[gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Peter Volkov]

Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?

There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki only
due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write article
about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any language
but Russian. There is no need to have this article in English since
nobody will read it.

Another reason - reality is that most of people do not know English
language. Why do you want to stop them from contributing? For quality
control - we have translator teams or there are developers who know the
language in question. Just find editors for every supported language and
let them do quality control.

[1] http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Wiki:Meetings/2011-10-17 (see
Log)


WBR,
--
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Christian Ruppert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3227 bytes --]

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:37:57 +0400
Peter Volkov <pva@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
> localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
> 
> There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki
> only due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write
> article about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any
> language but Russian. There is no need to have this article in
> English since nobody will read it.
> 

Are you sure that no non-russian will read it?

> Another reason - reality is that most of people do not know English
> language. Why do you want to stop them from contributing? For quality
> control - we have translator teams or there are developers who know
> the language in question. Just find editors for every supported
> language and let them do quality control.
> 
> [1] http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Wiki:Meetings/2011-10-17 (see
> Log)
> 
> 
> WBR,
> --
> Peter.
> 
> 

IMHO it's simple.

I think it is ok to expect that "everybody" can read and/or write
English, at least partially. :)

As a3li already mentioned in the meeting log: English is the world
language, almost everything in the Open Source world is written in
English, documentation, comments and so on.

So I guess there are *much* more people who can read/write English but
*not* Russian, French or whatever else.

I find it quite unacceptable to write documentations, "source
code"/comments and so on in French, German, ... only. You'd need
somebody who knows both languages first to translate it into English so
that "everybody" can read it.
It is much easier if we say that we need at least the initial article in
English only/first because there are much more people who may or may
not take care of it and keep it up2date.

I also think that English articles are often more up2date because of
the reason(s) mentioned above, simple example: man-pages-$LANG.

I don't know about other languages but at least for English/German it
applies. *I* even try to avoid German docs because of that and often
they're also misleading or "completely" wrong, not enough people who
review it because they can't read it...

So you *basically* need English knowledge/basics to install and use 
Gentoo/Linux, not everything is translated and mostly not even fully.
Commands, Sources, ... almost all "English". You even need (basically)
English to learn C or other programming/script languages - Why would
you want to write docs, comments or even the help messages in your
native language then?

That just sucks if there is nothing in English and you need to read
those comments and so on. It's just shitty.

We also use English for our Mailinglists, IRC, Forums, Bugzilla and so
on, why? Because everybody can read it.

Another *bad* example are translated error messages.
Do you like to get bug reports with German error logs?

To me it's the same as with the Wiki, that is *my* opinion.

-- 
Regards,
Christian Ruppert
Role: Gentoo Linux developer, Bugzilla administrator and Infrastructure
member Fingerprint: EEB1 C341 7C84 B274 6C59 F243 5EAB 0C62 B427 ABC8

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2228 bytes --]

On 10/19/11 3:31 PM, Christian Ruppert wrote:
>> Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
>> localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
>>
>> There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki
>> only due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write
>> article about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any
>> language but Russian. There is no need to have this article in
>> English since nobody will read it.

Maybe those rare cases can just use the unofficial wiki? It seems to me
that it would support that scenario.

My reasoning here is that it's better to have _something_ working for
the official wiki (and having an English version is arguably the most
important), than discuss for ages about the perfect solution.

Maybe in the future the wiki could be switched from this top-down to
some hybrid model that would allow writing standalone non-English
articles. But for starting, I think a good decision has been made.

> I think it is ok to expect that "everybody" can read and/or write
> English, at least partially. :)

Yeah.

> I don't know about other languages but at least for English/German it
> applies. *I* even try to avoid German docs because of that and often
> they're also misleading or "completely" wrong, not enough people who
> review it because they can't read it...

Yeah, and this isn't even about any specific language, I think the
critical point is the smaller pool of reviewers.

> So you *basically* need English knowledge/basics to install and use 
> Gentoo/Linux, not everything is translated and mostly not even fully.
> Commands, Sources, ... almost all "English". You even need (basically)
> English to learn C or other programming/script languages - Why would
> you want to write docs, comments or even the help messages in your
> native language then?

I think for non-technical users it can make a difference.

> We also use English for our Mailinglists, IRC, Forums, Bugzilla and so
> on, why? Because everybody can read it.

Yeah.

> Another *bad* example are translated error messages.
> Do you like to get bug reports with German error logs?

+1


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 203 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Peter Volkov]

Funny ... those who are most interested in having language-specific
pages are unable to take part in our discussion due to language
limitations ;) But still they ping me in IRC/xmpp so partially they
pushed me onto this topic.

В Срд, 19/10/2011 в 15:43 +0200, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." пишет:
> On 10/19/11 3:31 PM, Christian Ruppert wrote:
> >> Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
> >> localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
> >>
> >> There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki
> >> only due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write
> >> article about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any
> >> language but Russian. There is no need to have this article in
> >> English since nobody will read it.
> 
> Maybe those rare cases can just use the unofficial wiki? It seems to me
> that it would support that scenario.

Why?

> My reasoning here is that it's better to have _something_ working for
> the official wiki (and having an English version is arguably the most
> important), than discuss for ages about the perfect solution.

Just give this option and let language coordinators decide what's better
for their language.

> Maybe in the future the wiki could be switched from this top-down to
> some hybrid model that would allow writing standalone non-English
> articles. But for starting, I think a good decision has been made.
> 
> > I think it is ok to expect that "everybody" can read and/or write
> > English, at least partially. :)
> 
> Yeah.

Well, I don't have statistics for now and I can start poll on gentoo.ru
to get back with results, but my guess is that about 90% of Russian
community users are unable to write English documentation. Still there
are active users who share their solutions fixes/ideas.

> > I don't know about other languages but at least for English/German it
> > applies. *I* even try to avoid German docs because of that and often
> > they're also misleading or "completely" wrong, not enough people who
> > review it because they can't read it...
> 
> Yeah, and this isn't even about any specific language, I think the
> critical point is the smaller pool of reviewers.

Well, I think this depends on how "far" languages are. French English
even share lot's of word

> > So you *basically* need English knowledge/basics to install and use 
> > Gentoo/Linux, not everything is translated and mostly not even fully.
> > Commands, Sources, ... almost all "English". You even need (basically)
> > English to learn C or other programming/script languages - Why would
> > you want to write docs, comments or even the help messages in your
> > native language then?

In physics we have a joke that reflects reality very well: in theory
there is not difference between theory and experiment while on practice
it is.

Last week my co-worker installed Gentoo based on "misleading and
partially wrong" but still Russian only documents. He is practically
unable to read English well but uses Ubuntu for many years and now I've
forced him to use Gentoo (Yay! :) ) Also he programs php and yet there
are lots of technical books in Russian.

> I think for non-technical users it can make a difference.

I think vice versa. In technical literature the number of words is very
limited so it's possible to learn some basic words and be able
understand a "general" idea of the document. Code examples or listings
helps here very much. But this "understanding" is not the same as
writing English. Reading != writing.

> > We also use English for our Mailinglists, IRC, Forums, Bugzilla and so
> > on, why? Because everybody can read it.
> 
> Yeah.

Bad example since there are Russian mailing lists, IRC, forums and users
requested me many times to create Russian bugzilla :)

> > Another *bad* example are translated error messages.
> > Do you like to get bug reports with German error logs?
> 
> +1

np here. If error message is unreadable I just request additional
information.


That said I see that you already set on this. Well... Let's see how it
goes in real life but it'll be great if there will be no such
requirement "hardcoded". It'll be cool if you provide mechanism to allow
easy extension for language specific pages in future.

--
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3909 bytes --]

On 10/19/11 9:34 PM, Peter Volkov wrote:
> Funny ... those who are most interested in having language-specific
> pages are unable to take part in our discussion due to language
> limitations ;) But still they ping me in IRC/xmpp so partially they
> pushed me onto this topic.
> 
> В Срд, 19/10/2011 в 15:43 +0200, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." пишет:
>> On 10/19/11 3:31 PM, Christian Ruppert wrote:
>>>> Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
>>>> localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
>>>>
>>>> There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki
>>>> only due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write
>>>> article about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any
>>>> language but Russian. There is no need to have this article in
>>>> English since nobody will read it.
>>
>> Maybe those rare cases can just use the unofficial wiki? It seems to me
>> that it would support that scenario.
> 
> Why?

Why I think the unofficial wiki would support the scenario? I don't
know, this was just a guess, but I think someone wrote in the thread
that it would.

Why do I think people who want to write say Russian-only articles should
use the unofficial wiki?

1. Because they can, and it works, and official wiki at least initially
wouldn't.

2. Then you have something, and you can move this over to official wiki
later when it supports it. It's easier to convince people to start
supporting this when you have an existing high quality set of articles.

> Well, I don't have statistics for now and I can start poll on gentoo.ru
> to get back with results, but my guess is that about 90% of Russian
> community users are unable to write English documentation. Still there
> are active users who share their solutions fixes/ideas.

That's good,

> Last week my co-worker installed Gentoo based on "misleading and
> partially wrong" but still Russian only documents. He is practically
> unable to read English well but uses Ubuntu for many years and now I've
> forced him to use Gentoo (Yay! :) ) Also he programs php and yet there
> are lots of technical books in Russian.

Why don't we have an official Russian translation of the Handbook then?
IMHO it's even more important than having Russian-only articles on
not-yet-existing official wiki.

>> I think for non-technical users it can make a difference.
> 
> I think vice versa. In technical literature the number of words is very
> limited so it's possible to learn some basic words and be able
> understand a "general" idea of the document. Code examples or listings
> helps here very much. But this "understanding" is not the same as
> writing English. Reading != writing.

Right, good point.

>>> We also use English for our Mailinglists, IRC, Forums, Bugzilla and so
>>> on, why? Because everybody can read it.
>>
>> Yeah.
> 
> Bad example since there are Russian mailing lists, IRC, forums and users
> requested me many times to create Russian bugzilla :)

Nobody prevents anyone from creating an unofficial one, but I'm not
going to fix bugs reported to it. ;-)

>>> Another *bad* example are translated error messages.
>>> Do you like to get bug reports with German error logs?
>>
>> +1
> 
> np here. If error message is unreadable I just request additional
> information.

That introduces some delays, and sometimes reporters fail to post the
requested info. It's generally much easier if you get the right thing
from the start.

> That said I see that you already set on this. Well... Let's see how it
> goes in real life but it'll be great if there will be no such
> requirement "hardcoded". It'll be cool if you provide mechanism to allow
> easy extension for language specific pages in future.

My understanding is that it could possibly be changed in the future.


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 203 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Peter Volkov]

В Срд, 26/10/2011 в 09:28 +0200, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." пишет:
> > Last week my co-worker installed Gentoo based on "misleading and
> > partially wrong" but still Russian only documents. He is practically
> > unable to read English well but uses Ubuntu for many years and now I've
> > forced him to use Gentoo (Yay! :) ) Also he programs php and yet there
> > are lots of technical books in Russian.
> 
> Why don't we have an official Russian translation of the Handbook then?
> IMHO it's even more important than having Russian-only articles on
> not-yet-existing official wiki.

Oh, I think because writing in Russian from scratch is easier then
translating handbook :) Another problem is that guidexml/CVS are not
convenient to support translations. Probably  Azamat's efforts with
transifex.gentoo.ru will help us but ... we'll see.

> >>> Another *bad* example are translated error messages.
> >>> Do you like to get bug reports with German error logs?
> >>
> >> +1
> > 
> > np here. If error message is unreadable I just request additional
> > information.
> 
> That introduces some delays, and sometimes reporters fail to post the
> requested info. It's generally much easier if you get the right thing
> from the start.

Well, I think once we switch into English we'll get bug reports with
users who were unable to translate and understand "disk is full" or
similar messages in the log )

--
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Matt Turner]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:28 AM, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr."
<phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 10/19/11 9:34 PM, Peter Volkov wrote:
>> Last week my co-worker installed Gentoo based on "misleading and
>> partially wrong" but still Russian only documents. He is practically
>> unable to read English well but uses Ubuntu for many years and now I've
>> forced him to use Gentoo (Yay! :) ) Also he programs php and yet there
>> are lots of technical books in Russian.
>
> Why don't we have an official Russian translation of the Handbook then?
> IMHO it's even more important than having Russian-only articles on
> not-yet-existing official wiki.

I think that's very good evidence in support of what Peter is saying.
Evidently many Russians are perfectly capable of writing good
technical documentation in Russian, but don't know English well enough
to translate English documents into Russian, which is exactly why he's
saying the English-first top-down approach wouldn't be good for
Russian.

Matt

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Maciej Mrozowski]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 969 bytes --]

On Wednesday 19 of October 2011 14:37:57 Peter Volkov wrote:
> Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
> localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
> 
> There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki only
> due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write article
> about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any language
> but Russian. There is no need to have this article in English since
> nobody will read it.

You mean he will be assassinated before he finishes reading so that Russian 
secret is kept? ;)

Actually, I don't see the point in having Gentoo Wiki pages in other languages 
but English at all. Why? Quality of those will vary greatly.
I think such localized versions should be permitted only if they are 'literal' 
translation of English version and if we keep all language versions in sync, 
but we cannot really ensure this.
-- 
regards
MM

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[David Valentim Dias]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1555 bytes --]

I see many users who loved gentoo docs switching to archlinux wiki because
of their standards.
Why we can't follow a already good model and just adjust to our needs
instead of creating and polishing a new?
Start with everything in English but permit i18n work.

The quality problem is a community problem. User can even rewrite a bad
page. If many pages are poor in content our community is full of
retards/trolls.

2011/10/19 Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com>

> On Wednesday 19 of October 2011 14:37:57 Peter Volkov wrote:
> > Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down
> > localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
> >
> > There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki only
> > due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write article
> > about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in any language
> > but Russian. There is no need to have this article in English since
> > nobody will read it.
>
> You mean he will be assassinated before he finishes reading so that Russian
> secret is kept? ;)
>
> Actually, I don't see the point in having Gentoo Wiki pages in other
> languages
> but English at all. Why? Quality of those will vary greatly.
> I think such localized versions should be permitted only if they are
> 'literal'
> translation of English version and if we keep all language versions in
> sync,
> but we cannot really ensure this.
> --
> regards
> MM
>



-- 
Currículo: http://lattes.cnpq.br/7541377569511492

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2049 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Christian Ruppert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1877 bytes --]

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:24:57 -0200
David Valentim Dias <dvdscripter@gmail.com> wrote:

> I see many users who loved gentoo docs switching to archlinux wiki
> because of their standards.
> Why we can't follow a already good model and just adjust to our needs
> instead of creating and polishing a new?
> Start with everything in English but permit i18n work.
> 

That's what we do.

> The quality problem is a community problem. User can even rewrite a
> bad page. If many pages are poor in content our community is full of
> retards/trolls.
> 
> 2011/10/19 Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com>
> 
> > On Wednesday 19 of October 2011 14:37:57 Peter Volkov wrote:
> > > Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider
> > > top-down localization approach decided on last meeting[1]?
> > >
> > > There are language specific things that will be be kept out of
> > > wiki only due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason
> > > to write article about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in
> > > Gentoo in any language but Russian. There is no need to have this
> > > article in English since nobody will read it.
> >
> > You mean he will be assassinated before he finishes reading so that
> > Russian secret is kept? ;)
> >
> > Actually, I don't see the point in having Gentoo Wiki pages in other
> > languages
> > but English at all. Why? Quality of those will vary greatly.
> > I think such localized versions should be permitted only if they are
> > 'literal'
> > translation of English version and if we keep all language versions
> > in sync,
> > but we cannot really ensure this.
> > --
> > regards
> > MM
> >
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Regards,
Christian Ruppert
Role: Gentoo Linux developer, Bugzilla administrator and Infrastructure
member Fingerprint: EEB1 C341 7C84 B274 6C59 F243 5EAB 0C62 B427 ABC8

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, I don't see the point in having Gentoo Wiki pages in other languages
> but English at all. Why? Quality of those will vary greatly.
> I think such localized versions should be permitted only if they are 'literal'
> translation of English version and if we keep all language versions in sync,
> but we cannot really ensure this.

Well, it is certainly possible to do, but whether we want to do it is
something else.

If this is to be an "official" wiki then pages should have maintainers
to keep an eye on them, much as packages do.  That doesn't mean
closing off public access - just have somebody keeping an eye on
things.  I'm fine with that even being a non-dev role, but it should
be somebody who actually is active.

If that model exists I see no reason we can't do it with other
languages - just ensure all pages have a maintainer, and charge them
with keeping the pages equivalent to the English page (within reason).
 You can always audit things and rely on complaints to determine how
things are going.

If a maintainer drops the ball you handle it the same way a s a
package - maintainer-needed and pruning.

I think we need to do most of this stuff even if we're English-only -
I think the only difference with adding other languages is that it
isn't as obvious to everybody if some page is full of obscenities or
whatever...

Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach

[David Valentim Dias]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1925 bytes --]

We don't need all features in first "release", users just want something
usable aka "oh a page full of info about my problem/interest".

2011/10/19 Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>

> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Actually, I don't see the point in having Gentoo Wiki pages in other
> languages
> > but English at all. Why? Quality of those will vary greatly.
> > I think such localized versions should be permitted only if they are
> 'literal'
> > translation of English version and if we keep all language versions in
> sync,
> > but we cannot really ensure this.
>
> Well, it is certainly possible to do, but whether we want to do it is
> something else.
>
> If this is to be an "official" wiki then pages should have maintainers
> to keep an eye on them, much as packages do.  That doesn't mean
> closing off public access - just have somebody keeping an eye on
> things.  I'm fine with that even being a non-dev role, but it should
> be somebody who actually is active.
>

We lack people even for devel, doc need a really good knowledge about that
topic. Wiki page maintainer needed seems fail to me.


>
> If that model exists I see no reason we can't do it with other
> languages - just ensure all pages have a maintainer, and charge them
> with keeping the pages equivalent to the English page (within reason).
>  You can always audit things and rely on complaints to determine how
>  things are going.


> If a maintainer drops the ball you handle it the same way a s a
> package - maintainer-needed and pruning.
>
> I think we need to do most of this stuff even if we're English-only -
> I think the only difference with adding other languages is that it
> isn't as obvious to everybody if some page is full of obscenities or
> whatever...
>
> Rich
>
>


-- 
Currículo: http://lattes.cnpq.br/7541377569511492

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2726 bytes --]