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* [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
@ 2009-05-28 23:36 René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-05-29  0:11 ` Ferris McCormick
  2009-05-29  8:07 ` Patrick Börjesson
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: René 'Necoro' Neumann @ 2009-05-28 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

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Hi,

(The following is done with portage-2.2_rc33)

I created some small test-packages for the following usecase:

Package "spam" rdepends on "=eggs-2".
Package "bacon" rdepends on "=eggs-1".

So in theory there should be no way of installing them together (given
that eggs is not slotted). This works if I try to install them in one go.

!!! Multiple package instances within a single package slot have been pulled
!!! into the dependency graph, resulting in a slot conflict:

app-test/eggs:0

  ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/eggs-2', 'merge') pulled in by
    =app-test/eggs-2 required by ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/spam-1', 'merge')

  ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/eggs-1', 'merge') pulled in by
    =app-test/eggs-1 required by ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/bacon-1',
'merge')


It looks different, if spam is installed and I try to install bacon
additionally:

# emerge -1av bacon

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies                ... done!
[ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
[ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]


This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
spam and thus spam becomes unusable.

Regards,
René

P.S.: In case it matters: You can find the repository containing the
trivial ebuilds here: https://code.launchpad.net/~necoro/+junk/test_repo
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-28 23:36 [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS René 'Necoro' Neumann
@ 2009-05-29  0:11 ` Ferris McCormick
  2009-05-29  9:30   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-05-29  8:07 ` Patrick Börjesson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Ferris McCormick @ 2009-05-29  0:11 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

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Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 29 May 2009 01:36:20 +0200
René 'Necoro' Neumann <lists@necoro.eu> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi,
> 
> (The following is done with portage-2.2_rc33)
> 
> I created some small test-packages for the following usecase:
> 
> Package "spam" rdepends on "=eggs-2".
> Package "bacon" rdepends on "=eggs-1".
> 
> So in theory there should be no way of installing them together (given
> that eggs is not slotted). This works if I try to install them in one go.
> 
> !!! Multiple package instances within a single package slot have been pulled
> !!! into the dependency graph, resulting in a slot conflict:
> 
> app-test/eggs:0
> 
>   ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/eggs-2', 'merge') pulled in by
>     =app-test/eggs-2 required by ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/spam-1', 'merge')
> 
>   ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/eggs-1', 'merge') pulled in by
>     =app-test/eggs-1 required by ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/bacon-1',
> 'merge')
> 
> 
> It looks different, if spam is installed and I try to install bacon
> additionally:
> 
> # emerge -1av bacon
> 
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> 
> Calculating dependencies                ... done!
> [ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
> [ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]
> 
> 
What happens if you use
emerge -1avD bacon

> This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
> spam and thus spam becomes unusable.
> 

Yeah, it does look wrong, but I don't think it is.  Ideally, I suppose
eggs-1 could depend on !=app-test/spam-1 and so on, but that requires
coordination among developers.  I suppose there is a bug in the ebuilds
because they should be set up so that if you have spam installed, you
can't install bacon and so on.
> Regards,
> René
> 
> P.S.: In case it matters: You can find the repository containing the
> trivial ebuilds here: https://code.launchpad.net/~necoro/+junk/test_repo
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> =1RJK
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

Regards,
Ferris
- --
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-28 23:36 [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-05-29  0:11 ` Ferris McCormick
@ 2009-05-29  8:07 ` Patrick Börjesson
  2009-05-29  9:33   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Börjesson @ 2009-05-29  8:07 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 01:36:20AM +0200, René 'Necoro' Neumann wrote:
> Package "spam" rdepends on "=eggs-2".
> Package "bacon" rdepends on "=eggs-1".
> 
> So in theory there should be no way of installing them together (given
> that eggs is not slotted). This works if I try to install them in one go.
> 
> !!! Multiple package instances within a single package slot have been pulled
> !!! into the dependency graph, resulting in a slot conflict:
> 
> app-test/eggs:0
> 
>   ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/eggs-2', 'merge') pulled in by
>     =app-test/eggs-2 required by ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/spam-1', 'merge')
> 
>   ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/eggs-1', 'merge') pulled in by
>     =app-test/eggs-1 required by ('ebuild', '/', 'app-test/bacon-1',
> 'merge')
> 
> 
> It looks different, if spam is installed and I try to install bacon
> additionally:
> 
> # emerge -1av bacon
> 
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> 
> Calculating dependencies                ... done!
> [ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
> [ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]
> 
> 
> This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
> spam and thus spam becomes unusable.

Try: emerge -1av --complete-graph bacon

Unless --complete-graph is specified emerge won't pull in the entire
dependency graph, thus won't notice the dependency-spec of
app-test/spam. 
Using -D combined with the world set when updating your system yields
the same result as that also pulls in the entire dependency graph. 

Unless the entire dependency graph is pulled in emerge only tries to
satisfy the dependencies of the packages given on the commandline, and
since there's no "connection" between app-test/spam and app-test/bacon,
and emerge doesn't do reverse deps when adding something to the
dep-graph, it doesn't notice that app-test/bacon and app-test/spam has
conflicting dependencies

Using --complete-graph is noticably slower since it slows down
dependency calculations, but it should (IMHO) really be the default
since these conflicts shows _before_ anything breaks. 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29  0:11 ` Ferris McCormick
@ 2009-05-29  9:30   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: René 'Necoro' Neumann @ 2009-05-29  9:30 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

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Ferris McCormick schrieb:
>> It looks different, if spam is installed and I try to install bacon
>> additionally:
> 
>> # emerge -1av bacon
> 
>> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> 
>> Calculating dependencies                ... done!
>> [ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
>> [ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]
> 
> 
> What happens if you use
> emerge -1avD bacon
> 

Does not work either.

>> This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
>> spam and thus spam becomes unusable.
> 
> 
> Yeah, it does look wrong, but I don't think it is.  Ideally, I suppose
> eggs-1 could depend on !=app-test/spam-1 and so on, but that requires
> coordination among developers.  I suppose there is a bug in the ebuilds
> because they should be set up so that if you have spam installed, you
> can't install bacon and so on.

I think, this would be the wrong way., as they block each other already
because of the RDEPEND. Else one would have to check the whole tree for
a conflicting RDEPEND and then adding a whole bunch of blocks.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29  8:07 ` Patrick Börjesson
@ 2009-05-29  9:33   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-05-29 16:41     ` Alec Warner
  2009-05-29 20:17     ` Patrick Börjesson
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: René 'Necoro' Neumann @ 2009-05-29  9:33 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

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Patrick Börjesson schrieb:
>>
>> # emerge -1av bacon
>>
>> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>>
>> Calculating dependencies                ... done!
>> [ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
>> [ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]
>>
>>
>> This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
>> spam and thus spam becomes unusable.
> 
> Try: emerge -1av --complete-graph bacon

Ok - this works ... IF spam is in world. If I installed spam with
- --oneshot, it won't work either.

> Unless --complete-graph is specified emerge won't pull in the entire
> dependency graph, thus won't notice the dependency-spec of
> app-test/spam. 
> Using -D combined with the world set when updating your system yields
> the same result as that also pulls in the entire dependency graph. 
> 
> Unless the entire dependency graph is pulled in emerge only tries to
> satisfy the dependencies of the packages given on the commandline, and
> since there's no "connection" between app-test/spam and app-test/bacon,
> and emerge doesn't do reverse deps when adding something to the
> dep-graph, it doesn't notice that app-test/bacon and app-test/spam has
> conflicting dependencies
> 
> Using --complete-graph is noticably slower since it slows down
> dependency calculations, but it should (IMHO) really be the default
> since these conflicts shows _before_ anything breaks. 

I agree.

Regards,
René
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29  9:33   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
@ 2009-05-29 16:41     ` Alec Warner
  2009-05-29 20:17     ` Patrick Börjesson
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Alec Warner @ 2009-05-29 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 2:33 AM, René 'Necoro' Neumann <lists@necoro.eu> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Patrick Börjesson schrieb:
>>>
>>> # emerge -1av bacon
>>>
>>> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>>>
>>> Calculating dependencies                ... done!
>>> [ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
>>> [ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]
>>>
>>>
>>> This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
>>> spam and thus spam becomes unusable.
>>
>> Try: emerge -1av --complete-graph bacon
>
> Ok - this works ... IF spam is in world. If I installed spam with
> - --oneshot, it won't work either.

So don't use --oneshot :)

>
>> Unless --complete-graph is specified emerge won't pull in the entire
>> dependency graph, thus won't notice the dependency-spec of
>> app-test/spam.
>> Using -D combined with the world set when updating your system yields
>> the same result as that also pulls in the entire dependency graph.
>>
>> Unless the entire dependency graph is pulled in emerge only tries to
>> satisfy the dependencies of the packages given on the commandline, and
>> since there's no "connection" between app-test/spam and app-test/bacon,
>> and emerge doesn't do reverse deps when adding something to the
>> dep-graph, it doesn't notice that app-test/bacon and app-test/spam has
>> conflicting dependencies
>>
>> Using --complete-graph is noticably slower since it slows down
>> dependency calculations, but it should (IMHO) really be the default
>> since these conflicts shows _before_ anything breaks.
>
> I agree.
>
> Regards,
> René
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29  9:33   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-05-29 16:41     ` Alec Warner
@ 2009-05-29 20:17     ` Patrick Börjesson
  2009-05-29 22:12       ` [gentoo-portage-dev] " Duncan
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Börjesson @ 2009-05-29 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 11:33:31AM +0200, René 'Necoro' Neumann wrote:
> Patrick Börjesson schrieb:
> >>
> >> # emerge -1av bacon
> >>
> >> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> >>
> >> Calculating dependencies                ... done!
> >> [ebuild     UD] app-test/eggs-1 [2] 0 kB [1]
> >> [ebuild  N    ] app-test/bacon-1  0 kB [1]
> >>
> >>
> >> This second behavior looks wrong to me, as it downgrades the RDEPEND of
> >> spam and thus spam becomes unusable.
> > 
> > Try: emerge -1av --complete-graph bacon
> 
> Ok - this works ... IF spam is in world. If I installed spam with
> --oneshot, it won't work either.

Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
--oneshot for it.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29 20:17     ` Patrick Börjesson
@ 2009-05-29 22:12       ` Duncan
  2009-05-30 11:52         ` Patrick Börjesson
                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2009-05-29 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
22:17:41 +0200:

> Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
> not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
> depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
> be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
> understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
> installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
> --oneshot for it.

I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to 
worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual 
packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.

But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.  
Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every 
update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to, 
keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me 
aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a 
different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is 
up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I 
ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware", 
or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.

But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean 
list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide 
whether I want to keep or remove them.

If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a 
similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he 
didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he 
didn't want in @world.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29 22:12       ` [gentoo-portage-dev] " Duncan
@ 2009-05-30 11:52         ` Patrick Börjesson
  2009-05-30 13:46           ` Duncan
  2009-05-31 11:21         ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  2009-06-03 19:22         ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Börjesson @ 2009-05-30 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:12:43PM +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
> 20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
> 22:17:41 +0200:
> 
> > Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
> > not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
> > depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
> > be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
> > understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
> > installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
> > --oneshot for it.
> 
> I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to 
> worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual 
> packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.
> 
> But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.  
> Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every 
> update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to, 
> keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me 
> aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a 
> different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is 
> up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I 
> ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware", 
> or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.
> 
> But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean 
> list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide 
> whether I want to keep or remove them.
> 
> If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a 
> similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he 
> didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he 
> didn't want in @world.

Indeed i can see the reason for using --oneshot for packages you possibly
only want installed for a limited time period, but as --complete-graph is
limited by definition to the world set, you can't expect emerge to
consider the dependencies of a leaf-package installed with --oneshot
(when using --complete-graph of "-D @world").

It's a weigh-off between having an easy time pruning your system and
having emerge calculate a "correct" dependency graph for your entire
system. As far as emerge is concerned, a leaf package installed with
--oneshot isn't reachable through the dependency graph, thus its
dependencies shouldn't be accounted for. 




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-30 11:52         ` Patrick Börjesson
@ 2009-05-30 13:46           ` Duncan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2009-05-30 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
20090530115251.GC11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Sat, 30 May 2009
13:52:52 +0200:

> It's a weigh-off between having an easy time pruning your system and
> having emerge calculate a "correct" dependency graph for your entire
> system. As far as emerge is concerned, a leaf package installed with
> --oneshot isn't reachable through the dependency graph, thus its
> dependencies shouldn't be accounted for.

Exactly.  I've no argument with --complete-graph working how it works as 
that's entirely logical.  I was simply answering the question, why would 
someone use --oneshot for a leaf package?

Ideally there's only one or two sets of trial install packages at any one 
time anyway, they were all installed at the same time either together or 
after having run a --pretend with them together so there were no known 
conflicts at that time, and they're taken care of one way or the other by 
the time of the next emerge -uDN @world (which is seldom >5 days, here, 
and more often I've reconciled within a couple days, unless one of the 
leaf packages is being stubborn and won't build for some reason, because 
a not fully reconciled, revdep-rebuilt and --depcleaned system /bothers/ 
me!) so it has no chance of messing them up because they're either part 
of it or unmerged.

FWIW, FEATURES=buildpkg /does/ make life easier, too, because if there's 
a "trialware" leaf package that won't build, I can simply unmerge the 
dependencies temporarily, thus getting back to a fully reconciled system, 
and come back to it when I have more time to trace the bug down, or when 
there's movement on the bug if I'm depending on that.

So yes there's reason to sometimes not have a dependency branch "covered" 
with an @world leaf, but there's no reason that should affect normal or 
even complete @world deps calculations, and indeed, I'm happy that it 
doesn't, as that would only throw in additional complications I don't 
want or need.

But I'm wondering, is there possibly some method of doing the same 
complete-graph thing for the @installed set?  I can't imagine ever using 
it or for that matter @installed in any form here as it just doesn't fit 
my admin style (as should be self-evident from the above), but since 
that's effectively what we're talking about...

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29 22:12       ` [gentoo-portage-dev] " Duncan
  2009-05-30 11:52         ` Patrick Börjesson
@ 2009-05-31 11:21         ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  2009-05-31 14:31           ` Duncan
  2009-06-01  3:58           ` Alec Warner
  2009-06-03 19:22         ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Marijn Schouten (hkBst) @ 2009-05-31 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Duncan wrote:
> Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
> 20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
> 22:17:41 +0200:
> 
>> Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
>> not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
>> depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
>> be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
>> understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
>> installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
>> --oneshot for it.
> 
> I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to 
> worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual 
> packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.
> 
> But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.  
> Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every 
> update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to, 
> keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me 
> aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a 
> different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is 
> up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I 
> ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware", 
> or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.
> 
> But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean 
> list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide 
> whether I want to keep or remove them.
> 
> If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a 
> similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he 
> didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he 
> didn't want in @world.

I think this is an interesting use-case. It would be very simple to handle it by
introducing an additional file that the package manager would use to record the
packages that are installed on trial-basis. This would make it possible to
include these packages in dep-calculations, while still distinguishing them from
packages that are in @world. Of course you can also fake it by creating a local
virtual/trialware package (or possibly a @trialware group) of which you edit the
deps, but this would be less convenient. For my personal workflow using -1 for
trials is working well enough, atm.

Marijn

- --
If you cannot read my mind, then listen to what I say.

Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-31 11:21         ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
@ 2009-05-31 14:31           ` Duncan
  2009-06-01  3:58           ` Alec Warner
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2009-05-31 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

"Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> posted
4A22682A.1050206@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Sun, 31 May 2009
13:21:14 +0200:

> Duncan wrote:

>> For leaf packages [-1] serves as a sort of test install.
>> Experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the
>> --depclean list for anything from a few minutes to a few days,
>> until I decide whether I want to keep or remove them.

> I think this is an interesting use-case. It would be very simple to
> handle it by introducing an additional file that the package manager
> would use to record the packages that are installed on trial-basis.

Interesting idea.  -1 is working well enough for me here I hadn't even 
thought of adding a proper trialware list.  But I could see it being 
quite useful for those who don't know portage well enough to realize that 
-1 for a leaf package effectively does make it trialware.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-31 11:21         ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  2009-05-31 14:31           ` Duncan
@ 2009-06-01  3:58           ` Alec Warner
  2009-06-01  5:42             ` Duncan
  2009-06-03 11:05             ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Alec Warner @ 2009-06-01  3:58 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
<hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Duncan wrote:
>> Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
>> 20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
>> 22:17:41 +0200:
>>
>>> Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
>>> not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
>>> depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
>>> be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
>>> understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
>>> installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
>>> --oneshot for it.
>>
>> I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to
>> worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual
>> packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.
>>
>> But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.
>> Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every
>> update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to,
>> keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me
>> aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a
>> different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is
>> up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I
>> ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware",
>> or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.
>>
>> But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean
>> list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide
>> whether I want to keep or remove them.
>>
>> If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a
>> similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he
>> didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he
>> didn't want in @world.
>
> I think this is an interesting use-case. It would be very simple to handle it by
> introducing an additional file that the package manager would use to record the
> packages that are installed on trial-basis. This would make it possible to
> include these packages in dep-calculations, while still distinguishing them from
> packages that are in @world. Of course you can also fake it by creating a local
> virtual/trialware package (or possibly a @trialware group) of which you edit the
> deps, but this would be less convenient. For my personal workflow using -1 for
> trials is working well enough, atm.

Why is a custom set less convenient?

>
> Marijn
>
> - --
> If you cannot read my mind, then listen to what I say.
>
> Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
> <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-06-01  3:58           ` Alec Warner
@ 2009-06-01  5:42             ` Duncan
  2009-06-03 11:05             ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2009-06-01  5:42 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> posted
b41005390905312058p314e6e1bnda50488d56ba0800@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Sun, 31 May 2009 20:58:27 -0700:

> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
> <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think [trialware install] is an interesting use-case. It would be
>> very simple to handle it by introducing an additional file that the
>> package manager would use to record the packages that are installed on
>> trial-basis. This would make it possible to include these packages in
>> dep-calculations, while still distinguishing them from packages that
>> are in @world. Of course you can also fake it by creating a local
>> virtual/trialware package (or possibly a @trialware group) of which you
>> edit the deps, but this would be less convenient. For my personal
>> workflow using -1 for trials is working well enough, atm.
> 
> Why is a custom set less convenient?

I read it as...

>> [manually] creating a local virtual/trialware package (or possibly
>> a @trialware group) of which you
>> edit the deps, but this would be less convenient. 

The key word being the one I supplied, "manually".

IOW, individuals could manually create the functionality currently, but 
this would be less convenient than if portage shipped with the trialware 
group functionality, no matter how it was implemented.

IOW, manual creation isn't as convenient as having it a normal part of 
portage would be.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-06-01  3:58           ` Alec Warner
  2009-06-01  5:42             ` Duncan
@ 2009-06-03 11:05             ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  2009-06-03 19:19               ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-06-07  9:08               ` Alec Warner
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Marijn Schouten (hkBst) @ 2009-06-03 11:05 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alec Warner wrote:
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
> <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Duncan wrote:
>>>> Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
>>>> 20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
>>>> 22:17:41 +0200:
>>>>
>>>>> Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
>>>>> not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
>>>>> depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
>>>>> be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
>>>>> understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
>>>>> installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
>>>>> --oneshot for it.
>>>> I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to
>>>> worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual
>>>> packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.
>>>>
>>>> But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.
>>>> Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every
>>>> update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to,
>>>> keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me
>>>> aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a
>>>> different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is
>>>> up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I
>>>> ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware",
>>>> or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.
>>>>
>>>> But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean
>>>> list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide
>>>> whether I want to keep or remove them.
>>>>
>>>> If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a
>>>> similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he
>>>> didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he
>>>> didn't want in @world.
> I think this is an interesting use-case. It would be very simple to handle it by
> introducing an additional file that the package manager would use to record the
> packages that are installed on trial-basis. This would make it possible to
> include these packages in dep-calculations, while still distinguishing them from
> packages that are in @world. Of course you can also fake it by creating a local
> virtual/trialware package (or possibly a @trialware group) of which you edit the
> deps, but this would be less convenient. For my personal workflow using -1 for
> trials is working well enough, atm.
> 
>> Why is a custom set less convenient?

Well, instead of "emerge --trialware package" you would first have to edit your
@trialware set and then "emerge @trialware". The same goes for when you want to
remove some trialware.
Perhaps some generalization of --trialware along the lines of
- --add-to-set=trialware could be fleshed out as a useful extension of portage.

Marijn

- --
If you cannot read my mind, then listen to what I say.

Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-06-03 11:05             ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
@ 2009-06-03 19:19               ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2009-06-07  9:08               ` Alec Warner
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: René 'Necoro' Neumann @ 2009-06-03 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Marijn Schouten (hkBst) schrieb:>
>>> Why is a custom set less convenient?
> 
> Well, instead of "emerge --trialware package" you would first have to edit your
> @trialware set and then "emerge @trialware". The same goes for when you want to
> remove some trialware.
> Perhaps some generalization of --trialware along the lines of
> --add-to-set=trialware could be fleshed out as a useful extension of portage.
> 
> Marijn

Well - and you also need to keep in mind to clean the set from time to
time ... instead of just having a --depclean run

- - René
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-05-29 22:12       ` [gentoo-portage-dev] " Duncan
  2009-05-30 11:52         ` Patrick Börjesson
  2009-05-31 11:21         ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
@ 2009-06-03 19:22         ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: René 'Necoro' Neumann @ 2009-06-03 19:22 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Duncan schrieb:
> Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
> 20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
> 22:17:41 +0200:
> 
>> Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
>> not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
>> depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
>> be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
>> understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
>> installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
>> --oneshot for it.
> 
> I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to 
> worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual 
> packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.
> 
> But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.  
> Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every 
> update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to, 
> keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me 
> aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a 
> different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is 
> up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I 
> ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware", 
> or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.
> 
> But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean 
> list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide 
> whether I want to keep or remove them.
> 
> If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a 
> similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he 
> didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he 
> didn't want in @world.
> 

Well ... as one can probably see from the package names, I was just
testing whether portage actually checks RDEPENDs of installed packages
or not ;) (if it does not, Portato does not need to either ;))

And I often use -1 w/o even thinking about it

- - René
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-06-03 11:05             ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
  2009-06-03 19:19               ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
@ 2009-06-07  9:08               ` Alec Warner
  2009-06-07 11:30                 ` Duncan
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Alec Warner @ 2009-06-07  9:08 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)<hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Alec Warner wrote:
>> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
>> <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Duncan wrote:
>>>>> Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> posted
>>>>> 20090529201741.GB11660@nexon.nexus, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 May 2009
>>>>> 22:17:41 +0200:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why exactly would you want to use --oneshot for a "leaf package" that is
>>>>>> not depended on by any other package in the world set? If spam IS
>>>>>> depended on by any other package (recursively) in the world set, it will
>>>>>> be pulled in by --complete-graph, but that's not the case here if i
>>>>>> understand it correctly, thus it's a package that you explicitly wanted
>>>>>> installed, thus it belongs in the world set, and you should thus not use
>>>>>> --oneshot for it.
>>>>> I use -1 by default, here (via scriptlet), mainly so I don't have to
>>>>> worry about cluttering up my world file while emerging individual
>>>>> packages, just as I always use -NuD with my @system and @world runs.
>>>>>
>>>>> But for leaf packages, it serves as a sort of test install as well.
>>>>> Since I always do revdep-rebuild -p and emerge --depclean -p after every
>>>>> update (typically 2-3 times a week), then rebuild and clean as I need to,
>>>>> keeping the "trial merges" on the depclean list for a few days keeps me
>>>>> aware of them.  If I know it's something I want to keep, I run a
>>>>> different scriptlet without the -1, but that's not often once a system is
>>>>> up and running with the normal working set merged.  Meanwhile, I
>>>>> ultimately either emerge -C (or let depclean handle it) the "trialware",
>>>>> or emerge --noreplace, thus adding it to world.
>>>>>
>>>>> But experimental installs and their deps typically sit in the --depclean
>>>>> list for anything from a few minutes to a few days, until I decide
>>>>> whether I want to keep or remove them.
>>>>>
>>>>> If he was testing how the switches under discussion here worked and has a
>>>>> similar policy, I could easily see him using -1 by habit, even if he
>>>>> didn't explicitly reason that it was a test and therefore something he
>>>>> didn't want in @world.
>> I think this is an interesting use-case. It would be very simple to handle it by
>> introducing an additional file that the package manager would use to record the
>> packages that are installed on trial-basis. This would make it possible to
>> include these packages in dep-calculations, while still distinguishing them from
>> packages that are in @world. Of course you can also fake it by creating a local
>> virtual/trialware package (or possibly a @trialware group) of which you edit the
>> deps, but this would be less convenient. For my personal workflow using -1 for
>> trials is working well enough, atm.
>>
>>> Why is a custom set less convenient?
>
> Well, instead of "emerge --trialware package" you would first have to edit your
> @trialware set and then "emerge @trialware". The same goes for when you want to
> remove some trialware.
> Perhaps some generalization of --trialware along the lines of
> - --add-to-set=trialware could be fleshed out as a useful extension of portage.

I like sandwiches too, so perhaps we can have a
--sudo_make_me_a_sandwich option to emerge?

But seriously, this is linux.  If users want do deal with "a set of
packages that are like trialware" then they should use the sets
functionality that emerge already ships with.  emerge
--add-to-set=blah might be passable but IMSHO emerge has plenty of
options already and users can easy write their own wrappers for this
kind of thing.  Emerge doesn't need every tiny feature built into it.

>
> Marijn
>
> - --
> If you cannot read my mind, then listen to what I say.
>
> Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
> <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-portage-dev]  Re: Conflicting RDEPENDS
  2009-06-07  9:08               ` Alec Warner
@ 2009-06-07 11:30                 ` Duncan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2009-06-07 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-portage-dev

Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> posted
b41005390906070208t5d6b552aid928af4ef76f6673@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Sun, 07 Jun 2009 02:08:30 -0700:

> I like sandwiches too, so perhaps we can have a
> --sudo_make_me_a_sandwich option to emerge?

That'd make a great easter egg option (to go along with "emerge moo")! 
=:^)

The output could be "OKAY", and a link to http://xkcd.com/149/, and a 
hint that the option works best with -v.

The -v version could add an ascii sandwich.

Then put it in the help output (only, no manpage mention), with no 
explanation, just the notation "Try it! =:^)"

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2009-06-07 11:31 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-05-28 23:36 [gentoo-portage-dev] Conflicting RDEPENDS René 'Necoro' Neumann
2009-05-29  0:11 ` Ferris McCormick
2009-05-29  9:30   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
2009-05-29  8:07 ` Patrick Börjesson
2009-05-29  9:33   ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
2009-05-29 16:41     ` Alec Warner
2009-05-29 20:17     ` Patrick Börjesson
2009-05-29 22:12       ` [gentoo-portage-dev] " Duncan
2009-05-30 11:52         ` Patrick Börjesson
2009-05-30 13:46           ` Duncan
2009-05-31 11:21         ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
2009-05-31 14:31           ` Duncan
2009-06-01  3:58           ` Alec Warner
2009-06-01  5:42             ` Duncan
2009-06-03 11:05             ` Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
2009-06-03 19:19               ` René 'Necoro' Neumann
2009-06-07  9:08               ` Alec Warner
2009-06-07 11:30                 ` Duncan
2009-06-03 19:22         ` René 'Necoro' Neumann

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