From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9893413877A for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:24:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 167BDE08EE; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:24:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73538E08EA for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:24:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pomiot.lan (77-254-77-139.adsl.inetia.pl [77.254.77.139]) (using SSLv3 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mgorny) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 527083401AA; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:24:09 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 13:24:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?B?TWljaGGzIEfzcm55?= To: Rich Freeman Cc: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org, Michael Sterrett , games@gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2014-08-12 Message-ID: <20140802132433.7081564f@pomiot.lan> In-Reply-To: References: <21463.26330.847055.224071@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <1901231.LPrcrkj2db@kailua> <1922162.cLrbk3D9LS@kailua> Organization: Gentoo X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.10.1 (GTK+ 2.24.24; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="Sig_/ooVtYaXXMdVbJ=SwpO=qtVA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Archives-Salt: 30e0ae44-3994-442e-b3aa-2972c339ccdd X-Archives-Hash: 79b74b21b653431bf3d6505cd6ec04dc --Sig_/ooVtYaXXMdVbJ=SwpO=qtVA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dnia 2014-07-31, o godz. 06:53:50 Rich Freeman napisa=B3(a): > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Andreas K. Huettel > wrote: > >> I didn't bother replying before because I think my assumption was that > >> the council was clever enough to recognize silly when they saw it. > >> There never was a compelling argument for dispelling policy set by > >> groups in the general case and I'm not sure why the games group would > >> be considered to have lesser status in that regard. > > > > That actually doesn't address any of the issues brought up. > > > > The main question is, why should the games team have more status than o= ther > > projects? >=20 > ++ >=20 > Generally I am in favor of giving projects that adhere to GLEP39 more > of a say in things than individual maintainers, but setting aside > QA/Comrel/Infra there aren't really any projects out there which claim > the same kind of scope as games. Amd64 might have a say over your > KEYWORDS, or systemd might want to install a text file you don't have > to look at, but none of them are going to basically rewrite your > ebuild, rename it, or tell you to get it out of the tree. The > Gnome/KDE projects don't care if you install an application that uses > libkde/etc, though you'd do well to coordinate if you don't want > random breakage on the next big change. Well, just to be clear, I don't mind GNOME/KDE claiming maintainership over core components of both DEs. Much like I don't even mind games team maintaining core components necessary for gaming like SDL. > If this were just an issue about games not accepting new members I > think that would be pretty trivial to fix, but I haven't gotten any > replies to my solicitation. So, this is more than whether the lead > responds to member requests. I'm afraid that games team is a bit like upside-down compared to other teams, and that is a social issue. While pretty much every other team is happy to accept contributors, games team feels -- lightly said -- unwelcome. I don't think you can really resolve it via jamming it new members by force. While I can't speak for the specific people, I think they are pretty much afraid that such an attempt would result in they feeling unwelcome, and possibly having no real status. > Some options open to the council are: > 1. Let the games project keep its policy, and anybody who wants to > change this has to join the project and call for elections (the > council can shoe-horn members onto the project if necessary). As I see it, this can have two results: a. games team elects new lead from current members, nothing changes, b. you shoe-horn enough new members to force a new lead amongst them, and existing members likely leave the project because of this. > 2. Directly tweak games policy but preserve the project and its > scope. So, games would still have to adhere to games project policy, > but the Council might change specific policies (use of eclass, group, > etc). This doesn't feel correct to have team policies set by Council, and again, the games team is likely to either ignore the decision or disband itself because of it. > 3. Restrict the games project scope, such as giving it authority if > the package maintainer elects to put it in the games herd. I'd dare say this is not something the Council needs to do but only to confirm. I'd be really happy to drop games from my game packages as soon as Council confirms that the games team isn't allowed to use that as an excuse to remove them or take over the maintainership. > Do we really have a sense for how much demand there is for change? #4 > (or something equivalent like nicely asking games to deal with this) > might make sense if we think this is really just 2-3 devs with an > opinion, and that there isn't a larger demand out there. It's not as simple as some people disliking how things are. I believe that the policies and behavior of the games team is the reason why people are getting discouraged from contributing. As a result, we have games team which can't handle the workload, few contributors which have patience to work with games team and a lot of people who would be happy to improve gaming experience in Gentoo but simply lost the will to or otherwise lost the ability to improve their ebuild skills. --=20 Best regards, Micha=B3 G=F3rny --Sig_/ooVtYaXXMdVbJ=SwpO=qtVA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJT3MpxXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQ2REJCMDdDQzRGMERBRDA2RUEwQUZFNDFC MDdBMUFFQUVGQjQ0NjRFAAoJELB6GurvtEZO1eMP/Rh18aXIZO/Bm/p+Uyx/7PcN 33YZ66GatJ+DXbVbu2Nk775rHJdILQvyKsp3WLePznqxOcAIUSk7xuZV5NjYVcWE S2HREGOxsd87t9k5QlWq1qHgc6hGVfT6YF3CW15RZxfnGuQXqTsZ+Th2e3eeJczM 929fMyfzoWBwzMeEMUl/nH9iAK2+II74Cd9F+P2RImpOooDSaBIdKi+u7QhJzoOd z0HeCwl2KKAK9toVouSEOAIkJaefv0lwS2G3ECyrOFz6cNYhxRThp46huNUg23/y EMy7zVJHj6RM4o5UjEt6DELvOun2dCRcwO7ami+zOEJdOT4QDSsbkZ4yuAs0WpVL OSG4/3Wc8I21JVkgesGt2WnYIXPBZe7cLJaVonG6y1PrNNm936RpDzH/BPVFgiMD FMBkq/PqQqlqJEAc+12Bpfx3WgKr1UZZLcOZoO6rQc1M71PrZO9dqwq7/0iWcDj7 3hIbneqAfFFGGyUGGZZybPMkFJg0LH1lHybuGq9lraFeATF7lBRy6yu6LpgNrtLv h4CRFAQixZbcqVExrcJYLqMweY8a/cy6h68BZMjQOk+w1pYXgzrilMnMkoIR10lz brjBNGrv1zNoY0CcGYw1X/oZjakrWG+Au3sgltyzpWbV/Re6/Owle2pEGptV/G4d 5J4rAyr37f/oJSPjWoas =658f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/ooVtYaXXMdVbJ=SwpO=qtVA--