From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9681381F3 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:10:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 845B3E09BC; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:10:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C34DE09BA for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:10:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F7433BF3E for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:10:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at gentoo.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.022, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.373, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([IPv6:::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [IPv6:::ffff:127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZSQuwUunUCEj for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:10:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from plane.gmane.org (plane.gmane.org [80.91.229.3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 265F933DC24 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 05:10:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UPQok-0007iz-9k for gentoo-project@gentoo.org; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 07:10:02 +0200 Received: from 71-17-69-121.yktn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca ([71.17.69.121]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 07:10:02 +0200 Received: from dirtyepic by 71-17-69-121.yktn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 07:10:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org From: Ryan Hill Subject: [gentoo-project] Re: Call for agenda items - Council meeting 2013-04-09 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 23:20:28 -0600 Organization: Gentoo Message-ID: <20130408232028.56cdad67@caribou.gateway.2wire.net> References: <20817.55135.354752.397336@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <201304070037.28554.dilfridge@gentoo.org> <20130406200511.01d4c0e9@caribou.gateway.2wire.net> <201304071409.03862.dilfridge@gentoo.org> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA512; boundary="Sig_/TZFF.6xuixXE=FaM/XCNwm0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 71-17-69-121.yktn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 3.9.0 (GTK+ 2.24.17; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-Archives-Salt: 71226c84-13c1-49ef-85d9-c182e1d3d691 X-Archives-Hash: 55ace4746f8b7cfde04e55f939bb8d5e --Sig_/TZFF.6xuixXE=FaM/XCNwm0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:08:57 +0200 "Andreas K. Huettel" wrote: > Am Sonntag, 7. April 2013, 04:05:11 schrieb Ryan Hill: > > Toolchain packages, for better or worse, are built by eclass. We are n= ot > > forward-porting toolchain.eclass every time someone decides there are t= oo > > many EAPIs in the tree. Every change to that eclass breaks something (= the > > trick is to break things people don't care about any more and hope no o= ne > > notices).=20 >=20 > I'm sorry, but this comes over roughly like follows: >=20 > "We're the only ones doing really complex stuff in the tree, you know,=20 > eclasses! Can't really be bothered to clean up the code, especially not f= or=20 > such pointless things as improvements in package manager handling. Our co= de > is highly complex and really fragile, so every small change breaks things. > We're trying to hide this as well as we can, thank you for not noticing." Hrm. I just meant that package eclasses suck. I hate the fact that they effectively make stable moot. There is no such thing as a stable keyword f= or a package built by an eclass. It's like working without a net. When it's a = core system package it's twice as bad. As far as these eclasses go, toolchain is the worst. Yes, it is fragile and complex. It's over a decade's worth of spaghetti code. It builds 12 y= ears of gcc releases. It's hairy. Everything depends on everything else, and everything is based on assumptions and implications that may or may not sti= ll be relevant. Making "obviously" correct changes has often broken something somewhere else, time and again. I'm not telling you this for some kind of perverse bragging rights. It's not something to be proud of. I just want = you to understand how easy it is to fuck things up. When it breaks, it breaks stable. I absolutely hate breaking stable. I lo= se sleep over it. So I'm sorry if I come across as "we can't be bothered", but I'm not changi= ng things if they don't absolutely need to be changed. There are two of us. Mi= ke takes care of half the tree. I have maybe an hour or two for Gentoo a night and I spend all that time fixing already existing bugs. I would absolutely love to overhaul the eclass - I think I would learn a hell of a lot doing i= t - but I don't have the time to deal with the fallout and frankly I'm not that irresponsible that I would put people through that just for my own amusemen= t. If someone else wants to try and improve the situation, please feel free. So unless you're lobbying for the actual removal of EAPI 0, which I don't t= hink you are, I don't think we'll be changing at this time. --=20 gcc-porting toolchain, wxwidgets by design, by negl= ect @ gentoo.org for a fact or just for eff= ect --Sig_/TZFF.6xuixXE=FaM/XCNwm0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJRY6UkAAoJEO04vUmVeoRjXnsH/1JWctKTLjDBXk1ScDWAcLUk cGEW+vU15d++14XrsiVuJfj8ji3e+46w4TO7unJygNINjR7U71czxiOLwSoxhuSX Q40KLuHOZ+jCmpW7Pw1SjysJh76qZaPeStPFg90SEl7KhYm3Skyjh80v8r1hPhHA 1bq2tKf4gLJLX69wt/jrk3XMQwV2X3IF0Fyjrc9dWHpaybmNLdmTzqZ/iGXNQHdB XvNsNab42i8ya3niVhctfqhzEIaMYO1UHGl81WCJm6+Bq+A31FiRrzJwdauFjCni HqVWlIlmbJoLOm6hhq3wFuUl38xbHmnGrKhUJcX2hsBe30D97pjpiooUbjpV+S8= =CxPZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/TZFF.6xuixXE=FaM/XCNwm0--