From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8AE139083 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 17:05:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10722E101D; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 17:05:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (dev.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E9D3E0FE8; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 17:05:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pomiot (d202-252.icpnet.pl [109.173.202.252]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mgorny) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BFD2833BEAC; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 17:05:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <1512407105.2112.7.camel@gentoo.org> Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists From: =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?= To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Cc: gentoo-dev Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 18:05:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <1512256684.30000.48.camel@gentoo.org> Organization: Gentoo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.24.5 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: 2dce0174-b1dd-47e3-88ef-9e238fbcd306 X-Archives-Hash: 9154dc9428131fb654a06c52dffe2ccd W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 14∶06 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner napisał: > On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote: > > The problems of more abusive behavior from some of the mailing list > > members have been reported to ComRel numerous times. After the failure > > of initial enforcement, I'm not aware of ComRel doing anything to solve > > the problem. The main arguments I've heard from ComRel members were: > > > > A. Bans can be trivially evaded, and history proves that those evasions > > create more noise than leaving the issue as is. > > That's absurd. "We shouldn't enforce rules because people can break the rules" > > > B. People should be allowed to express their opinion [even if it's pure > > hate speech that carries no value to anyone]. > > That's absurd. There's no reason to have to tolerate non-constructive > conversation on our own mailing lists. Classify it as off topic. We > tell people their posts are off topic for a particular mailing list > all the time. > > > C. The replies of Gentoo developers were worse [no surprise that people > > lose their patience after being attacked for a few months]. > > That's absurd. You have to look at where the problem starts to fix it, > not engage in whataboutism. > > > The alternative suggested by ComRel pretty much boiled down to 'ignore > > the trolls'. While we can see this is actually starting to happen right > > now (even the most determined developers stopped replying), this doesn't > > really solve the problem because: > > That's absurd. The whole point of bringing problems to ComRel is so > they can solve it. Telling people to deal with it is explicitly not > solving the problem. > > > The Gentoo community (not just the developers) would stand to benefit > from a capable and competent ComRel team. It's very sad that we don't > have that. > > Unfortunately, my experience is much the same as yours. ComRel > explicitly refused to act when a bug reporter was repeatedly abusive, > instead arguing that he didn't do anything wrong and that I shouldn't > be so offended. Even the user disagreed with ComRel, apologizing and > saying that his own behavior was out of line when I confronted him. > That's absurd. I have to formally point out that during this Council's term we haven't had a single complaint about actions (or lack thereof) of ComRel. -- Best regards, Michał Górny