[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Pacho Ramos]

El lun, 03-11-2014 a las 22:05 -0500, Rich Freeman escribió:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > The next Gentoo Council meeting is on 11 Nov 2014 at 19:00 UTC.
> >
> > The draft agenda will be updated at:
> > http://dev.gentoo.org/~rich0/council/council_agenda_20141111.txt
> >
> 
> The agenda is posted at the URL above.  It is not too late for
> last-minute additions.  You aren't going to let us off this easily,
> are you?
> 

I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to also be
subscribed to gentoo-dev ML because a lot of stuff is discussed there
and some people look to not follow threads there until they don't
escalate to other lists or to the Council directly :/

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 05/11/14 11:41, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to
> also be subscribed to gentoo-dev ML
The only possible outcomes of this is that people either disobey the
rule, or route all that traffic to its own directory that they
effectively treat as a rubbish bin.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Pacho Ramos]

El mié, 05-11-2014 a las 11:43 +0100, Alexander Berntsen escribió:
> On 05/11/14 11:41, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to
> > also be subscribed to gentoo-dev ML
> The only possible outcomes of this is that people either disobey the
> rule, or route all that traffic to its own directory that they
> effectively treat as a rubbish bin.

Yeah, but, in fact, most people are using gentoo-dev ML for discussing
important things and, currently, people don't wanting to follow them can
always tell us that we should have discussed all that in other list that
they are forced to follow. 

I mean: they can still ignore the threads there... but they are on their
own if some important decision is taken there and they missed it because
they send all mails to their trash.

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 05/11/14 11:49, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> I mean: they can still ignore the threads there... but they are on
> their own if some important decision is taken there and they missed
> it because they send all mails to their trash.
If you are discussing something that you think may directly affect
some devs or their work, I think the courteous thing to do would be
CC-ing them, or pinging them on IRC.

Instead of making up yet another law to punish negative behaviour, we
should be encouraging positive behaviour. Everyone can stand to be
nice to each other.
- -- 
Alexander
bernalex@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Patrick Lauer]

On 11/05/14 18:41, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El lun, 03-11-2014 a las 22:05 -0500, Rich Freeman escribió:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> The next Gentoo Council meeting is on 11 Nov 2014 at 19:00 UTC.
>>>
>>> The draft agenda will be updated at:
>>> http://dev.gentoo.org/~rich0/council/council_agenda_20141111.txt
>>>
>>
>> The agenda is posted at the URL above.  It is not too late for
>> last-minute additions.  You aren't going to let us off this easily,
>> are you?
>>
> 
> I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to also be
> subscribed to gentoo-dev ML because a lot of stuff is discussed there
> and some people look to not follow threads there until they don't
> escalate to other lists or to the Council directly :/
> 
And so history repeats itself every other year ;)

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 5:49 AM, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> El mié, 05-11-2014 a las 11:43 +0100, Alexander Berntsen escribió:
>> On 05/11/14 11:41, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>> > I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to
>> > also be subscribed to gentoo-dev ML
>> The only possible outcomes of this is that people either disobey the
>> rule, or route all that traffic to its own directory that they
>> effectively treat as a rubbish bin.
>
> I mean: they can still ignore the threads there... but they are on their
> own if some important decision is taken there and they missed it because
> they send all mails to their trash.
>

They can ignore the threads on -dev now, and they're still just as on
their own if they miss something important.

* While it is any developer's choice not to participate on the gentoo-dev and
gentoo-project mailing lists, they nevertheless serve as main communication
channels. If something has been discussed there, and then action has been taken,
the council regards ignorance of the discussion not as a good  foundation for
protests against the actions.

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20140408-summary.txt

I'd have to go back and re-read - I don't think that the Council was
specifically asked to make gentoo-dev mandatory.  I can put that on
the agenda, but my personal opinion is that it is unlikely to result
in anything other than re-iterating the statement above, and leaving
gentoo-dev non-mandatory, with the existing guidelines for using
-dev-announce, etc.  My personal opinion is that if devs want to just
maintain their packages in peace and follow new policies when they are
poked about them, I don't see the harm in it.  If devs want to have a
big say in what the policies are, then they're going to get their
hands dirty.

Let me know if you still want this on the agenda.  I speak for the
council only in the sense that I'm quoting the recent decision.

Re: Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Andreas K. Huettel]

> El mié, 05-11-2014 a las 11:43 +0100, Alexander Berntsen escribió:
> > On 05/11/14 11:41, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > > I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to
> > > also be subscribed to gentoo-dev ML
> > 
> > The only possible outcomes of this is that people either disobey the
> > rule, or route all that traffic to its own directory that they
> > effectively treat as a rubbish bin.
> 
> Yeah, but, in fact, most people are using gentoo-dev ML for discussing
> important things and, currently, people don't wanting to follow them can
> always tell us that we should have discussed all that in other list that
> they are forced to follow.
> 
> I mean: they can still ignore the threads there... but they are on their
> own if some important decision is taken there and they missed it because
> they send all mails to their trash.

That's already the case now.
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/3549

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer
kde, council

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[hasufell]

On 11/05/2014 12:06 PM, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> And so history repeats itself every other year ;)
> 

Guess why. Because not enough people give a s**t.

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Pacho Ramos]

El mié, 05-11-2014 a las 07:33 -0500, Rich Freeman escribió:
> On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 5:49 AM, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > El mié, 05-11-2014 a las 11:43 +0100, Alexander Berntsen escribió:
> >> On 05/11/14 11:41, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> >> > I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to
> >> > also be subscribed to gentoo-dev ML
> >> The only possible outcomes of this is that people either disobey the
> >> rule, or route all that traffic to its own directory that they
> >> effectively treat as a rubbish bin.
> >
> > I mean: they can still ignore the threads there... but they are on their
> > own if some important decision is taken there and they missed it because
> > they send all mails to their trash.
> >
> 
> They can ignore the threads on -dev now, and they're still just as on
> their own if they miss something important.
> 
> * While it is any developer's choice not to participate on the gentoo-dev and
> gentoo-project mailing lists, they nevertheless serve as main communication
> channels. If something has been discussed there, and then action has been taken,
> the council regards ignorance of the discussion not as a good  foundation for
> protests against the actions.
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20140408-summary.txt
> 
> I'd have to go back and re-read - I don't think that the Council was
> specifically asked to make gentoo-dev mandatory.  I can put that on
> the agenda, but my personal opinion is that it is unlikely to result
> in anything other than re-iterating the statement above, and leaving
> gentoo-dev non-mandatory, with the existing guidelines for using
> -dev-announce, etc.  My personal opinion is that if devs want to just
> maintain their packages in peace and follow new policies when they are
> poked about them, I don't see the harm in it.  If devs want to have a
> big say in what the policies are, then they're going to get their
> hands dirty.
> 
> Let me know if you still want this on the agenda.  I speak for the
> council only in the sense that I'm quoting the recent decision.
> 

Well, do what you prefer :)

I suggested it as I think would be more useful to know that we can rely
on gentoo-dev ML for really big and long discussions and to try to
ensure a bit more that people can at least remember that they saw some
thread that maybe would interest them... but if you, that have more
experience with this, think that it won't change much, no problem ;) 

Re: Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Pacho Ramos]

El mié, 05-11-2014 a las 13:34 +0100, Andreas K. Huettel escribió:
[...]
> That's already the case now.
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/3549
> 


Ah, ok, sorry, I didn't remember that statement :S

I agree with that and, then, I guess no more action is needed

Best regards

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Re: Call for Council Agenda Items - 11-Nov-2014

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 11:41:42 +0100
Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I was wondering about making mandatory for Gentoo developers to also
> be subscribed to gentoo-dev ML because a lot of stuff is discussed
> there and some people look to not follow threads there until they
> don't escalate to other lists or to the Council directly :/

I'm vaguely aware of some of my e-mail apparently never reaching certain
developers as it is now. I can't go into detail about who's doing what,
but the gist is that you apparently can't _make_ people read their
e-mail, or even assume it reached them, or expect them to subscribe to
certain mailing lists. Or have IRC messages not being /ignored. I could
go on.


     jer