From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A2DD139085 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 18:55:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 73126E1002; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 18:55:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 342FDE1001 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 18:55:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pomiot (d202-252.icpnet.pl [109.173.202.252]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mgorny) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 972B53415D2; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 18:55:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 19:55:30 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBHw7Nybnk=?= To: "William L. Thomson Jr." Cc: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Merging Trustees and Council / Developers and Foundation - 1.0 reply Message-ID: <20170111195519.03d62dfc.mgorny@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: References: <35d4687b-4cbd-cf79-254c-c7476c06bb3a@gentoo.org> <20170111175050.12e5887d.mgorny@gentoo.org> Organization: Gentoo X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="Sig_/g3aRc_R.kotrAKA4vOL41Vn"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Archives-Salt: 5269c071-120f-4588-b02a-5b5a18870671 X-Archives-Hash: 318a828a970cbc2fce8d8a326737bfb9 --Sig_/g3aRc_R.kotrAKA4vOL41Vn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 12:28:35 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr." wrote: > On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 5:50:50 PM EST Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrot= e: > >=20 > > And how is that not discriminating? On one hand you talk of giving > > people outside the project the means to influence it, yet you > > explicitly take away the right of voting for people outside > > the Foundation (even though they are in the project, after all). =20 >=20 > If as a Developer you opt out of Foundation membership. You cannot turn= =20 > around and claim discrimination to something you chose to leave. What if I *have* to opt out because of my employment or local law? For example, if my contract forbids me from being *enlisted* in corporations working in the IT sector? It's easy to argue whether things can or can't happen but will you defend me against a lawsuit from my employer? Will the Foundation guarantee that? As I see it, keeping a low profile should be developer's right. > > I'm not sure if you've seen that but Gentoo developers lately have been > > harassed by multiple users who had no to minor contributions yet > > believed they are the best people to tell developers how do their work.= =20 >=20 > Which is why they would be better served to voice their opinions to Trust= ees.=20 > Let Trustees approach council if they feel it is best. If Council feels t= he=20 > need they could consult Developers. > =20 > > Accepting input is one thing. Letting people who do not do current > > Gentoo work (=3D aren't affected by the decisions directly) decide on > > what others should do is another. =20 >=20 > Just because Foundation, Council, and Gentoo project want to do something= .=20 > Does not mean YOU have to do that. At the same time a project should not = be=20 > just left up to those scratching itches. If by some means all that indivi= dual=20 > itch scratching leads to something collectively great. >=20 > At some point has to be some big picture to how all the stuff fits togeth= er. > Are we a organized team/project or just individuals doing what ever? We are individuals who can get along eventually and make a pretty decent distro as a result. For some time already. > > How can a user who has barely any contact with Gentoo developers be > > able to choose good candidates for the Council? =20 >=20 > Users would never have ability to vote for Council. Foundation members ca= n=20 > only vote for Foundation stuff. Which Council voting would be left to=20 > Developers. ...which would be meaningless with Trustees having the power to override pretty much everything for no apparent reason. > > I don't see how either of those arguments are related to me being > > a Foundation member or not. After all, the Foundation protects *all* > > Gentoo work, independently of whether a developer doing it is a member > > or not, doesn't it? =20 >=20 > So the Foundation and Trustees should be legally liable for all your acti= ons=20 > without any influence? >=20 > You can do what ever you want and we will be liable for your actions. Do = you=20 > want to be liable for all my actions. That is asking way to much of a Tru= stee=20 > IMHO. Be 100% responsible and legally liable with no influence. I'm afraid we don't understand each other. I still don't see how liability is different for person who is a *member* of the Foundation, and for a developer who is not a member of the Foundation. > > They can get recruited. It's not hard. Getting a developer status > > (without commit access) mostly involves proving that you're accustomed > > to organization matters of how Gentoo operates. =20 >=20 > There are many in the community who either cannot or do not want to be co= me=20 > Developers in any capacity. Just the same as those who do not want to be= =20 > members in the Foundation. So why are the people who don't want to be developers privileged over people who don't want to be Foundation members? > > I believe the legal liability concern is a rare enough issue for > > Trustees to be involved rather when that is a possible case rather than > > having them approve every step of everyone else. =20 >=20 > True, but just because no one has sued does not mean the project should n= ot be=20 > aware of such liabilities and seek to protect itself from law suit. You can protect Gentoo from liability without having total control over every aspect of Gentoo. There's a difference between power to make decisions that prevent liability and power to make any decisions. > > It's not perfect but I believe Gentoo could prevail. Maybe it'd even be > > beneficial long-term, since it would let the developers actually doing > > a lot of work to split from those who mostly talk. Pretty much getting > > Gentoo back to the roots, as Daniel Robbins seen it. =20 >=20 > That is not how Daniel sees it, and does not agree with such separation. = That=20 > is what people need to understand. What Gentoo has become it was not inte= nded=20 > to be, nor did it start that way. http://www.funtoo.org/Making_the_Distribution,_Part_1 And here we are, arguing that Gentoo should be lead by people 'who aren't writing any code (nor do they have any intention to). Instead they spend their time talking about more important things. You know, those managerial issues'. --=20 Best regards, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny --Sig_/g3aRc_R.kotrAKA4vOL41Vn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEbbsHzE8NrQbqCv5BsHoa6u+0Rk4FAlh2f6JfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDZE QkIwN0NDNEYwREFEMDZFQTBBRkU0MUIwN0ExQUVBRUZCNDQ2NEUACgkQsHoa6u+0 Rk6faxAA3c9QlbwXYr5Yj1VYJ/qkycfv/bzoRuMG1dieimBnVMzOTMZ+vAtjVUjI bw1arB8Di+R+bKzy5al3iIZrd5PD55cFHAg2CGh/AmgOhWzLKbNtP/sa7nyDZ/b7 5mg6IeEDA73EsvU700XJU/vbeLhphHrYif+Hru+iQ1XI70PFJ6oKwC4iBVuvdXfZ q9MsoQgEtGEWahvy8XfcZr9B2V/UJT8ZWxViR2l7A3W5pdQKUj8m6J1gY1h2Tser 5DAbleSgC4TuYKF3jAMDQDCzA8MOVt5wqyDX1gfamL3OQSN6qplPOD/DU7Q1hrI3 ohp1OQSFAORrKjc/d/l0Hs7g3T0U157wRHDK/DnEEXuy0OolZPx2yP8xc9enXM8c cwjB/usri7ZE8l2ZZD1Y9431eFzmC6B1l14oTg34V1W0d8o/2bSLRr8Lx4BUwWoC uHKN7gbZpiLgml1scARmGk37oOUexgYR5HXDJeQzDCfl2b3Ae44NUXhngcd82B8o QQWLfCDODEfhbOYvvr/Zwy5Vfyj9iL50wOeIAfcQJKHri+XDQpLjJIhQK+mFrZlj +DjGZ4im00LXBFMQ7PGbzLxDxXa0reHmcNg4HBxSv2ZSWB/o9jUcOswIjuKZWUF+ XUnBTHvivPbZnf8+D5thU19vJV8HXFgo4wv7sYirsy5TD8a/c4E= =pot8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/g3aRc_R.kotrAKA4vOL41Vn--