- but I was willing
> to learn what was necessary to get the ebuilds in better shape. This
> never changed throughout the 2.5 years I was a developer.
> 
> pchrist, heroxbd, jlec, and zlogene mentored me and got me up to speed.
> I am grateful for their level of care and attention, and the effort they
> put in alongside me. My recruitment process was protracted due to real
> life, but we eventually pulled through.
> 
> After I became a developer, maffblaster welcomed me to the wiki, and
> we even had a conversation over Mumble later on. I later took on more
> packages, enthusiastic to give back to a distro that I liked:
> 
> app-cdr/bashburn
> dev-util/astyle
> media-sound/apulse
> media-video/smtube
> net-misc/toxic
> sys-apps/udevil
> www-servers/lighttpd
> x11-misc/alock
> x11-misc/ktsuss
> x11-misc/spacefm
> 
> I dipped my hands into any bug I thought I could reasonably solve,
> and sought advice when I didn't know the correct way to do something.
> Sometimes this worked; sometimes I'd realize I didn't have the skill
> necessary, and left it to the more experienced people.
> 
> Sometimes, mgorny would show up and tell me that my solution sucked or
> was "braindead", or that such-and-such solution was "common sense",
> with no explanation as to *why* it was "common sense". (this was on
> IRC, though [1] outlines where jcallen had to clarify what I hope
> mgorny intended to communicate) He didn't ever tell me what the correct
> solution was to any given problem that I might've messed up. To this
> end, his criticism served to do nothing but demotivate me. At a later
> point, when monsieurp and I were dealing with file collisions, he
> threatened to have us go through the developer quizzes again. [2] None
> of his criticism was helpful or encouraging. The key to good criticism
> is to be *constructive*, acknowledging the mistakes *AND* the successes.
> Without both, one's communication is morally destructive.

I think you mean destructive to morale and yes, making sure that criticism is constructive is important. I am disappointed to hear that mgorny failed to do so.
> 
> [1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/547524
> [2]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/603526#c6
> 
> (careful, the comments might be deleted in response to this e-mail to
> save face)
> 
> Later, I was nominated as Trustee by klondike. At first, I didn't think
> I could do the job. Maybe I should've listened to that feeling. But I
> felt it would be rude if I didn't accept a nomination. Nothing ventured,
> nothing gained, right? I didn't expect to be voted for. I had a feeling
> I would be laughed at and would walk away having spent the time on a
> manifesto for nothing. Reality is often stranger than fiction, and I
> found myself in a Trustee role. Given that he was only one rank below me
> in the election, I feel that klondike may have been a better fit for the
> role. I regret accepting the nomination.
> 
> robbat2 mentored me on Treasurer duties, when he had the spare time. I
> felt bad that he was spread so thin between his other Gentoo duties,
> mentoring me, and being a parent. Nevertheless, I pushed forward, trying
> to fill the role as best I knew how to. Most of the time, I was afraid
> to touch anything because I understood that money was involved. I didn't
> want to make a mistake and cost us money. Because of that, I only ever
> logged into one account (Paypal), and only to gather the metadata we
> needed to update some records.
> 
> mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
> politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
> the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
> everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
> ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
> on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
> projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
> donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
> I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
> (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
> during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
> any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?

This is why many of us do not touch the foundation. It unfortunately requires more of us than there is to give.

I do think that you were doing good work though. Your “screw ups” never affected me and I always considered commits that you made to be uncontroversial and beneficial.
> 
> These questions led me to my answer: leave the organization. There is no
> point in continuing to try when I will only be berated for screwing up.
> My failures will be paraded to all while my victories go un-noticed and
> unappreciated. This is a losing proposition, leading nowhere. As such, I
> am terminating my involvement with Gentoo Linux and its Foundation.

It is a bit late to say this, but you could have tried posting about what you were doing in IRC. At the risk of annoying others, I am happy to be a cheerleader for useful things that would otherwise go unnoticed if someone told me about them.
> 
> I'd like to thank everyone who helped me become a developer and trustee,
> and the two positive code reviews I received during my time as a
> developer, by Soap and floppym. They helped me understand not only
> *where* I messed up, but what the solution should've looked like and
> *why* their solutions were better. I don't think either of them really
> like me, but credit given where it's due.
> 
> A developer will not progress or become more skilled unless they
> understand those key things (why, how, where). Drive-by insults and
> egotism will drive people away. Gentoo won't improve in this regard
> unless it cares enough to value what people contribute and acknowledge
> when people give constructive reviews. It takes effort from both "sides"
> of a mentorship in order to get any appreciable progress.
> 
> When I reached out to members of the Gentoo community, I learned that
> there were a considerable number of users (of all skill levels) who,
> for whatever reason, did not want to go through the process of becoming
> a developer. This told me that there was an imbalance in the value
> proposition; that is, the effort spent to become a developer *appears*
> to be more work than what you get by making it through the process. I
> think this is the core of Gentoo's struggles. Gentoo will continue to
> suffer from manpower problems [3] until it figures out how to improve
> that value proposition. If higher quality recruits are desired, then
> a structured curriculum -- with smaller, focused tests along the way
> -- may be the best way to bring a recruit from "wet behind the ears"
> to "ready to commit on the toolchain". This process is important to
> Gentoo's longevity, and unless its leadership takes this social problem
> seriously, they will find themselves with more work and fewer people.
> 
> [3]: Before any glib old-timer pipes up, recall that the Council (your
> leadership) just recently considered a mailing list split and discussed
> package maintenance (i.e. manpower) problems in the same meeting; I hope
> the irony is not lost on others.
> 
> I expect to be laughed or jeered at by mgorny and other senior
> developers, but now it's Gentoo's problem, not mine. I've done what I
> thought I could do, and can walk away knowing that I tried. Nobody can
> reasonably ask for more than that.
> 
> So long, and thanks for all the fish.
> 
> (on the plus side, you can now type 'zl' and Tab in IRC to get zlogene
> instead of me :P)
> 
> My Foundation activity follows.
> 
> FOUNDATION ACTIVITY TRACKER
> FOR zlg@gentoo.org
> 
> 2017-10-08
>    Worked with robbat2 to catch up the MoneyMarket account to match the missing
>    statements from 2013-12 to 2015-12.
> 
> 2017-10-22
>    Edited the Foundation:Activity Tracker page with the new due date of the 
>    Treasurer's Annual Report with NM: 2018-11-15
> 
> 2017-11-19
>    robbat2 re-encrypted the banking passwords file, granting access to online
>    accounts for me to begin converting Paypal transaction data and catch up on
>    other financial activity.
> 
>    Paypal transaction information from 20170701-20171031 was imported and 
>    converted using `make all` in /paypal_raw/; commit pending
> 
>    Corrected Ruby call in paypal_raw/Makefile to ruby22
> 
>    Added a note in paypal_raw/README about requiring dev-ruby/tzinfo    
> 
>    The meeting was postponed until Nov 26th, due to Meeting Chair's last-minute
>    obligations and a shortage of trustees.
>        * E-mail announcement was sent to -nfp@l.g.o
>        * Wiki page for meeting updated
>        * #gentoo-trustees /topic updated
> 
>    Convened with robbat2 on correcting the rubycsv code to include Subject: and 
>    Note: fields for matching accounts. He later fixed this on his own.
> 
> 2017-11-26
>    bug 605336; updated metadata for FOSDEM 2017 LiveDVD production reimbursement
> 
>    bug 591704; updated metadata for Perl Foundation donation in our loss of
>    avenj
> 
>    wrote script to update foundation member OpenPGP key IDs to fingerprints, 
>    per ulm's request: 
>    https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/f06a3b742e06ddfcb541a822e0210e05
>    sent to trustees@g.o for review
>    used one-liner from robbat2 to fetch fingerprints from LDAP to x-ref
> 
>    bug 638036; created bug for shadowz.in request for logo/trademark licensing
>        discussion pending
> 
> 2017-11-27 to 2017-12-04
>    worked on two more scripts to migrate and upgrade foundation list to include
>    full fingerprints (and multiple keys)
>        only script remaining is wikitable creator; a user indicated it would
>        be trivial to write, using awk.
> 
> EOF
> -- 
> Daniel Campbell
> OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
> Found on hkp://keys.gnupg.net and other keyservers



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
  2017-12-16  9:04 ` Richard Yao
@ 2017-12-16 10:59 ` Sergei Trofimovich
  2017-12-16 11:04 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand
                   ` (5 subsequent siblings)
  7 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Sergei Trofimovich @ 2017-12-16 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: Daniel Campbell; +Cc: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 369 bytes --]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 00:34:03 -0800
Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee.

Sad to see you go :(

Thank you for the writeup!

It precisely highlights social problems Gentoo has that dwarf technical problems.

-- 

  Sergei

[-- Attachment #2: Цифровая подпись OpenPGP --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
  2017-12-16  9:04 ` Richard Yao
  2017-12-16 10:59 ` Sergei Trofimovich
@ 2017-12-16 11:04 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand
  2017-12-16 13:38 ` Toralf Förster
                   ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  7 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Kristian Fiskerstrand @ 2017-12-16 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project, Daniel Campbell


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 384 bytes --]

On 12/16/2017 09:34 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee.

C'est la vie, best of luck in your future endeavors.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2017-12-16 11:04 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand
@ 2017-12-16 13:38 ` Toralf Förster
  2017-12-18 16:04   ` Jeroen Roovers
  2017-12-18 17:04 ` Daniel Robbins
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  7 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Toralf Förster @ 2017-12-16 13:38 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

On 12/16/2017 09:34 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>  I learned from this experience that
> I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute

Right, I do use Gentoo since 2003, maintain an own tinderbox since 2014
- and become a dev just this year.

So there's no need to become a dev to just contribute - but shouldn't
make it that task easier?

Therefore my (naive) question - what is the advantage to give away the
dev status ?

-- 
Toralf
PGP 23217DA7 9B888F45



[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16 13:38 ` Toralf Förster
@ 2017-12-18 16:04   ` Jeroen Roovers
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jeroen Roovers @ 2017-12-18 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: Toralf Förster; +Cc: gentoo-project

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 14:38:58 +0100
Toralf Förster <toralf@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 12/16/2017 09:34 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> >  I learned from this experience that
> > I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute  

> So there's no need to become a dev to just contribute - but shouldn't
> make it that task easier?

I guess not if your ndewly gained title makes some other developers
think they can treat you as trash, and that yet more developers
entirely fail to stop those few nasties. You might just become more
timid, distrust your own contributions, retreat into a niche where no
one might bother you. That's where the fun stops. I should know. I've
been retreating there for years.[1]

> Therefore my (naive) question - what is the advantage to give away the
> dev status ?

Daniel quite adequately explains that the balanced tipped to the side
of the bad stuff. His story suggests to me that "giving away the dev
status" isn't an apt paraphrasing.



     jer



[1] Even more so this year, when some of the younger developers
invested in several important teams started teaming up and bullying
most other developers in the name of mostly their own cleverness but
also QA, CI and something still ironically called Community Relations.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2017-12-16 13:38 ` Toralf Förster
@ 2017-12-18 17:04 ` Daniel Robbins
  2017-12-30 18:30   ` Raymond Jennings
  2018-01-03  7:50 ` Daniel Campbell
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  7 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Robbins @ 2017-12-18 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10953 bytes --]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks very much for your contributions to Gentoo, and for this detailed
write-up of why you left. It is very informative and enlightening about
what the current challenges with Gentoo are. I am sure mgorny is not the
only senior developer who could benefit from some mentorship/professional
development to improve leadership needed skills related to support and
encouragement of more junior members. These skills often aren't a part of a
geek's innate repertoire but they are absolutely necessary for a successful
open source project.

-Daniel

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee. I joined Gentoo to
> gain experience and give back to the libre software community. In some
> ways, maybe I succeeded a little. I learned from this experience that
> I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute or advance
> my skills, and people will often act against their stated goals if it
> improves their appearance. It taught me how *not* to organize a libre
> software project. The few great experiences I had here at Gentoo sadly
> do not outweigh the negative experiences, and I'm no longer interested
> in beating my head against that brick wall.
>
> Here's a list of the "nothing" I've done in my Gentoo involvement:
>
> As proxy maintainer, I took on these packages to sort of "prove my
> worth":
>
> net-p2p/i2p
> net-p2p/imule
> x11-wm/fluxbox
>
> I knew nothing about Java -- and it probably showed -- but I was willing
> to learn what was necessary to get the ebuilds in better shape. This
> never changed throughout the 2.5 years I was a developer.
>
> pchrist, heroxbd, jlec, and zlogene mentored me and got me up to speed.
> I am grateful for their level of care and attention, and the effort they
> put in alongside me. My recruitment process was protracted due to real
> life, but we eventually pulled through.
>
> After I became a developer, maffblaster welcomed me to the wiki, and
> we even had a conversation over Mumble later on. I later took on more
> packages, enthusiastic to give back to a distro that I liked:
>
> app-cdr/bashburn
> dev-util/astyle
> media-sound/apulse
> media-video/smtube
> net-misc/toxic
> sys-apps/udevil
> www-servers/lighttpd
> x11-misc/alock
> x11-misc/ktsuss
> x11-misc/spacefm
>
> I dipped my hands into any bug I thought I could reasonably solve,
> and sought advice when I didn't know the correct way to do something.
> Sometimes this worked; sometimes I'd realize I didn't have the skill
> necessary, and left it to the more experienced people.
>
> Sometimes, mgorny would show up and tell me that my solution sucked or
> was "braindead", or that such-and-such solution was "common sense",
> with no explanation as to *why* it was "common sense". (this was on
> IRC, though [1] outlines where jcallen had to clarify what I hope
> mgorny intended to communicate) He didn't ever tell me what the correct
> solution was to any given problem that I might've messed up. To this
> end, his criticism served to do nothing but demotivate me. At a later
> point, when monsieurp and I were dealing with file collisions, he
> threatened to have us go through the developer quizzes again. [2] None
> of his criticism was helpful or encouraging. The key to good criticism
> is to be *constructive*, acknowledging the mistakes *AND* the successes.
> Without both, one's communication is morally destructive.
>
> [1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/547524
> [2]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/603526#c6
>
> (careful, the comments might be deleted in response to this e-mail to
> save face)
>
> Later, I was nominated as Trustee by klondike. At first, I didn't think
> I could do the job. Maybe I should've listened to that feeling. But I
> felt it would be rude if I didn't accept a nomination. Nothing ventured,
> nothing gained, right? I didn't expect to be voted for. I had a feeling
> I would be laughed at and would walk away having spent the time on a
> manifesto for nothing. Reality is often stranger than fiction, and I
> found myself in a Trustee role. Given that he was only one rank below me
> in the election, I feel that klondike may have been a better fit for the
> role. I regret accepting the nomination.
>
> robbat2 mentored me on Treasurer duties, when he had the spare time. I
> felt bad that he was spread so thin between his other Gentoo duties,
> mentoring me, and being a parent. Nevertheless, I pushed forward, trying
> to fill the role as best I knew how to. Most of the time, I was afraid
> to touch anything because I understood that money was involved. I didn't
> want to make a mistake and cost us money. Because of that, I only ever
> logged into one account (Paypal), and only to gather the metadata we
> needed to update some records.
>
> mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
> politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
> the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
> everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
> ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
> on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
> projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
> donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
> I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
> (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
> during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
> any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?
>
> These questions led me to my answer: leave the organization. There is no
> point in continuing to try when I will only be berated for screwing up.
> My failures will be paraded to all while my victories go un-noticed and
> unappreciated. This is a losing proposition, leading nowhere. As such, I
> am terminating my involvement with Gentoo Linux and its Foundation.
>
> I'd like to thank everyone who helped me become a developer and trustee,
> and the two positive code reviews I received during my time as a
> developer, by Soap and floppym. They helped me understand not only
> *where* I messed up, but what the solution should've looked like and
> *why* their solutions were better. I don't think either of them really
> like me, but credit given where it's due.
>
> A developer will not progress or become more skilled unless they
> understand those key things (why, how, where). Drive-by insults and
> egotism will drive people away. Gentoo won't improve in this regard
> unless it cares enough to value what people contribute and acknowledge
> when people give constructive reviews. It takes effort from both "sides"
> of a mentorship in order to get any appreciable progress.
>
> When I reached out to members of the Gentoo community, I learned that
> there were a considerable number of users (of all skill levels) who,
> for whatever reason, did not want to go through the process of becoming
> a developer. This told me that there was an imbalance in the value
> proposition; that is, the effort spent to become a developer *appears*
> to be more work than what you get by making it through the process. I
> think this is the core of Gentoo's struggles. Gentoo will continue to
> suffer from manpower problems [3] until it figures out how to improve
> that value proposition. If higher quality recruits are desired, then
> a structured curriculum -- with smaller, focused tests along the way
> -- may be the best way to bring a recruit from "wet behind the ears"
> to "ready to commit on the toolchain". This process is important to
> Gentoo's longevity, and unless its leadership takes this social problem
> seriously, they will find themselves with more work and fewer people.
>
> [3]: Before any glib old-timer pipes up, recall that the Council (your
> leadership) just recently considered a mailing list split and discussed
> package maintenance (i.e. manpower) problems in the same meeting; I hope
> the irony is not lost on others.
>
> I expect to be laughed or jeered at by mgorny and other senior
> developers, but now it's Gentoo's problem, not mine. I've done what I
> thought I could do, and can walk away knowing that I tried. Nobody can
> reasonably ask for more than that.
>
> So long, and thanks for all the fish.
>
> (on the plus side, you can now type 'zl' and Tab in IRC to get zlogene
> instead of me :P)
>
> My Foundation activity follows.
>
> FOUNDATION ACTIVITY TRACKER
> FOR zlg@gentoo.org
>
> 2017-10-08
>     Worked with robbat2 to catch up the MoneyMarket account to match the
> missing
>     statements from 2013-12 to 2015-12.
>
> 2017-10-22
>     Edited the Foundation:Activity Tracker page with the new due date of
> the
>     Treasurer's Annual Report with NM: 2018-11-15
>
> 2017-11-19
>     robbat2 re-encrypted the banking passwords file, granting access to
> online
>     accounts for me to begin converting Paypal transaction data and catch
> up on
>     other financial activity.
>
>     Paypal transaction information from 20170701-20171031 was imported and
>     converted using `make all` in /paypal_raw/; commit pending
>
>     Corrected Ruby call in paypal_raw/Makefile to ruby22
>
>     Added a note in paypal_raw/README about requiring dev-ruby/tzinfo
>
>     The meeting was postponed until Nov 26th, due to Meeting Chair's
> last-minute
>     obligations and a shortage of trustees.
>         * E-mail announcement was sent to -nfp@l.g.o
>         * Wiki page for meeting updated
>         * #gentoo-trustees /topic updated
>
>     Convened with robbat2 on correcting the rubycsv code to include
> Subject: and
>     Note: fields for matching accounts. He later fixed this on his own.
>
> 2017-11-26
>     bug 605336; updated metadata for FOSDEM 2017 LiveDVD production
> reimbursement
>
>     bug 591704; updated metadata for Perl Foundation donation in our loss
> of
>     avenj
>
>     wrote script to update foundation member OpenPGP key IDs to
> fingerprints,
>     per ulm's request:
>     https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/
> f06a3b742e06ddfcb541a822e0210e05
>     sent to trustees@g.o for review
>     used one-liner from robbat2 to fetch fingerprints from LDAP to x-ref
>
>     bug 638036; created bug for shadowz.in request for logo/trademark
> licensing
>         discussion pending
>
> 2017-11-27 to 2017-12-04
>     worked on two more scripts to migrate and upgrade foundation list to
> include
>     full fingerprints (and multiple keys)
>         only script remaining is wikitable creator; a user indicated it
> would
>         be trivial to write, using awk.
>
> EOF
> --
> Daniel Campbell
> OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
> Found on hkp://keys.gnupg.net and other keyservers
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12810 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-18 17:04 ` Daniel Robbins
@ 2017-12-30 18:30   ` Raymond Jennings
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Raymond Jennings @ 2017-12-30 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

You will be sorely missed.

I saw you as amply fit for duty as a trustee and I sincerely hope your
skills find a good use in the open source cause.

*fires a 21 gun salute by gentoo penguins, fired from the shoulders of
Larry the Cow*

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Daniel Robbins <drobbins@funtoo.org> wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
>
> Thanks very much for your contributions to Gentoo, and for this detailed
> write-up of why you left. It is very informative and enlightening about what
> the current challenges with Gentoo are. I am sure mgorny is not the only
> senior developer who could benefit from some mentorship/professional
> development to improve leadership needed skills related to support and
> encouragement of more junior members. These skills often aren't a part of a
> geek's innate repertoire but they are absolutely necessary for a successful
> open source project.
>
> -Daniel
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
>> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee. I joined Gentoo to
>> gain experience and give back to the libre software community. In some
>> ways, maybe I succeeded a little. I learned from this experience that
>> I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute or advance
>> my skills, and people will often act against their stated goals if it
>> improves their appearance. It taught me how *not* to organize a libre
>> software project. The few great experiences I had here at Gentoo sadly
>> do not outweigh the negative experiences, and I'm no longer interested
>> in beating my head against that brick wall.
>>
>> Here's a list of the "nothing" I've done in my Gentoo involvement:
>>
>> As proxy maintainer, I took on these packages to sort of "prove my
>> worth":
>>
>> net-p2p/i2p
>> net-p2p/imule
>> x11-wm/fluxbox
>>
>> I knew nothing about Java -- and it probably showed -- but I was willing
>> to learn what was necessary to get the ebuilds in better shape. This
>> never changed throughout the 2.5 years I was a developer.
>>
>> pchrist, heroxbd, jlec, and zlogene mentored me and got me up to speed.
>> I am grateful for their level of care and attention, and the effort they
>> put in alongside me. My recruitment process was protracted due to real
>> life, but we eventually pulled through.
>>
>> After I became a developer, maffblaster welcomed me to the wiki, and
>> we even had a conversation over Mumble later on. I later took on more
>> packages, enthusiastic to give back to a distro that I liked:
>>
>> app-cdr/bashburn
>> dev-util/astyle
>> media-sound/apulse
>> media-video/smtube
>> net-misc/toxic
>> sys-apps/udevil
>> www-servers/lighttpd
>> x11-misc/alock
>> x11-misc/ktsuss
>> x11-misc/spacefm
>>
>> I dipped my hands into any bug I thought I could reasonably solve,
>> and sought advice when I didn't know the correct way to do something.
>> Sometimes this worked; sometimes I'd realize I didn't have the skill
>> necessary, and left it to the more experienced people.
>>
>> Sometimes, mgorny would show up and tell me that my solution sucked or
>> was "braindead", or that such-and-such solution was "common sense",
>> with no explanation as to *why* it was "common sense". (this was on
>> IRC, though [1] outlines where jcallen had to clarify what I hope
>> mgorny intended to communicate) He didn't ever tell me what the correct
>> solution was to any given problem that I might've messed up. To this
>> end, his criticism served to do nothing but demotivate me. At a later
>> point, when monsieurp and I were dealing with file collisions, he
>> threatened to have us go through the developer quizzes again. [2] None
>> of his criticism was helpful or encouraging. The key to good criticism
>> is to be *constructive*, acknowledging the mistakes *AND* the successes.
>> Without both, one's communication is morally destructive.
>>
>> [1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/547524
>> [2]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/603526#c6
>>
>> (careful, the comments might be deleted in response to this e-mail to
>> save face)
>>
>> Later, I was nominated as Trustee by klondike. At first, I didn't think
>> I could do the job. Maybe I should've listened to that feeling. But I
>> felt it would be rude if I didn't accept a nomination. Nothing ventured,
>> nothing gained, right? I didn't expect to be voted for. I had a feeling
>> I would be laughed at and would walk away having spent the time on a
>> manifesto for nothing. Reality is often stranger than fiction, and I
>> found myself in a Trustee role. Given that he was only one rank below me
>> in the election, I feel that klondike may have been a better fit for the
>> role. I regret accepting the nomination.
>>
>> robbat2 mentored me on Treasurer duties, when he had the spare time. I
>> felt bad that he was spread so thin between his other Gentoo duties,
>> mentoring me, and being a parent. Nevertheless, I pushed forward, trying
>> to fill the role as best I knew how to. Most of the time, I was afraid
>> to touch anything because I understood that money was involved. I didn't
>> want to make a mistake and cost us money. Because of that, I only ever
>> logged into one account (Paypal), and only to gather the metadata we
>> needed to update some records.
>>
>> mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
>> politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
>> the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
>> everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
>> ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
>> on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
>> projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
>> donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
>> I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
>> (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
>> during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
>> any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?
>>
>> These questions led me to my answer: leave the organization. There is no
>> point in continuing to try when I will only be berated for screwing up.
>> My failures will be paraded to all while my victories go un-noticed and
>> unappreciated. This is a losing proposition, leading nowhere. As such, I
>> am terminating my involvement with Gentoo Linux and its Foundation.
>>
>> I'd like to thank everyone who helped me become a developer and trustee,
>> and the two positive code reviews I received during my time as a
>> developer, by Soap and floppym. They helped me understand not only
>> *where* I messed up, but what the solution should've looked like and
>> *why* their solutions were better. I don't think either of them really
>> like me, but credit given where it's due.
>>
>> A developer will not progress or become more skilled unless they
>> understand those key things (why, how, where). Drive-by insults and
>> egotism will drive people away. Gentoo won't improve in this regard
>> unless it cares enough to value what people contribute and acknowledge
>> when people give constructive reviews. It takes effort from both "sides"
>> of a mentorship in order to get any appreciable progress.
>>
>> When I reached out to members of the Gentoo community, I learned that
>> there were a considerable number of users (of all skill levels) who,
>> for whatever reason, did not want to go through the process of becoming
>> a developer. This told me that there was an imbalance in the value
>> proposition; that is, the effort spent to become a developer *appears*
>> to be more work than what you get by making it through the process. I
>> think this is the core of Gentoo's struggles. Gentoo will continue to
>> suffer from manpower problems [3] until it figures out how to improve
>> that value proposition. If higher quality recruits are desired, then
>> a structured curriculum -- with smaller, focused tests along the way
>> -- may be the best way to bring a recruit from "wet behind the ears"
>> to "ready to commit on the toolchain". This process is important to
>> Gentoo's longevity, and unless its leadership takes this social problem
>> seriously, they will find themselves with more work and fewer people.
>>
>> [3]: Before any glib old-timer pipes up, recall that the Council (your
>> leadership) just recently considered a mailing list split and discussed
>> package maintenance (i.e. manpower) problems in the same meeting; I hope
>> the irony is not lost on others.
>>
>> I expect to be laughed or jeered at by mgorny and other senior
>> developers, but now it's Gentoo's problem, not mine. I've done what I
>> thought I could do, and can walk away knowing that I tried. Nobody can
>> reasonably ask for more than that.
>>
>> So long, and thanks for all the fish.
>>
>> (on the plus side, you can now type 'zl' and Tab in IRC to get zlogene
>> instead of me :P)
>>
>> My Foundation activity follows.
>>
>> FOUNDATION ACTIVITY TRACKER
>> FOR zlg@gentoo.org
>>
>> 2017-10-08
>>     Worked with robbat2 to catch up the MoneyMarket account to match the
>> missing
>>     statements from 2013-12 to 2015-12.
>>
>> 2017-10-22
>>     Edited the Foundation:Activity Tracker page with the new due date of
>> the
>>     Treasurer's Annual Report with NM: 2018-11-15
>>
>> 2017-11-19
>>     robbat2 re-encrypted the banking passwords file, granting access to
>> online
>>     accounts for me to begin converting Paypal transaction data and catch
>> up on
>>     other financial activity.
>>
>>     Paypal transaction information from 20170701-20171031 was imported and
>>     converted using `make all` in /paypal_raw/; commit pending
>>
>>     Corrected Ruby call in paypal_raw/Makefile to ruby22
>>
>>     Added a note in paypal_raw/README about requiring dev-ruby/tzinfo
>>
>>     The meeting was postponed until Nov 26th, due to Meeting Chair's
>> last-minute
>>     obligations and a shortage of trustees.
>>         * E-mail announcement was sent to -nfp@l.g.o
>>         * Wiki page for meeting updated
>>         * #gentoo-trustees /topic updated
>>
>>     Convened with robbat2 on correcting the rubycsv code to include
>> Subject: and
>>     Note: fields for matching accounts. He later fixed this on his own.
>>
>> 2017-11-26
>>     bug 605336; updated metadata for FOSDEM 2017 LiveDVD production
>> reimbursement
>>
>>     bug 591704; updated metadata for Perl Foundation donation in our loss
>> of
>>     avenj
>>
>>     wrote script to update foundation member OpenPGP key IDs to
>> fingerprints,
>>     per ulm's request:
>>
>> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/f06a3b742e06ddfcb541a822e0210e05
>>     sent to trustees@g.o for review
>>     used one-liner from robbat2 to fetch fingerprints from LDAP to x-ref
>>
>>     bug 638036; created bug for shadowz.in request for logo/trademark
>> licensing
>>         discussion pending
>>
>> 2017-11-27 to 2017-12-04
>>     worked on two more scripts to migrate and upgrade foundation list to
>> include
>>     full fingerprints (and multiple keys)
>>         only script remaining is wikitable creator; a user indicated it
>> would
>>         be trivial to write, using awk.
>>
>> EOF
>> --
>> Daniel Campbell
>> OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
>> Found on hkp://keys.gnupg.net and other keyservers
>
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
                   ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2017-12-18 17:04 ` Daniel Robbins
@ 2018-01-03  7:50 ` Daniel Campbell
  2018-01-03 14:15   ` Rich Freeman
  2018-01-05  4:02   ` Benda Xu
  2018-01-14  3:00 ` Matthew Thode
  2018-02-11 19:31 ` Matthew Thode
  7 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Campbell @ 2018-01-03  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project; +Cc: trustees

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12131 bytes --]

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 12:34:03AM -0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee. I joined Gentoo to
> gain experience and give back to the libre software community. In some
> ways, maybe I succeeded a little. I learned from this experience that
> I don't need to be a member of a distribution to contribute or advance
> my skills, and people will often act against their stated goals if it
> improves their appearance. It taught me how *not* to organize a libre
> software project. The few great experiences I had here at Gentoo sadly
> do not outweigh the negative experiences, and I'm no longer interested
> in beating my head against that brick wall.
> 
> Here's a list of the "nothing" I've done in my Gentoo involvement:
> 
> As proxy maintainer, I took on these packages to sort of "prove my
> worth":
> 
> net-p2p/i2p
> net-p2p/imule
> x11-wm/fluxbox
> 
> I knew nothing about Java -- and it probably showed -- but I was willing
> to learn what was necessary to get the ebuilds in better shape. This
> never changed throughout the 2.5 years I was a developer.
> 
> pchrist, heroxbd, jlec, and zlogene mentored me and got me up to speed.
> I am grateful for their level of care and attention, and the effort they
> put in alongside me. My recruitment process was protracted due to real
> life, but we eventually pulled through.
> 
> After I became a developer, maffblaster welcomed me to the wiki, and
> we even had a conversation over Mumble later on. I later took on more
> packages, enthusiastic to give back to a distro that I liked:
> 
> app-cdr/bashburn
> dev-util/astyle
> media-sound/apulse
> media-video/smtube
> net-misc/toxic
> sys-apps/udevil
> www-servers/lighttpd
> x11-misc/alock
> x11-misc/ktsuss
> x11-misc/spacefm
> 
> I dipped my hands into any bug I thought I could reasonably solve,
> and sought advice when I didn't know the correct way to do something.
> Sometimes this worked; sometimes I'd realize I didn't have the skill
> necessary, and left it to the more experienced people.
> 
> Sometimes, mgorny would show up and tell me that my solution sucked or
> was "braindead", or that such-and-such solution was "common sense",
> with no explanation as to *why* it was "common sense". (this was on
> IRC, though [1] outlines where jcallen had to clarify what I hope
> mgorny intended to communicate) He didn't ever tell me what the correct
> solution was to any given problem that I might've messed up. To this
> end, his criticism served to do nothing but demotivate me. At a later
> point, when monsieurp and I were dealing with file collisions, he
> threatened to have us go through the developer quizzes again. [2] None
> of his criticism was helpful or encouraging. The key to good criticism
> is to be *constructive*, acknowledging the mistakes *AND* the successes.
> Without both, one's communication is morally destructive.
> 
> [1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/547524
> [2]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/603526#c6
> 
> (careful, the comments might be deleted in response to this e-mail to
> save face)
> 
> Later, I was nominated as Trustee by klondike. At first, I didn't think
> I could do the job. Maybe I should've listened to that feeling. But I
> felt it would be rude if I didn't accept a nomination. Nothing ventured,
> nothing gained, right? I didn't expect to be voted for. I had a feeling
> I would be laughed at and would walk away having spent the time on a
> manifesto for nothing. Reality is often stranger than fiction, and I
> found myself in a Trustee role. Given that he was only one rank below me
> in the election, I feel that klondike may have been a better fit for the
> role. I regret accepting the nomination.
> 
> robbat2 mentored me on Treasurer duties, when he had the spare time. I
> felt bad that he was spread so thin between his other Gentoo duties,
> mentoring me, and being a parent. Nevertheless, I pushed forward, trying
> to fill the role as best I knew how to. Most of the time, I was afraid
> to touch anything because I understood that money was involved. I didn't
> want to make a mistake and cost us money. Because of that, I only ever
> logged into one account (Paypal), and only to gather the metadata we
> needed to update some records.
> 
> mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
> politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
> the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
> everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
> ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
> on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
> projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
> donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
> I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
> (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
> during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
> any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?
> 
> These questions led me to my answer: leave the organization. There is no
> point in continuing to try when I will only be berated for screwing up.
> My failures will be paraded to all while my victories go un-noticed and
> unappreciated. This is a losing proposition, leading nowhere. As such, I
> am terminating my involvement with Gentoo Linux and its Foundation.
> 
> I'd like to thank everyone who helped me become a developer and trustee,
> and the two positive code reviews I received during my time as a
> developer, by Soap and floppym. They helped me understand not only
> *where* I messed up, but what the solution should've looked like and
> *why* their solutions were better. I don't think either of them really
> like me, but credit given where it's due.
> 
> A developer will not progress or become more skilled unless they
> understand those key things (why, how, where). Drive-by insults and
> egotism will drive people away. Gentoo won't improve in this regard
> unless it cares enough to value what people contribute and acknowledge
> when people give constructive reviews. It takes effort from both "sides"
> of a mentorship in order to get any appreciable progress.
> 
> When I reached out to members of the Gentoo community, I learned that
> there were a considerable number of users (of all skill levels) who,
> for whatever reason, did not want to go through the process of becoming
> a developer. This told me that there was an imbalance in the value
> proposition; that is, the effort spent to become a developer *appears*
> to be more work than what you get by making it through the process. I
> think this is the core of Gentoo's struggles. Gentoo will continue to
> suffer from manpower problems [3] until it figures out how to improve
> that value proposition. If higher quality recruits are desired, then
> a structured curriculum -- with smaller, focused tests along the way
> -- may be the best way to bring a recruit from "wet behind the ears"
> to "ready to commit on the toolchain". This process is important to
> Gentoo's longevity, and unless its leadership takes this social problem
> seriously, they will find themselves with more work and fewer people.
> 
> [3]: Before any glib old-timer pipes up, recall that the Council (your
> leadership) just recently considered a mailing list split and discussed
> package maintenance (i.e. manpower) problems in the same meeting; I hope
> the irony is not lost on others.
> 
> I expect to be laughed or jeered at by mgorny and other senior
> developers, but now it's Gentoo's problem, not mine. I've done what I
> thought I could do, and can walk away knowing that I tried. Nobody can
> reasonably ask for more than that.
> 
> So long, and thanks for all the fish.
> 
> (on the plus side, you can now type 'zl' and Tab in IRC to get zlogene
> instead of me :P)
> 
> My Foundation activity follows.
> 
> FOUNDATION ACTIVITY TRACKER
> FOR zlg@gentoo.org
> 
> 2017-10-08
>     Worked with robbat2 to catch up the MoneyMarket account to match the missing
>     statements from 2013-12 to 2015-12.
> 
> 2017-10-22
>     Edited the Foundation:Activity Tracker page with the new due date of the 
>     Treasurer's Annual Report with NM: 2018-11-15
> 
> 2017-11-19
>     robbat2 re-encrypted the banking passwords file, granting access to online
>     accounts for me to begin converting Paypal transaction data and catch up on
>     other financial activity.
> 
>     Paypal transaction information from 20170701-20171031 was imported and 
>     converted using `make all` in /paypal_raw/; commit pending
> 
>     Corrected Ruby call in paypal_raw/Makefile to ruby22
> 
>     Added a note in paypal_raw/README about requiring dev-ruby/tzinfo    
> 
>     The meeting was postponed until Nov 26th, due to Meeting Chair's last-minute
>     obligations and a shortage of trustees.
>         * E-mail announcement was sent to -nfp@l.g.o
>         * Wiki page for meeting updated
>         * #gentoo-trustees /topic updated
> 
>     Convened with robbat2 on correcting the rubycsv code to include Subject: and 
>     Note: fields for matching accounts. He later fixed this on his own.
> 
> 2017-11-26
>     bug 605336; updated metadata for FOSDEM 2017 LiveDVD production reimbursement
> 
>     bug 591704; updated metadata for Perl Foundation donation in our loss of
>     avenj
> 
>     wrote script to update foundation member OpenPGP key IDs to fingerprints, 
>     per ulm's request: 
>     https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/f06a3b742e06ddfcb541a822e0210e05
>     sent to trustees@g.o for review
>     used one-liner from robbat2 to fetch fingerprints from LDAP to x-ref
> 
>     bug 638036; created bug for shadowz.in request for logo/trademark licensing
>         discussion pending
> 
> 2017-11-27 to 2017-12-04
>     worked on two more scripts to migrate and upgrade foundation list to include
>     full fingerprints (and multiple keys)
>         only script remaining is wikitable creator; a user indicated it would
>         be trivial to write, using awk.
> 
> EOF
> -- 
> Daniel Campbell
> OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
> Found on hkp://keys.gnupg.net and other keyservers

After conversing with a few members of the community, I have decided to
remain as a Gentoo Developer. I understand that resignation is not to be
taken lightly. However, it's pointless for me to throw away my effort
just because others may not like what I do.

To that end, I accept the consequences of my resignation as Trustee. I
wish klondike the best in his new role, and hope that he is able to do
what I could not. I will stick around to share my notes and finish the
Foundation member list migration (assuming someone else hasn't beaten me
to it).

I'd like to apologize to the Trustees for causing an abrupt absence
during a time of turmoil and business (holidays and the stress they
entail, etc). Maybe there was a better way to go forward.

To clarify what I said wrt mgorny, I don't care that it was him who was
acting in the fashion that I described. If it had been anyone else, I'd
have felt the same way. I could have phrased things more clearly; I 100%
stand by my commentary regarding the behavior, as that is what I was
targeting.

As for developership, I don't expect any special treatment, like giving
"my" packages back or anything of the sort. I'm going devaway for at
least one month to reconsider my efforts and refocus.

If this is unacceptable, I understand and can live with the consequences
of my prior decision.
-- 
Daniel Campbell
OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
Found on hkp://keys.gnupg.net and other keyservers

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2018-01-03  7:50 ` Daniel Campbell
@ 2018-01-03 14:15   ` Rich Freeman
  2018-01-05  4:02   ` Benda Xu
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2018-01-03 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project; +Cc: Gentoo Trustees

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 2:50 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 12:34:03AM -0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>> Effective today, December 16th, 2017 at 0800 UTC, I am resigning from my
>> position as Gentoo Developer and Foundation Trustee.
>
> After conversing with a few members of the community, I have decided to
> remain as a Gentoo Developer.

While you're busy retracting things, would you care to retract any
false statements you might have publicly made concerning me in the
same email?  I noticed that I didn't make the footnotes.

-- 
Rich


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2018-01-03  7:50 ` Daniel Campbell
  2018-01-03 14:15   ` Rich Freeman
@ 2018-01-05  4:02   ` Benda Xu
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Benda Xu @ 2018-01-05  4:02 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1032 bytes --]

Hi Daniel,

Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> writes:

> After conversing with a few members of the community, I have decided
> to remain as a Gentoo Developer. I understand that resignation is not
> to be taken lightly. However, it's pointless for me to throw away my
> effort just because others may not like what I do.
>
> [...]

I have been reflecting about the issues you experienced.  The political
structure of Gentoo has been flattened.  A single person mistreating
you, regardless of his influence, is just from a single person.  Don't
be demotivated by an exception.

> As for developership, I don't expect any special treatment, like
> giving "my" packages back or anything of the sort. I'm going devaway
> for at least one month to reconsider my efforts and refocus.

That's a reasonable move to clam down.  I sincerely wish that you
develop an intrinsic value with Gentoo during your devaway. An intrinsic
value that peer validation only have an iota of impact.

Happy new year and best regards for 2018.

Cheers,
Benda

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
                   ` (5 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-01-03  7:50 ` Daniel Campbell
@ 2018-01-14  3:00 ` Matthew Thode
  2018-01-14  5:49   ` Daniel Robbins
  2018-02-11 19:31 ` Matthew Thode
  7 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Matthew Thode @ 2018-01-14  3:00 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1233 bytes --]

On 17-12-16 00:34:03, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> 
> mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
> politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
> the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
> everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
> ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
> on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
> projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
> donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
> I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
> (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
> during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
> any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?
> 

zlg has made comments about rich0 that he as been asked to verify.  As
there has been no response to the request for more information, the
Trustees are retracting the comment and wish to apologize to rich0 for
the inconvenience.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
President, Gentoo Foundation

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2018-01-14  3:00 ` Matthew Thode
@ 2018-01-14  5:49   ` Daniel Robbins
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Robbins @ 2018-01-14  5:49 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2928 bytes --]

Maybe I should have reflected more on the original post before replying
too. When I read the original post, it seemed to be a sincere resignation
email. Upon further reflection, I do feel that it was unprofessional to
call individuals out -- *even if* the account was 100% accurate (which it
appears there is some doubt about.)

If someone had a bad experience as a dev for Gentoo, then fine -- share
your experience in the hopes that things will improve. But don't name
names. That isn't professional. If you didn't have a good experience, yes,
that's legitimate feedback.It provides an opportunity to look at the
*project as a whole* and say 'how can we do things better' by improving
processes, etc. so that new devs have a better experience. That can be
shared without calling individuals out. It is not necessary or helpful to
defame people.

Mgorny was maligned in the post. That wasn't right, and for my part I
apologize for 'grabbing the bait' and accepting the original poster's
account at face value.

So, my new, amended response to the original poster: Ugh. I am sincerely
sorry you had a bad experience. Critical feedback is welcome. But let's not
defame people. Perpetuating hostility towards individuals, even if
perceived as being deserved, if anything just makes things worse and
undermines your points. And to solve any problems, the solution needs to be
geared towards finding ways to improve the project as a whole rather than
'punishing' individuals. So we need to get out of that mindset to move
forward. An eye for an eye leaves the world blind.

Sincerely,

-Daniel

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> On 17-12-16 00:34:03, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> >
> > mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
> > politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
> > the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
> > everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
> > ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
> > on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
> > projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
> > donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
> > I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
> > (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
> > during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
> > any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?
> >
>
> zlg has made comments about rich0 that he as been asked to verify.  As
> there has been no response to the request for more information, the
> Trustees are retracting the comment and wish to apologize to rich0 for
> the inconvenience.
>
> --
> Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
> President, Gentoo Foundation
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3658 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-project] Resignation
  2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
                   ` (6 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-01-14  3:00 ` Matthew Thode
@ 2018-02-11 19:31 ` Matthew Thode
  7 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Matthew Thode @ 2018-02-11 19:31 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-project

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2560 bytes --]

On 17-12-16 00:34:03, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> Sometimes, mgorny would show up and tell me that my solution sucked or
> was "braindead", or that such-and-such solution was "common sense",
> with no explanation as to *why* it was "common sense". (this was on
> IRC, though [1] outlines where jcallen had to clarify what I hope
> mgorny intended to communicate) He didn't ever tell me what the correct
> solution was to any given problem that I might've messed up. To this
> end, his criticism served to do nothing but demotivate me. At a later
> point, when monsieurp and I were dealing with file collisions, he
> threatened to have us go through the developer quizzes again. [2] None
> of his criticism was helpful or encouraging. The key to good criticism
> is to be *constructive*, acknowledging the mistakes *AND* the successes.
> Without both, one's communication is morally destructive.
> 
> [1]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/547524
> [2]: https://bugs.gentoo.org/603526#c6
> 
> (careful, the comments might be deleted in response to this e-mail to
> save face)
> 
> mgorny again showed up; this time accusing me of being a "do-nothing
> politician". Thankfully, I kept an activity log of everything I did for
> the Foundation, and `git log --committer=zlg@gentoo.org` will show you
> everything I did in the tree. Yes, I made mistakes. Some of them rookie
> ones. But given that I wasn't being paid for my work, and time spent
> on Gentoo meant time I couldn't spend on other things (like personal
> projects), I needed to make a value decision: was I willing to continue
> donating labor to an organization that didn't notice my work unless
> I screwed up? If I was truly as ineffectual as those who claimed it
> (rich0), what was the point of continuing? The cricitism I received
> during my time as a developer was demotivating and didn't acknowledge
> any of the *correct* things I did; how exactly was I going to improve?
> 
> I expect to be laughed or jeered at by mgorny and other senior
> developers, but now it's Gentoo's problem, not mine. I've done what I
> thought I could do, and can walk away knowing that I tried. Nobody can
> reasonably ask for more than that.
> 

Above quote edited for brevity.

zlg has made comments about mgorny that he as been asked to verify.  As
there has been no response to the request for more information, the
Trustees are retracting the comment and wish to apologize to mgorny for
the inconvenience.

-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
President, Gentoo Foundation

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2018-02-11 19:31 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2017-12-16  8:34 [gentoo-project] Resignation Daniel Campbell
2017-12-16  9:04 ` Richard Yao
2017-12-16 10:59 ` Sergei Trofimovich
2017-12-16 11:04 ` Kristian Fiskerstrand
2017-12-16 13:38 ` Toralf Förster
2017-12-18 16:04   ` Jeroen Roovers
2017-12-18 17:04 ` Daniel Robbins
2017-12-30 18:30   ` Raymond Jennings
2018-01-03  7:50 ` Daniel Campbell
2018-01-03 14:15   ` Rich Freeman
2018-01-05  4:02   ` Benda Xu
2018-01-14  3:00 ` Matthew Thode
2018-01-14  5:49   ` Daniel Robbins
2018-02-11 19:31 ` Matthew Thode

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox