From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1RGbw9-0000KI-II for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:36:25 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2460621C09C; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:36:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDEE21C098 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:36:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.35] (unknown [94.158.169.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: pva) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63BC91B4001 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:36:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] wiki: bad top-down localization approach From: Peter Volkov To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org In-Reply-To: <4E9ED3EF.7030007@gentoo.org> References: <1319027877.9205.75.camel@tablet> <20111019153118.5e6ea65a@odin.qasl.de> <4E9ED3EF.7030007@gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:34:06 +0400 Message-ID: <1319052846.9205.119.camel@tablet> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: X-Archives-Hash: 3224a0f989ff012ab88852896d68a216 Funny ... those who are most interested in having language-specific pages are unable to take part in our discussion due to language limitations ;) But still they ping me in IRC/xmpp so partially they pushed me onto this topic. =D0=92 =D0=A1=D1=80=D0=B4, 19/10/2011 =D0=B2 15:43 +0200, "Pawe=C5=82 Haj= dan, Jr." =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=82: > On 10/19/11 3:31 PM, Christian Ruppert wrote: > >> Hello. While it is not tool late, could you guys reconsider top-down > >> localization approach decided on last meeting[1]? > >> > >> There are language specific things that will be be kept out of wiki > >> only due to this policy. For example I don't see any reason to write > >> article about use of Russian cryptography algorithms in Gentoo in an= y > >> language but Russian. There is no need to have this article in > >> English since nobody will read it. >=20 > Maybe those rare cases can just use the unofficial wiki? It seems to me > that it would support that scenario. Why? > My reasoning here is that it's better to have _something_ working for > the official wiki (and having an English version is arguably the most > important), than discuss for ages about the perfect solution. Just give this option and let language coordinators decide what's better for their language. > Maybe in the future the wiki could be switched from this top-down to > some hybrid model that would allow writing standalone non-English > articles. But for starting, I think a good decision has been made. >=20 > > I think it is ok to expect that "everybody" can read and/or write > > English, at least partially. :) >=20 > Yeah. Well, I don't have statistics for now and I can start poll on gentoo.ru to get back with results, but my guess is that about 90% of Russian community users are unable to write English documentation. Still there are active users who share their solutions fixes/ideas. > > I don't know about other languages but at least for English/German it > > applies. *I* even try to avoid German docs because of that and often > > they're also misleading or "completely" wrong, not enough people who > > review it because they can't read it... >=20 > Yeah, and this isn't even about any specific language, I think the > critical point is the smaller pool of reviewers. Well, I think this depends on how "far" languages are. French English even share lot's of word > > So you *basically* need English knowledge/basics to install and use=20 > > Gentoo/Linux, not everything is translated and mostly not even fully. > > Commands, Sources, ... almost all "English". You even need (basically= ) > > English to learn C or other programming/script languages - Why would > > you want to write docs, comments or even the help messages in your > > native language then? In physics we have a joke that reflects reality very well: in theory there is not difference between theory and experiment while on practice it is. Last week my co-worker installed Gentoo based on "misleading and partially wrong" but still Russian only documents. He is practically unable to read English well but uses Ubuntu for many years and now I've forced him to use Gentoo (Yay! :) ) Also he programs php and yet there are lots of technical books in Russian. > I think for non-technical users it can make a difference. I think vice versa. In technical literature the number of words is very limited so it's possible to learn some basic words and be able understand a "general" idea of the document. Code examples or listings helps here very much. But this "understanding" is not the same as writing English. Reading !=3D writing. > > We also use English for our Mailinglists, IRC, Forums, Bugzilla and s= o > > on, why? Because everybody can read it. >=20 > Yeah. Bad example since there are Russian mailing lists, IRC, forums and users requested me many times to create Russian bugzilla :) > > Another *bad* example are translated error messages. > > Do you like to get bug reports with German error logs? >=20 > +1 np here. If error message is unreadable I just request additional information. That said I see that you already set on this. Well... Let's see how it goes in real life but it'll be great if there will be no such requirement "hardcoded". It'll be cool if you provide mechanism to allow easy extension for language specific pages in future. -- Peter.