[gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Steve Long]

Sorry this and other mail (which had some stuff on old discussion, sorry) 
didn't go thru gmane, despite getting confirmation back from gentoo for 
subscribe-nomail. I'm enclosing the cruft in case someone wants to chase it 
with gmane:
Subject: Re: Improving developer/user communication
From: Steve Long <..>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:56:54 +0100
Newsgroup: gmane.linux.gentoo.project

George Prowse wrote:

> Ok, suggestion No1:
> 
> We put out messages in the communication channels (topics on irc, the
> forums, GWN, and any others we can think of) saying that we would like
> massive feedback from the users.
> 
Er massive feedback about what exactly? The point of this list is to discuss
non-technical aspects of development. Can't we just do that without a
massive survey?

> Once we get feedback then the individual pieces of info can be discussed
> and voted on in the channels.
> 
> I dont know how much info we'll get back but...
> 
A load of cruft most likely ;)

> Also, a thought is a questionaire online saying "what would you like to
> see?" "what do you think should be changed?" etc
> 
Why not just do a massive campaign to inform users of the list and ask them
to post here if they have any concerns about the direction gentoo is
taking, how they contribute and whatever else is on their minds (so long as
it's not support!) Although to be honest, how to get involved is already
covered on the forums:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-508816.html
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-503491.html (2nd and 3rd posts)
..and this list will hopefully be a good place for all the non-code stuff.

Bugzilla is your friend, and don't forget #gentoo-dev-help, #bash and
#friendly-coders on irc.freenode.org :-)
-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-project] Improving developer/user communication

[George Prowse]

Well, i'm not sure if this list is working because I have not yet 
recieved any emails from it but...

What ideas do people have for improving relations?
-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Allen Brooker]

George Prowse wrote:
> Well, i'm not sure if this list is working because I have not yet
> recieved any emails from it but...
>
> What ideas do people have for improving relations?

(Resend, apologies if this appears twice)

What about making more use of the announce list? At the moment it's only
ever used for GLSA's, which from talking to a few people at Gentoo UK
and on IRC, most seem to use the utilities for anyway.

Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list that is
used for announcing important package changes? The list could also be
used for other announcements (not sure exactly what - events where
Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other things). If people feel that
using the same list for other announcements too would create too much
traffic, consider creating multiple lists, which would allow people to
subscribe to only the types of messages that they want to see.

These lists could be heavily advertised on the forums and in the Gentoo
Handbook.

To remark on this "we'll only get atypical users responding so we
shouldn't ask at all" view, that's just silly. In my view, open source
is about community, and if people don't speak up then that's just their
choice. Why should everyone suffer just because some people don't want
to interact?

Surely developers can weigh up the feedback they get and decide for
themselves what might be atypical and what might be useful? And I think
that if you do it right, word will spread and more people will respond
over time. Sure, you'll never get everyone, but that's life.

Have you considered that many users may currently believe that there
aren't any ways they can communicate with developers generally? Or even
if they do know about IRC and mailing lists, believe that the developers
don't want to hear what they have to say?

On that note, an idea to get more users involved: What about scheduled
developer chats with specific projects where users can openly ask
questions and developers can perhaps give updates on what they've been
up to recently? They don't have to be particularly frequent - once a
month rotating round different projects or something.

Another idea could be to create a specific "developer Q&A" forum where
developers can pose questions to the users and perhaps vice-versa too
(some sort of moderation system for questions from users might be
required, and yes it would require work, but doesn't anything that
involves interacting with users?)

AllenJB

-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Donnie Berkholz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 651 bytes --]

Allen Brooker wrote:
> Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list that is
> used for announcing important package changes? The list could also be
> used for other announcements (not sure exactly what - events where
> Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other things). If people feel that
> using the same list for other announcements too would create too much
> traffic, consider creating multiple lists, which would allow people to
> subscribe to only the types of messages that they want to see.

Just made it at the same time as this one: gentoo-dev-announce. We're
still working out the policy.

Thanks,
Donnie


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

[gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Allen Brooker]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Allen Brooker wrote:
>> Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list that is
>> used for announcing important package changes? The list could also be
>> used for other announcements (not sure exactly what - events where
>> Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other things). If people feel that
>> using the same list for other announcements too would create too much
>> traffic, consider creating multiple lists, which would allow people to
>> subscribe to only the types of messages that they want to see.
> 
> Just made it at the same time as this one: gentoo-dev-announce. We're
> still working out the policy.
> 
> Thanks,
> Donnie
> 
According to http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml (and my impression
from the name) that list appears to be for developer-targeted announcements.

What I was thinking was something along the lines of some of the
post-install messages (not all of them, just the important ones that
might actually (appear to) break things - eg. glibc upgrade - "you can't
downgrade"; gcc upgrade - "follow the guide here; coreutils upgrade -
"some locations have changed - run 'hash -r' to clear the cache"; etc.)
and other user-targeted messages to be sent to a list.

Allen

-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Allen Brooker]

Allen Brooker wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> Allen Brooker wrote:
>>> Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list that is
>>> used for announcing important package changes? The list could also be
>>> used for other announcements (not sure exactly what - events where
>>> Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other things). If people feel that
>>> using the same list for other announcements too would create too much
>>> traffic, consider creating multiple lists, which would allow people to
>>> subscribe to only the types of messages that they want to see.
>> Just made it at the same time as this one: gentoo-dev-announce. We're
>> still working out the policy.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donnie
>>
> According to http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml (and my impression
> from the name) that list appears to be for developer-targeted announcements.
> 
> What I was thinking was something along the lines of some of the
> post-install messages (not all of them, just the important ones that
> might actually (appear to) break things - eg. glibc upgrade - "you can't
> downgrade"; gcc upgrade - "follow the guide here; coreutils upgrade -
> "some locations have changed - run 'hash -r' to clear the cache"; etc.)
> and other user-targeted messages to be sent to a list.
> 
> Allen
> 
On a side note, I do know there's ELOG for some of what I'm talking
about, but as I see it the two problems with it are that:
1) Not everyone knows about it
2) You don't get the messages until after you've installed something. I
believe users should have warning of "major" upgrades before they
perform them.

Allen

-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Allen Brooker]

Allen Brooker wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> Allen Brooker wrote:
>>> Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list that is
>>> used for announcing important package changes? The list could also be
>>> used for other announcements (not sure exactly what - events where
>>> Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other things). If people feel that
>>> using the same list for other announcements too would create too much
>>> traffic, consider creating multiple lists, which would allow people to
>>> subscribe to only the types of messages that they want to see.
>> Just made it at the same time as this one: gentoo-dev-announce. We're
>> still working out the policy.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donnie
>>
> According to http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml (and my impression
> from the name) that list appears to be for developer-targeted announcements.
> 
> What I was thinking was something along the lines of some of the
> post-install messages (not all of them, just the important ones that
> might actually (appear to) break things - eg. glibc upgrade - "you can't
> downgrade"; gcc upgrade - "follow the guide here; coreutils upgrade -
> "some locations have changed - run 'hash -r' to clear the cache"; etc.)
> and other user-targeted messages to be sent to a list.
> 
> Allen
> 
I've also just been reminded about GLEP 42 [1] - What's the current
status and what are the hold-ups, if any? How can they be overcome?

Allen

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml

-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Alec Warner]

On 7/21/07, Allen Brooker <gmane@allenjb.me.uk> wrote:
> Allen Brooker wrote:
> > Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> >> Allen Brooker wrote:
> >>> Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list that is
> >>> used for announcing important package changes? The list could also be
> >>> used for other announcements (not sure exactly what - events where
> >>> Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other things). If people feel that
> >>> using the same list for other announcements too would create too much
> >>> traffic, consider creating multiple lists, which would allow people to
> >>> subscribe to only the types of messages that they want to see.
> >> Just made it at the same time as this one: gentoo-dev-announce. We're
> >> still working out the policy.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Donnie
> >>
> > According to http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml (and my impression
> > from the name) that list appears to be for developer-targeted announcements.
> >
> > What I was thinking was something along the lines of some of the
> > post-install messages (not all of them, just the important ones that
> > might actually (appear to) break things - eg. glibc upgrade - "you can't
> > downgrade"; gcc upgrade - "follow the guide here; coreutils upgrade -
> > "some locations have changed - run 'hash -r' to clear the cache"; etc.)
> > and other user-targeted messages to be sent to a list.
> >
> > Allen
> >
> I've also just been reminded about GLEP 42 [1] - What's the current
> status and what are the hold-ups, if any? How can they be overcome?

Afaik there is current no news reader for portage; but there is one
for paludis (eselect-news or something)

We have been syncing news items to you since spring, but no one has
used the functionality yet.

>
> Allen
>
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml
>
> --
> gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Marius Mauch]

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:42:34 -0700
"Alec Warner" <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 7/21/07, Allen Brooker <gmane@allenjb.me.uk> wrote:
> > Allen Brooker wrote:
> > > Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > >> Allen Brooker wrote:
> > >>> Could we create a very-low-traffic, developer-posts-only list
> > >>> that is used for announcing important package changes? The list
> > >>> could also be used for other announcements (not sure exactly
> > >>> what - events where Gentoo devs will be, regional meets, other
> > >>> things). If people feel that using the same list for other
> > >>> announcements too would create too much traffic, consider
> > >>> creating multiple lists, which would allow people to subscribe
> > >>> to only the types of messages that they want to see.
> > >> Just made it at the same time as this one: gentoo-dev-announce.
> > >> We're still working out the policy.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Donnie
> > >>
> > > According to http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml (and my
> > > impression from the name) that list appears to be for
> > > developer-targeted announcements.
> > >
> > > What I was thinking was something along the lines of some of the
> > > post-install messages (not all of them, just the important ones
> > > that might actually (appear to) break things - eg. glibc upgrade
> > > - "you can't downgrade"; gcc upgrade - "follow the guide here;
> > > coreutils upgrade - "some locations have changed - run 'hash -r'
> > > to clear the cache"; etc.) and other user-targeted messages to be
> > > sent to a list.
> > >
> > > Allen
> > >
> > I've also just been reminded about GLEP 42 [1] - What's the current
> > status and what are the hold-ups, if any? How can they be overcome?
> 
> Afaik there is current no news reader for portage; but there is one
> for paludis (eselect-news or something)

You missed bug 179064, still waiting for some reaction from the eselect
people (if there are any alive).

> We have been syncing news items to you since spring, but no one has
> used the functionality yet.

Probably because (released) portage versions didn't support it, and the
paludis implementation wasn't fully compliant with the GLEP as well.

Marius
-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 609 bytes --]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:40:49 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> You missed bug 179064, still waiting for some reaction from the
> eselect people (if there are any alive).

The eselect people aren't involved, since it's not being shipped as
part of eselect itself (the aim is to stop shipping modules with
eselect in favour of external packages where possible). The module
itself is in the tree and ready to be ported to Portage by anyone
interested (note that the earlier port is no good, since it lacks some
of the functionality of the version in the tree).

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Marius Mauch]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:56:59 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:40:49 +0200
> Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > You missed bug 179064, still waiting for some reaction from the
> > eselect people (if there are any alive).
> 
> The eselect people aren't involved, since it's not being shipped as
> part of eselect itself (the aim is to stop shipping modules with
> eselect in favour of external packages where possible). The module
> itself is in the tree and ready to be ported to Portage by anyone
> interested (note that the earlier port is no good, since it lacks some
> of the functionality of the version in the tree).

I'd rather hear that from someone who's actually in charge of eselect.

Marius
-- 
gentoo-project@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Improving developer/user communication

[Ciaran McCreesh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1038 bytes --]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:21:46 +0200
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:56:59 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:
> > The eselect people aren't involved, since it's not being shipped as
> > part of eselect itself (the aim is to stop shipping modules with
> > eselect in favour of external packages where possible). The module
> > itself is in the tree and ready to be ported to Portage by anyone
> > interested (note that the earlier port is no good, since it lacks
> > some of the functionality of the version in the tree).
> 
> I'd rather hear that from someone who's actually in charge of eselect.

Then you're out of luck, since he's busy with other things and is
probably going to be resigning soon. So you'll just have to settle for
hearing it from everyone who's discussed that kind of thing with him in
the past.

*shrug* Not that I care. I'm not being screwed over by you sitting
around waiting for an answer you probably won't ever get.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]