From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JHT17-0005E5-HN for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:58:57 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA1BBE07BB; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:58:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from heisenberg.zen.co.uk (heisenberg.zen.co.uk [212.23.3.141]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853B4E07BB for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:58:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [62.3.120.141] (helo=spike) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JHT15-0006Np-T6 for gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:58:56 +0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:58:41 +0000 From: Roy Bamford Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Plan, then communicate To: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org In-Reply-To: <20080122211808.GA21906@redwoodscientific.com> (from jl.050877@gmail.com on Tue Jan 22 21:18:08 2008) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.3.22 Message-Id: <1201046334l.2735l.2l@spike> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Project discussion list X-BeenThere: gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [62.3.120.141] X-Archives-Salt: 7638b5e9-0209-4215-ad52-e731d564a079 X-Archives-Hash: ebddd5a9950fc6e600d2bb9f45a08f44 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2008.01.22 21:18, John Lawles wrote: > Alec, >=20 > On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 07:32:55PM -0800, Alec Warner wrote: > > I could sit in #gentoo and field questions all day (I've done it > > before) but I have things I could spend my time on that are more > > worthwhile to the project .... >=20 > To find the big-payoff items, I suggest first doing triage on the > threads: >=20 > (1) Ignore, at least temporarily, noob-does-something-stupid > threads. >=20 > (2) Ignore threads about unstable packages because unstable > packages are supposed to have problems. >=20 > What is left are (3) normal users having problems with stable > parts of Gentoo. Then ask: what architectural changes to Gentoo > would have eliminated that problem, or better yet, that general > type of problem? >=20 [snip] > Regards, >=20 > John >=20 > --=20 > gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mailing list >=20 John, There is a third class of problem - experienced user does something for=20 the first time and makes an error. There is a lot of that I do pretty much what you suggest in my forums post. Users making a=20 mistake, I try to show them where and what they did wrong without=20 telling them the answer. The give a man a fish or teach him to fish=20 idea. When there is a regular issue, I write a NeddySeagoons' Guide on the=20 forums that I can link to. It makes it easier for me and provides a=20 tested path for others to follow. There are only about 7 or 8. I can't=20 think of any that were Gentoo specific. Google Neddyseagoons +Guide=20 site:forums.gentoo.org to find them. I would say that the biggest issue is that Gentoo users actually build=20 their own distro, using the tools that gentoo provides. There is no=20 such thing as the Gentoo distro. Every install is different. Users=20 therefore go though all the pain that binary distro builders go=20 through, that binary distro users never see. Its this incremental distro update that causes problems from time to=20 time. In general gentoo packages what ${UPSTREAM} provides. When that=20 gets changed in incompatible ways, modular Xorg, libexpat ... its=20 necessary to rip out the old put in the new and then pick up the=20 pieces. That's never going to go away - its the price of being a source=20 based distro. Gentoo can (and does) provide the tools to ease the pain as much as=20 possible. Can the tools be improved to make things easier ? Of course thay can, and I've seen the way portage and gentoolkit has=20 improved over the years. Can the tools eliminate issues like libexpat - no. Whenever you have to=20 take a jigsaw apart to put it together differently to fit in a piece=20 you just found there is risk. - --=20 Regards, Roy Bamford (NeddySeagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods treecleaners -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHloM+TE4/y7nJvasRAukOAKC0CyYZRqS0wcksvrilosI0Yv9lIACgrk54 pg3m0YqMfqyrNntSAsnothQ=3D =3DY76D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- gentoo-project@lists.gentoo.org mailing list