From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADDA11382C5 for ; Sat, 22 May 2021 11:58:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65CC3E0822; Sat, 22 May 2021 11:58:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (woodpecker.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3668E081B for ; Sat, 22 May 2021 11:58:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Sam James Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C0C59D53-7803-4431-8C0D-7F695423B459" Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Subject: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary Message-Id: <12C07334-EBD2-4132-BCAE-B72D000B2AFD@gentoo.org> Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 12:57:58 +0100 To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) X-Archives-Salt: eea80bfa-4d01-47df-9c90-f565ca6bb531 X-Archives-Hash: dc11efe2affb81c3dacd74e4f1ecf8b9 --Apple-Mail=_C0C59D53-7803-4431-8C0D-7F695423B459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should = discuss this on -project too. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Sam James > Subject: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > Cc: council@gentoo.org >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly = that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I = think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC = presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited. >=20 > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief = of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- = I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust = the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera. >=20 > Reasons for migration to Libera: > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no = relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than = the domain name > and some sponsored servers. > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as = was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own = infrastructure.) >=20 > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera. >=20 > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means = #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions. >=20 > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC = administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of = the > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are = working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new = cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements. >=20 > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on = Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody = available to speak to. >=20 > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC = operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to = Rizon and other controversial > IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled = individuals, they haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of = working at Freenode given they=E2=80=99re > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*. >=20 > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody = competent able to handle them on a network level.) >=20 > Reasons against delay: > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we=E2=80=99re = already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on = freenode to access Gentoo channels. > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of = support activity we're used to. > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is = quiet as are other project channels as the cost of =E2=80=9Ckeeping = up=E2=80=9D with activity > increases. > 4) We=E2=80=99re not the only project to be moving. We=E2=80=99re far = from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, = in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we=E2=80=99re in very = good company. We=E2=80=99re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start. > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's = a vacuum left by the lack of administration. >=20 > Reasons against OFTC *for now*: > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it=E2=80=99= s _possible_ this can change in future) >=20 > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack = of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ. > This is the general opinion in the =E2=80=9CIRC community=E2=80=9D = too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take = time. >=20 > ---- >=20 > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long = before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I=E2=80=99d = love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and = I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves = accept that they=E2=80=99re not the continuity candidate in terms of = migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much). >=20 > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to = move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really = encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping = for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the = rest of our fabulous groupcontacts. >=20 > I=E2=80=99d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss = and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later = tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May). > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Georgy Yakovlev > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST > To: Sam James > Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org >=20 > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote: > ... snip >=20 > I support holding emergency metting/vote. >=20 > For others reading the thread. > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's = about whenever we should > move in current situation. >=20 > --=20 > Best regards, > Georgy > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: "Andreas K. Huettel" > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST > To: Sam James , gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > Cc: council@gentoo.org, David Seifert >=20 >>> Reasons for migration to Libera: >>> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no >>> relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other >>> than the domain name >>> and some sponsored servers. >>> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, = as >>> was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own >>> infrastructure.) >>=20 >> I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera. >=20 > I also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera. >=20 > Also, WTF? = https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611 > It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as fast as = possible. >=20 > --=20 > Andreas K. H=C3=BCttel > dilfridge@gentoo.org > Gentoo Linux developer=20 > (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice) > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org >=20 > On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode wrote: >> On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote: >>> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote: >>> ... snip >>>=20 >>> I support holding emergency metting/vote. >>>=20 >>> For others reading the thread. >>> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's = about whenever we should >>> move in current situation. >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Best regards, >>> Georgy >>=20 >> I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote. >>=20 >=20 > I, too, would like an emergency meeting for a decision to be made. >=20 > Further, as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the > back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally support >=20 > a) for Gentoo to generally move away from freenode (we can maintain > *some* presence there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of > trust in it in the community at large. >=20 > b) for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff > relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already gone in = to > setting up our presence there (channel registration, cloaks); as well = as > the considerable number of users that have already moved in that = direction. >=20 > Cheers > --=20 > Sam Jorna (wraeth) > GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: David Seifert > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST > To: Sam James , gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org > Cc: council@gentoo.org >=20 > On Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly = that delay >> is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I think it's >> hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC >> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited. >>=20 >> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general = belief >> of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC >> -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I >> trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera. >>=20 >> Reasons for migration to Libera: >> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no >> relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other >> than the domain name >> and some sponsored servers. >> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, = as >> was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own >> infrastructure.) >=20 > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera. >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Joonas Niilola > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org >=20 > On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James wrote: >>=20 >> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on = Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new >> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody = available to speak to. >=20 > I don't think you're being fair with this. Of course it's empty = because > the previous people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode = staff > are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to talk to > even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty currently. >=20 > (That being said the admins who left to Libera are the people we've > worked together for years) >=20 >>=20 >> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC = operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to = Rizon and other controversial >> IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled = individuals, they haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of = working at Freenode given they=E2=80=99re >> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*. >=20 > Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while the old = ones > leave. Still seems to work. >=20 > Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with both ways. >=20 > -- juippis >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Matthew Thode > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST > To: Georgy Yakovlev > Cc: Sam James , gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, = council@gentoo.org >=20 > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote: >> On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote: >> ... snip >>=20 >> I support holding emergency metting/vote. >>=20 >> For others reading the thread. >> Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's = about whenever we should >> move in current situation. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Best regards, >> Georgy >=20 > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote. >=20 > --=20 > Matthew Thode (prometheanfire) > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Sergei Trofimovich > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST > To: Sam James > Cc: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org >=20 > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly = that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I = think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC = presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited. >=20 > Minor personal note: for some people (and projects) it's not just > switching IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely. > I personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will > stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for discussions. >=20 > We will impact the community with any choice we do (or don't do) = today. >=20 >> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general = belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in = IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I = trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera. >>=20 >> Reasons for migration to Libera: >> 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no = relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than = the domain name >> and some sponsored servers. >> (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, = as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own = infrastructure.) >>=20 >> 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera. >>=20 >> For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means = #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions. >>=20 >> 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC = administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of = the >> actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are = working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand >> what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new = cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements. >>=20 >> 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on = Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new >> developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody = available to speak to. >>=20 >> 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC = operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to = Rizon and other controversial >> IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled = individuals, they haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of = working at Freenode given they=E2=80=99re >> not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*. >>=20 >> (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with = nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.) >>=20 >> Reasons against delay: >> 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we=E2=80=99re = already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on = freenode to access Gentoo channels. >> 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of = support activity we're used to. >> 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is = quiet as are other project channels as the cost of =E2=80=9Ckeeping = up=E2=80=9D with activity >> increases. >> 4) We=E2=80=99re not the only project to be moving. We=E2=80=99re far = from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, = in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we=E2=80=99re in very = good company. We=E2=80=99re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start. >> 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's = a vacuum left by the lack of administration. >>=20 >> Reasons against OFTC *for now*: >> 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it=E2=80= =99s _possible_ this can change in future) >>=20 >> 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes = lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ. >> This is the general opinion in the =E2=80=9CIRC community=E2=80=9D = too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take = time. >=20 > Minor personal note: >=20 > For OFTC I'm using > https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/ > for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera: > https://libera.chat/guides/certfp >=20 > I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the irssi > config that freenode requires: > https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi >=20 > But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the difference. >=20 >> ---- >>=20 >> Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long = before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I=E2=80=99d = love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and = I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves = accept that they=E2=80=99re not the continuity candidate in terms of = migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much). >>=20 >> All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides = to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really = encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping = for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the = rest of our fabulous groupcontacts. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss = and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later = tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May). >=20 > Thank you for listing the options explicitly! >=20 > I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting tomorrow. > Don't know about the others. >=20 > I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in -project > would be beneficial to at least have our options listed as wider > community sees it. >=20 > Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's requirements > for official presence in communication platforms to consider them > official (and/or primary). That would ease reasoning about why exactly > Freenode does not suit us today and would simplify building a list > of available choices. >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Sergei >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Luca Barbato > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary > Date: 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST > To: gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org >=20 > On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly = that >> delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home. I think >> it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC >> presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited. >>=20 >> I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general >> belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots >> in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, >> and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding >> Libera. >=20 > Most irc clients make staying on both networks simple, given that all > the hard work (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done = timely > we could just stay in both for the time being. >=20 > Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat yet ? >=20 > lu >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_C0C59D53-7803-4431-8C0D-7F695423B459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should = discuss this on -project too.

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
Subject: = [gentoo-core] = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST
To: = gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
Cc: = council@gentoo.org

Hi,

I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but = I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's = future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have = a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely = inhabited.

I'm partly asking fellow = developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts = team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the = goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the = ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.

Reasons= for migration to Libera:
1) Libera is the continuity = choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous = freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
and= some sponsored servers.
(Libera is already building up = sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another = thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)

2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at = Libera.

For example, they immediately = reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile = takeovers while we make decisions.

3) The = vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or = indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We = are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to = setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.

4) Compare this with the current state of = #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we = wanted to add/remove a new
developer, or handle any other = issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.

5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new = IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to = Rizon and other controversial
IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s = clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven=E2=80=99t = been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given = they=E2=80=99re
not in any of the usual mediums we use to = handle *projects*.

(The two previous points = are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle = them on a network level.)

Reasons against = delay:
1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users = and so we=E2=80=99re already introducing a cost for people who want to = continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
2) = #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support = activity we're used to.
3) Inter-developer communication = is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as = the cost of =E2=80=9Ckeeping up=E2=80=9D with activity
increases.
4) We=E2=80=99re not the only = project to be moving. We=E2=80=99re far from being the first large FOSS = project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the = wrong decision, we=E2=80=99re in very good company. We=E2=80=99re joined = by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
5) Large swathes of = spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the = lack of administration.

Reasons against = OFTC *for now*:
1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but = dwfreed has indicated it=E2=80=99s _possible_ this can change in = future)

2) Outdated/unconventional services = and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing = features in e.g. ChanServ.
This is the general opinion in = the =E2=80=9CIRC community=E2=80=9D too. Note that OFTC staff are trying = to improve this but it will take time.

----

Personally, I admire that = OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode = drama, and in the long run, I=E2=80=99d love to actually have Gentoo = there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a = softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they=E2=80=99re = not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right = now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).

All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community = decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd = really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm = hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work = with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.

I=E2=80=99d like to request an emergency council meeting to = discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally = be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
Begin forwarded message:

From: = Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
Subject: = [gentoo-core] Re: = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST
To: = Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
Cc: = gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org

On 22.05.2021 = 02:24, Sam James wrote:
... snip

I support holding emergency metting/vote.

For others reading the thread.
Remember, this = is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we = should
move in current situation.

--
Best regards,
Georgy
Begin forwarded message:

From: = "Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@gentoo.org>
Subject: = Re: [gentoo-core] = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST
To: = Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
Cc: = council@gentoo.org, = David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>

Reasons for migration to = Libera:
1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has = no
relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 = years other
than the domain name
and some = sponsored servers.
(Libera is already building up = sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
was alluded to on = another thread, purely cloud/their own
infrastructure.)

I strongly support an emergency = meeting and moving to Libera.

I = also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.

Also, WTF? https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611
It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as = fast as possible.

--
Andreas = K. H=C3=BCttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer =
(council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, = libreoffice)
Begin forwarded = message:

From: = "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" <wraeth@gentoo.org>
Subject: = Re: [gentoo-core] = Re: Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST
To: = gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode = wrote:
On 21-05-21 = 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
... = snip

I support holding emergency = metting/vote.

For others reading the = thread.
Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode = vs libera), it's about whenever we should
move in current = situation.

--
Best = regards,
Georgy

I = also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.


I, too, would like an emergency = meeting for a decision to be made.

Further, = as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the
back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally = support

 a) for Gentoo to generally = move away from freenode (we can maintain
*some* presence = there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of
trust = in it in the community at large.

 b) = for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff
relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already = gone in to
setting up our presence there (channel = registration, cloaks); as well as
the considerable number = of users that have already moved in that direction.

Cheers
--
Sam Jorna (wraeth)
GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26

Begin forwarded message:

From: = David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org>
Subject: = Re: [gentoo-core] = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST
To: = Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
Cc: = council@gentoo.org

On = Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote:
Hi,

I=E2=80=99m = going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay
is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I = think it's
hurting our community given we have a = particularly strong IRC
presence, which has recently = become sparsely inhabited.

I'm partly = asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief
of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong = roots in IRC
-- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the = scenes recently, and I
trust the calls made by the = ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.

Reasons= for migration to Libera:
1) Libera is the continuity = choice. irc.freenode.net has no
relationship with = the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
than the = domain name
and some sponsored servers.
(Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it = is not, as
was alluded to on another thread, purely = cloud/their own
infrastructure.)

I strongly support an emergency = meeting and moving to Libera.


Begin forwarded message:

From: = Joonas Niilola <juippis@gentoo.org>
Subject: = Re: [gentoo-core] = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST
To: = gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James = wrote:

4) Compare this with the current state of = #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we = wanted to add/remove a new
developer, or handle any other = issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.

I don't think you're being fair = with this. Of course it's empty because
the previous = people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode staff
are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to = talk to
even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty = currently.

(That being said the admins who = left to Libera are the people we've
worked together for = years)


5) Freenode is currently experiencing high = turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious = connections to Rizon and other controversial
IRC networks. = It=E2=80=99s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they = haven=E2=80=99t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode = given they=E2=80=99re
not in any of the usual mediums we = use to handle *projects*.

Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while = the old ones
leave. Still seems to work.

Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with = both ways.

-- juippis

Begin forwarded message:

From: = Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@gentoo.org>
Subject: = Re: [gentoo-core] = Re: Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST
To: = Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@gentoo.org>
Cc: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>, gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org

On 21-05-21 = 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
... = snip

I support holding emergency = metting/vote.

For others reading the = thread.
Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode = vs libera), it's about whenever we should
move in current = situation.

--
Best = regards,
Georgy

I = also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.

--
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
Begin forwarded message:

From: = Sergei Trofimovich <slyfox@gentoo.org>
Subject: = [gentoo-core] Re: = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST
To: = Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
Cc: = gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org, council@gentoo.org

On = Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote:
Hi,

I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite = strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC = home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a = particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely = inhabited.

Minor personal = note: for some people (and projects) it's not just
switching= IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely.
I = personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will
stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for = discussions.

We will impact the community = with any choice we do (or don't do) today.

I'm partly asking fellow = developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts = team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the = goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the = ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.

Reasons= for migration to Libera:
1) Libera is the continuity = choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous = freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
and= some sponsored servers.
(Libera is already building up = sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another = thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)

2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at = Libera.

For example, they immediately = reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile = takeovers while we make decisions.

3) The = vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or = indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We = are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to = setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.

4) Compare this with the current state of = #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we = wanted to add/remove a new
developer, or handle any other = issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.

5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new = IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to = Rizon and other controversial
IRC networks. It=E2=80=99s = clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven=E2=80=99t = been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given = they=E2=80=99re
not in any of the usual mediums we use to = handle *projects*.

(The two previous points = are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle = them on a network level.)

Reasons against = delay:
1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users = and so we=E2=80=99re already introducing a cost for people who want to = continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
2) = #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support = activity we're used to.
3) Inter-developer communication = is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as = the cost of =E2=80=9Ckeeping up=E2=80=9D with activity
increases.
4) We=E2=80=99re not the only = project to be moving. We=E2=80=99re far from being the first large FOSS = project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the = wrong decision, we=E2=80=99re in very good company. We=E2=80=99re joined = by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
5) Large swathes of = spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the = lack of administration.

Reasons against = OFTC *for now*:
1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but = dwfreed has indicated it=E2=80=99s _possible_ this can change in = future)

2) Outdated/unconventional services = and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing = features in e.g. ChanServ.
This is the general opinion in = the =E2=80=9CIRC community=E2=80=9D too. Note that OFTC staff are trying = to improve this but it will take time.

Minor personal note:

For OFTC = I'm using
   https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/<= br class=3D"">for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera:
   https://libera.chat/guides/certfp

I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the = irssi
config that freenode requires:
=    https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi

But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the = difference.

----

Personally, I admire that = OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode = drama, and in the long run, I=E2=80=99d love to actually have Gentoo = there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a = softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they=E2=80=99re = not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right = now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).

All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community = decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd = really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm = hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work = with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.

I=E2=80=99d like to request an emergency council meeting to = discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally = be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).

Thank you for listing the options explicitly!
I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting = tomorrow.
Don't know about the others.

I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in = -project
would be beneficial to at least have our options = listed as wider
community sees it.

Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's = requirements
for official presence in communication = platforms to consider them
official (and/or primary). That = would ease reasoning about why exactly
Freenode does not = suit us today and would simplify building a list
of = available choices.

--

 Sergei

Begin forwarded message:

From: = Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org>
Subject: = Re: [gentoo-core] = Libera migration summary
Date: = 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST
To: = gentoo-core@lists.gentoo.org
On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James = wrote:
Hi,

I=E2=80=99m going to try keep this brief, but = I feel quite strongly that
delay is problematic wrt = choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think
it's = hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.

I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust = me and the general
belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. = I personally have strong roots
in IRC -- I've seen some of = the goings-on behind the scenes recently,
and I trust the = calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding
Libera.

Most irc clients make staying on = both networks simple, given that all
the hard work = (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done timely
we= could just stay in both for the time being.

Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat = yet ?

lu



= --Apple-Mail=_C0C59D53-7803-4431-8C0D-7F695423B459--